Jesus giving his life is no big sacrifice, page 3
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reply posted on 9-3-2009 @ 05:52 AM by -0mega-
reply to post by smallpeeps


Excellent post, not just because of the explanation, but because it also reveals an aspect of life that applies to more than just jesus and his suffering.

I guess what you asked here about faith in jesus and whether he suffered or not, could apply to many many things.

And I think that this is also the question people need to ask themselves to find out if they truly respect / love / admire anyone, from jesus to lovers to the bum on the corner of the street.

Don't admire a man for his actions or standing, admire him for who he is.

(Spellfix xd)

[edit on 9/3/09 by -0mega-]


reply posted on 9-3-2009 @ 08:00 AM by Supercertari
reply to post by Daniem

The crucifixion is indeed a moment with many questions and probably as many answers. That it was an historical and saving act is dogmatic “how” it was saving is a source of great and varied discussion as theologians and believers try, in yet another arena, to get some proximity to the ineffable will of God.

I’ll offer a few points here in response to the OP. First, and most directly, is did Jesus know resurrection was inevitable? The Gospels present a tremendous picture of Christ’s own thoughts on the cross as represented in his prayer. For Jesus the Psalms were, as for all religious Jews, his prayer book. Much as we have our prayers which we know “by heart” they would have been known to Christ. In the moment on the cross where Christ cries out “Eli Eli lama sabacthanni” we need to appreciate what the evangelists were telling us. In the time before the psalms were numbered they were known by their first words (much as we talk about the “Our Father”, “Hail Mary” etc.). When, as in Matthew 27:46 it is noted he said this it is telling us that Christ prayed this psalm – reading that psalm ourselves today gives some idea of Christ’s turmoil and purpose – Psalm 22 I hope you give it a read and note the internal dialogue of the person praying: a dialogue between awful suffering and praise of God which concludes in trust of God’s will for the self and for future generations. Did Jesus know, or, was it belief? I think this apparently passing moment in the passion narrative shows it was a belief, but of a greater quality than anything we might hope to emulate.

Another scriptural reference of particular note is found in Philippians 2:6f. This is an early Christian “hymn” written down by Paul which expresses the “kenosis” of the incarnation, the self-emptying of Christ into the world – up to and beyond death “even death on a cross.” The whole of the incarnation is the obedience of the Son to the Father and the Son’s absolute separation from the Father for humanity. It leaves us with the question of whether Christ was, on the cross, the archetype for humanity not being “punished” as such by a vengeful Parent but having that which is incompatible with God, sin, conquered in absolute selflessness. Or, if He was the absolute example to humanity of obedience to the Father’s will. Or, if He was the absolute example to humanity of God’s love for it. All are perhaps true.

This self-pouring does not, in ancient tradition, end with the death on the cross it continues in the descent into hell, where the Soul of Christ continues on its “downward” journey into the very depths of history in the sojourn with the dead. The 20th Century theologian, Von Balthasar, explores this in great detail and it is found (beautifully imo) expressed in an ancient, but anonymous, homily long used in the prayer of the Church on Holy Saturday, its really worth giving this a read Ancient Homily In this Christ goes to the furthest reaches of the underworld to find the first, to find Adam and there says to him:

I command you: Awake, sleeper, I have not made you to be held a prisoner in the underworld. Arise from the dead; I am the life of the dead. Arise, O man, work of my hands, arise, you who were fashioned in my image. …
For you, I your God became your son; for you, I the Master took on your form; that of slave; for you, I who am above the heavens came on earth and under the earth; for you, man, I became as a man without help, free among the dead; for you, who left a garden, I was handed over to Jews from a garden and crucified in a garden.
‘Look at the spittle on my face, which I received because of you, in order to restore you to that first divine inbreathing at creation. See the blows on my cheeks, which I accepted in order to refashion your distorted form to my own image.
'See the scourging of my back, which I accepted in order to disperse the load of your sins which was laid upon your back. See my hands nailed to the tree for a good purpose, for you, who stretched out your hand to the tree for an evil one.


Christ, on the Cross, becomes sin to plumb the depths of sin and go to its very source and reverse the exile from God. It is obedience, redemption and sacrifice all according to God’s will.

