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Round 2: visible_villain vs schrodingers dog: Psychological Health For Physical Health?
The topic for this debate is "Psychological Manipulation Of The Public Is Justifiable To Insure Physical Security."
visible_villain will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Source : OP
Physical security is the protection of personnel, hardware, programs, networks, and data from physical circumstances and events that could cause serious losses or damage to an enterprise, agency, or institution. This includes protection from fire, natural disasters, burglary, theft, vandalism, and terrorism.
"The government's use of Psyops on its own population for the purpose of optimizing national security is ok."
Jesus said "...you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
I see my opponent has chosen to bypass a substantive approach as it relates to his debate position in his opening post.
Source : schrodingers dog Prologue
... my opponent could be in the midst of a psychological ruse against yours truly ...
The Star-Spangled Banner
O! say can you see by the dawn's early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming.
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming.
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
United States Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ...
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph Goebbels
Maya in Hindu philosophy
In Advaita Vedanta philosophy, Maya is the limited, purely physical and mental reality in which our everyday consciousness has become entangled. Maya is held to be an illusion, a veiling of the true ... Many philosophies or religions seek to "pierce the veil" of Maya in order to glimpse the transcendent truth, from which the illusion of a [phenomenal] reality springs ...
In the end my, my opponent is in ... a no win situation.
Socratic Question 1:
You are championing the position that "Psychological Manipulation Of The Public Is Justifiable To Insure Physical Security."
My question is: Justifiable by whom?
... I am really going to end up looking like the bad guy ...
My question is: Justifiable by whom?
Answer - "The Nation."
Nationhood is an ethical and philosophical doctrine and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism; a nation is a form of self-defined cultural and social community.
Though "nation" is also commonly used in informal discourse as a synonym for state or country, a nation is not identical to a state. The people of a nation-state consider themselves a nation, united in the political and legal structure of the State. 1
PSYOP alone may offer the opportunity to compel the enemy to do our will without fighting, both horizontally and vertically across the spectrum of conflict. . . . Give opponents alternatives to conflict. If the enemy no longer resists, he will do our will. 2
I will leave it to the readers and judges to decipher what this most ambiguous and deeply unsatisfactory response is pointing to.
What is a Nation
1. "Two men are of the same nation if and only if they share the same culture, where culture in turn means a system of ideas and signs and associations and ways of behaving and communicating.
2. "A mere category of persons (say, occupants of a given territory, or speakers of a given language, for example) becomes a nation if and when the members of the category firmly recognize certain mutual rights and duties to each other in virtue of their shared membership of it."
[which] occurs when a child learns the attitudes, values, and actions appropriate to individuals as members of a particular culture.
... is the term used by B.F. Skinner to describe the effects of the consequences of a particular behavior on the future occurrence of that behavior. There are four types of Operant Conditioning: Positive Reinforcement, Negative Reinforcement, Punishment, and Extinction.
In Loco Parentis
The term [is] Latin for "in the place of a parent" or "instead of a parent," refers to the legal responsibility of a person or organization to take on some of the functions and responsibilities of a parent.
Durkheim's Ideal Education
1. To reinforce social solidarity - Pledging allegiance: Makes individuals feel part of a group and therefore less likely to break rules.
2. To maintain social role - School is a society in miniature. It has a similar hierarchy, rules, expectations to the "outside world". It trains young people to fulfill roles.
3. To maintain division of labor - School sorts students into skill groups, encouraging students to take up employment in fields best suited to their abilities.
It is in essence a way of convincing others under false pretenses ...
Psychological manipulation in any form is disingenuous, hostile, propagandistic, aggressive, violating, and deceitful.
SQ1 - Other than the perpetrators, psychological manipulation of the public is justifiable by whom?
A commander-in-chief is the commander of a nation's military forces or significant element of those forces.
The term "commander-in-chief" (president) derives from the Latin imperator. Imperatores (commanders-in-chief) of the Roman Republic and Roman Empire possessed imperium (command) powers.1
In Positive Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of experiencing a positive condition.
In Negative Reinforcement a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of stopping or avoiding a negative condition.
In Punishment a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of experiencing a negative condition.