I would agree with the second poster on this thread and recommend a reading of the whole Scripture to discern the answer to that opening question. It is, to a believer, quite stunning. God creates in love and in those first moments of creation walks with His love in the Garden until the moment when disobedience leads His love to eat of the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” – and note the name of this tree and what the first response to eating of its fruits is. The first act is not an act of “evil” it is an act in response to the “knowledge of Good” – the created feels shame in the presence of the absolute Goodness of the Creator – the exile begins when they hide from the absolute Goodness of the Creator, they deny themselves the status of God’s “other” of being “His beloved.” Sin is always turning one’s back on God and, so evidently, a manifestation of a selfishness which denies that we are “His”. It is humanity turning from Him and refusing to be identified in that relationship with Him which is our purpose. Instead of rejoicing in being “His love” we turn away and petulantly claim “I am not Yours!, I’m not Your anything!, I am my own man/woman.” In the incarnation the God upon whom we have turned our back rushes through our humanity to stand in our line of sight and says to us “if you won’t be Mine, I’ll be yours.” In the cross, and the Eucharist, this giving of Himself to us is literally putting Himself into our hands. Can we continue to reject Him? Turn our back on both and face into the abyss instead? – Evidently yes. But love always has to be free, we are not compelled to love God, or be convinced by the evidence.


reply posted on 9-3-2009 @ 09:16 AM by spellbound
reply to post by Daniem


I can see you have no nose and no mouth - that explains it. The whole point of Jesus is that he suffered so that people like you and me could (maybe) be redeemed.

Would you like to have a crown of thorns literally nailed into your head, then carrry a back-breakingly heavy cross to a place where you would then have nails hammered into your wrists and ankles until you died, blessing the people who had done this to you?

I think not.



reply posted on 9-3-2009 @ 11:03 PM by Christ!
Originally posted by Daniem
Understand it those who can.

Does anyone have more of these weird nonsensical examples of christian belief?


The saving quality of the cross is in rightly interpreting it.
The cross is a parable enparody.
A parable is worthless unless it is interpreted correctly and the lesson learned is applied meaningfully.
Here, then, is the meaning of the cross and resurrection, briefly put.

The cross and resurrection speaks of the alpha and omega of time.
The cross is how the world of time begins.
The resurrection is how the world of time ends.
The days spent in the tomb symbolize all of time.
Time is a tomb from "womb to tomb".
What is born in time is "born to die".
And what can die was never truly alive.
To Jesus, death and sleeping were similar concepts.
Resurrection is the sign of awakening.
The world begins as the Son of God seems to sleep and dream.
He dreams of his attributes opposed by opposites.
So, for example, he dreams of "life" and "death".
He is eternal, so he dreams of life and death forever...hence, reincarnation.
Resurrection is waking up from the life/death cycle.
Resurrection is a state of mind.
Resurrection restores mind to its original state.
Resurrection is the opposite of sacrifice.
The cross is symbolic of sacrifice.
The world begins with the death of truth...conceptually.
So, the world is a sacrifice of truth.
Where there is not truth, there is suffering.
So, the world is "Christ crucified".
That is, the cross is a symbol of the world...and what it does to the Son of God.
The world is a dream in the mind of the Son, which seems to destroy his mind.
The resurrection of Jesus is prophetic.
It promises that the Son of God will awaken from the dream of death that is the world.
And when he does, the world will "pass away".
There is one dream and one dreamer.
The Son of God, Truth and "Christ" are terms that mean the same thing.
All are crucified with Christ.
Therefore,
All will awaken in Christ.
Awake, all will understand themselves to be Christ.
This is what it means to go "through Christ".
One must identify with Christ in order to wake up.
Jesus identified with Christ and "rose from the dead".
It is a sign that he had awakened from the dream.
Note well: Jesus was awakened and "alive" before the cross-resurrection sequence.
The cross-resurrection-ascension sequence were teaching aids for others to "follow".



Christ!






[edit on 9-3-2009 by Christ!]


reply posted on 9-3-2009 @ 11:06 PM by YouAreDreaming
reply to post by Christ!


I will have to agree that life is a dream, and that we are dreaming reality into being.

All of us are part of this grand dream, each of us dreamers contributing our own self-expression into the greater objective dream we call reality.


reply posted on 9-3-2009 @ 11:14 PM by Christ!
Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
reply to post by Christ!


I will have to agree that life is a dream, and that we are dreaming reality into being.