In Extinction a particular behavior is weakened by the consequence of not experiencing a positive condition or stopping a negative condition.2
Operant conditioning is the use of consequences to modify the occurrence and form of behavior. Operant conditioning is distinguished from classical conditioning (also called respondent conditioning, or Pavlovian conditioning) in that operant conditioning deals with the modification of "voluntary behavior" or operant behavior.3
SQ1. Would you agree that a three year-old's mom is his Commander-In-Chief?
Hem no, I would not agree.
SQ2. Would you agree that parents are justified in using operant conditioning ( short of extinction, of course ) to train their three year-old to stay out of the busy road ?
Operant Conditioning is by definition psychological manipulation and as such is both reprehensible and unjustifiable in this fighter's humble opinion.
SQ3. Just as parents are the traditional guardians of their children at least during the period of their primary socialization while still living in the family household, would you agree that Clans, Tribes, and Nations each have their own corresponding traditional roles of highest authority?
My opponent is obviously attempting to confuse the issue of nurturing and socialization of a child with the overt acts of governmental and institutional psychological manipulation of the public.
I once more will answer my opponents question once more with a resounding No!
... defining the four elements of Operational Conditioning deduced from rat testing ...
DOES THE NEGLIGENCE PENALTY INCREASE TAXPAYER COMPLIANCE?
B.F. Skinner (Science and Human Behavior, Macmillan, NY 1953) conducted thousands of studies to better understand the parameters of operant conditioning. Punishment, in the case of the IRS the use of penalties and audits, is intended to teach citizens to avoid non-compliant tax behavior, or to teach citizens to become compliant taxpayers. Most behavior modification systems are built on operant conditioning models.
BEHAVIORAL CONSEQUENCES OF REWARD REGARDING EMPLOYEE ABSENTEEISM IN AN INDUSTRIAL SETTING AN OPERANT CONDITIONING APPROACH
Certainly the work of B.F. Skinner (1953) has been the fountainhead for most of the studies using operant conditioning as a means to alter employee behavior (Nord, 1969).
EXERCISE: HOW SHOULD MERIT RAISES BE ALLOCATED?
“Behavioral Consequences Of Reward Regarding Employee Absenteeism In An Industrial Setting: An Operant Conditioning Approach” [Kustin , 1981], and “Executive Bailout At Shake & Spear, Inc.” [Sanders, Veiga and Yanouzas, 1984].
Selecting a better carrot: organizational learning, formal rewards and culture--a behavioral perspective.
Operant conditioning is the process by which behavior is modified by manipulation of the contingencies of the behavior (Bushardt, Fowler, and Debnath, 1988; Organ and Hamner, 1982; Skinner, 1971; Skinner, 1969) ... "The culture continuously monitors behavior and offers timely rewards through the members of the organization who mete out rewards and sanctions" (Bushardt & Fowler, 1987, pp. 33-34). Future rewards tend to be administered to members of a culture on a variable ratio reinforcement schedule and sanctions tend to be administered on a continuous reinforcement schedule ... (Rodriguez, Perez, and Pardo del Val, 2003).
An Operant Analysis of Prompting in a Sales Environment
Customers who did not order french fries were used as subjects and either did or did not receive a purchasing prompt depending on their treatment condition. The results demonstrated that prompts are associated with a significant increase in consumer purchases.
... abstract constructs such as nationalism ...
In mathematics, a self-similar object is exactly or approximately similar to a part of itself (i.e. the whole has the same shape as one or more of the parts) ... [they] show the same statistical properties at many scales.
Scale invariance is an exact form of self-similarity where at any magnification there is a smaller piece of the object that is similar to the whole.
The People tend to unconsciously trust authority, at whatever scale of social organization, because of those imprints established between the infant and its mother during the first eighteen-months of childhood.
1. That psychological manipulation of the public is and has been effective in insuring its physical security.
2. That psychological manipulation of the public is not only necessary but the only way to insure the public's physical security because, considering the historical cost to humanity of such manipulations, only the above reasons would make such cost "justifiable."
Jesus said "...you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
Round 1: Opening Statements
9-8 Schrodinger’s Dog
I cannot believe I actually read the whole story about your argumentative style, but something about Tibetan Monks always grabs my attention. So that was interesting to say the least. Also, I do not believe I have ever actually seen anyone use the word utility in a sentence. Well done.