All of us are part of this grand dream, each of us dreamers contributing our own self-expression into the greater objective dream we call reality.



Indeed.
Reality alone is safe, secure, unchanging, and...heavenly.
Reality is beyond imagination.
So, any kind of imagining beyond reality is going to yeild an ugly experience.
And that is why the world is nasty.
It is an imaginative stunt that dreams of all that is...*as if it were different than it is*.
Thus, the world is *different* from reality.
What is different from what is real?
A dream...an illusion...imagination...wishful thinking...delusion...deception.

Christ!


reply posted on 9-3-2009 @ 11:39 PM by Christ!
Once my two previous posts are hosted within one's mind, it may be possible comprehend this third lesson.

The resurrection miracle is something Jesus contributed to the "atonement".
Everyone has something to contribute to the "atonement".
The resurrection provides information which enables the atonement to begin and proceed to its conclusion.
The atonement is the regathering of the Son of God, scattered to the four winds due to self-denial [self-sacrifice].
The atonement is about restoring the oneness of the Son of God.
Forgiveness is the fuel that enables atonement to reach its conclusion.
The resurrection provides an intellectual basis for true forgiveness.
Essentially, the resurrection says that the Son of God is unharmed.
If the Son of God is unharmed...then there is no guilt...none are guilty.

You see,
Deep down, everyone in the world feels they have harmed the Son of God.
I'm talking about the Son of God, for whom which Jesus acted enparody.
This is not much understood because it is repressed, dissociated, denied and stuffed down into mental compartments in the collective unconscious.
Guilt is stuffed down into mental compartments.
And guilt demands punishment.
Belief in guilt is the basis of all self-sabatoging scenes and scenarios and circumstances in the world.
But if the truth is that guilt is a lie, then what?
The resurrection basically asserts that guilt is a lie because the Son of God is unharmed.
The Son of God is unharmed by the dream he has about himself.
We are all that dreamer, individually and collectively.
When we can understand that guilt is a bogus concept, we can base true forgiveness.
And when we are able to forgive, we enable the atonement to come to completion.
All must forgive all for everything...if anyone is to escape the hell we have dreamed up.
We must forgive because what we have dreamed is utterly untrue.
No one is guilty for anything.
We have all worked together to prove guilt is the truth.
Now,
We must all work together to prove that guilt is a lie.
Jesus contributed evidence that suggests just this.
There remains much more evidence to suggest.
When everyone suggests what evidence he can, guilt will be proved to be a lie.
When guilt is proved to be a lie, the basis of the world will begin to shake to its very foundation.
And the world will fall...for a lie cannot stand forever.
When the world falls, the Son of God will be revealed, standing there, unharmed, unchanged, where he always was, is, and ever shall be.

Christ!





[edit on 9-3-2009 by Christ!]


reply posted on 10-3-2009 @ 12:16 AM by debris765nju
Chapter XXXVIII - "When 5500 years are fulfilled. . . ."

1 After these things the Word of God came to Adam, and said to him: --

2 "O Adam, as to the fruit on the Tree of Life that you have asked for, I will not give it to you now, but only when the 5500 years are fulfilled. At that time I will give you fruit from the Tree of Life, and you will eat, and live forever, you, and Eve, and your righteous descendants.

3 But these forty-three days cannot make amends for the hour in which you transgressed My commandment.

At this period of time, Adam and Eve had been evicted from Eden for forty-three days each which they spent praying for forgiveness and it was not enough time. Jesus was dead less than three days and the church claimed that was enough time. Adam and Eve were told they had to remain dead for 5500 years before they were rresurrected 3 Again said God to Adam, "All this misery that you have been made to take on yourself because of your transgression, will not free you from the hand of Satan, and will not save you.

4 But I will. When I shall come down from heaven, and shall become flesh of your descendants, and take on Myself the infirmity from which you suffer, then the darkness that covered you in this cave shall cover Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of your descendants.

5 And I, who am without years, shall be subject to the reckoning of years, of times, of months, and of days, and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of men, in order to save you." One of the interesting passages i found was God taking on the weakness of Adam and verse 5 seems to suggest a much longer time then three days. Other text seems to suggest that God must suffer "death" year for year the time Adam and Eve lived. These text are from The Book of Adam and Eve, pseudegraphia of the old testament. This is the basis of my metaphysics and the explanation of why Christ hasn't made an appearance in nearly 2000 years.


reply posted on 10-3-2009 @ 12:18 AM by B.A.C.
Originally posted by Daniem
reply to post by XXXN3O


Im a member of the christian church and have had classes on religion and christianity since i started school as a kid. I was in the gospel for a while also.