On to my judging of the first round:
Opening rounds generally don’t affect my points at all, but I do need to get some idea of what people are going to be discussing. I suppose that is what visibile_villian was doing also – trying to confirm the topic. I won’t dock too many points for it.
Also, schrodinger’s dog, have you ever seen this study? Mostly just kidding, but seriously, tone it down a bit. I hate looking up every other word. And I’ll be damned if I know any French.
Round 2: Rebuttals and Support
10-8 Schrodinger’s Dog
My first impression, and I am judging this as I go, is that visibile_villian is a bit unsure of how to tackle the objective presented. It is a tough topic, but much of what he has relayed so far would be better to keep to himself, such as the relating his position to that of the Nazis. Perhaps, and maybe we were all thinking it, but the last thing you should do is confirm it for us. At this point, since you have told me your position is akin to the Nazis, you have to convince me that the Nazis had it right.
Schrodinger’s Dog had a fantastic reply. The only word I can use to describe his style so far: blunt. My favorite style.
Quote of the Round:
Originally posted by Schrodinger’s Dog
The cumulative historical death toll, to the degree that it can even be accurately calculated, for Soldier/Civilian/Genocide deaths is: Lowest Estimate = 306,351,885, Highest Estimate = 736,637,812
Round 3: Rebuttals and Support
10-10 Tie (Great job both)
Immediately visible_villian comes out with some fire by redefining nation. I must say that was impressive. Overall, after reading the post, visible_villian appears to have rebounded completely and turned this debate back onto the offensive.
Schrodinger’s Dog did exactly as I have come to expect, and quickly deflected his opponent’s attacks and responded by going straight back on the offensive. Due to this, I must call this round a tie. Good job by both fighters.
No quote of the round. The winner goes to one of visible_villian’s sources.
Round 4: Rebuttals and Support
This was fairly similar to the last round. Both fighters did a good job attacking their opponent, but I left it at 9-9 because I felt each of them were missing something that round. I agree with Schrodinger’s Dog that visible_villian needed to take his connection of school and home to a more grand social view.
Wow. Visible_villian absolutely smashed it that round. Unfortunately, due to the first two rounds, visible_villian could not catch schrodinger’s dog. I would, however, like to convey that this debate started out luke warm and finished with a bang. Both fighters:
Well done. Impressive battle. Congrats to schrodinger’s dog for my vote.
Quote of the Debate
Originally posted by visible_villian
Just because statesmen and politicians, or the ruling class, if you will, have learned how to hack into our ring-zero kernels through the use of the supremely effective method of psychological manipulation doesn't make it unjustified.
Judgment for: shrodingers dog
An interesting topic for debate the could have easily, in my opinion, been blown wide open into an epic battle. Unfortunately visible_villain's newness to debating forays seemed to stall him quickly and too long. He did make some worthwhile points and progress later in the match with his points on Operational Conditioning as well as the Mother/Child analogy. But he never stretched far enough to make them work and never overcame the greatest obstacles in presenting a winning argument.
In this case, in my opinion, the overcoming of at least one obstacle could well have been achieved with broadening rather than narrowing of the topic's elements. In particular the concept on "manipulation" which is a broad word with rather narrow, and negative, connotations. Opening up the root word, manipulate, to its primary and broadest definition might have served to gain more ground.
I appreciate his attempt to find common ground on which to battle with his opponent, but with the privilege of opening, may have been better served by staking an immediate claim and setting the tone.
But this rings out a lack of experience rather than ability and so I personally will look forward to visible_villian's future debates as he finds his footing and chooses his tactics more carefully. And hopefully without painting himself as a Nazi next time.
Schrodingers dog did not simply rest on his laurels though and presented fine rebuttals even if his point were largely unmet, though that again may have been a lack of experience on his opponents part. So while visible_villian do lose the match through his lackluster arguments, schrodingers dog equally won the match with his counters and attacking arguments.
But this rings out a lack of experience rather than ability and so I personally will look forward to visible_villian's future debates as he finds his footing and chooses his tactics more carefully.