So i have heard enough to form my own opinion. Can you explain it to me if i got it wrong?


Daniem, come on now.

Christian Church - won't teach you anything personally.
Classes on religion - won't teach you anything personally.

wait for it.....wait for it.......

Try the Bible, that'll do it.

Explain it to you? If you were sincere in that statement I would. God shall not be tempted.

God Bless.


reply posted on 11-3-2009 @ 01:38 PM by Daniem
reply to post by B.A.C.


I dont know how they do it where you're from, but they didnt teach me their opinion in church, the church tought me songs and bible verses and stories.

The classes on religion taught the same, but more on facts about religions in general.

Now people can MAKE meaning out of ANYTHING if they wanted to.. but i choose to take the sane route.


reply posted on 11-3-2009 @ 01:53 PM by telepathicjon
reply to post by Daniem


Jesus Christ is the son of God (The Holy Spirit in that became flesh) so he is equal with God. Jesus was killed in a very horrible manner, but he himself had commited no wrong, he was paying the penalty for our wrong so He took our death upon himself because he loved us so much and did not want to kill us. I don't know if a man could suffer more than Christ did. He will be with us if we choose to follow him and repent of our sins. But, if we deny his free gift he will deny us, and we will not recieve eternal life in the kingdom of Heaven. Love God, Love Eachother, and to never be anything but Loving is all that God requires, and He himself will give you strength. May the God of our salvation bless with his spirit in your heart


reply posted on 11-3-2009 @ 02:01 PM by B.A.C.
Originally posted by Daniem
reply to post by B.A.C.


I dont know how they do it where you're from, but they didnt teach me their opinion in church, the church tought me songs and bible verses and stories.

The classes on religion taught the same, but more on facts about religions in general.

Now people can MAKE meaning out of ANYTHING if they wanted to.. but i choose to take the sane route.


You hammered that square on the nail. It's a choice, nothing more.

[edit on 11-3-2009 by B.A.C.]


reply posted on 15-3-2009 @ 01:12 AM by hulkbacker
Originally posted by Daniem
God in the form of a human, (Jesus) gave his life and was cruzified.

Now.. when you KNOW that if you sacrifice your life; you'll immediatly get a NEW life (an eternal life), and omnipotent power, THAT'S not realy a big sacrifice is it?

I'd do it if i knew what he knew.


you know, as a Christian, I have often wondered the same thing. I mean, its not like Jesus' didn know how it would all turn out. But still...
I don't think that negates the suffering. I think the greatest suffering came from his temporary alienation from God. I mean, this guy has co-existed as the Logos with God from before the universe existed, then he has to become the embodiment of all that he is NOT (sin) in order to satisfy Gods wrath, and allow for the Justice to take place. I think his physical torture was secondary.

He sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself. God wouldn't forgive us, so he killed someone who didnt deserve it (jesus), and THEN he could forgive us. He in the form of what, god?, jesus? I lost it


I'll admit, it does sound sort of weird when you word it like that.

[I just spen the last hour typing up an explaination of the Christian faith from creation, to the fall, to the advent, to crucifixition, resurection and the judgement only to realize...
1) too much information is unnecessary
2) i didn't have enough characters to fully explain each point in the detail needed.
3) it incorporates the understanding of some concepts that Christian thinkers have struggled with for millenia (Trinity, freewill/predestination)

So I'll just narrow it down to this....
Gods the greatest thing ever. He wants you to acknowledge this. THE CHIEF GOAL OF ALL CREATION IS TO GLORIFY GOD!
Theres a gap between you and God that you can't overcome. You just aren't good enough for God. You don't DESERVE God. God wants you to understand that he's the only one that can overcome that gap.

- God wants you to know that the only way you will ever be right with him is if HE COMES TO GET YOU. God wants you to see these facts and acknowledge the only way you and He can co-exist is if He comes to your level, you CANNOT ascend to His. You must accept that God can, and has, done what you could never do. You must put your faith in what God has done, not what you can do.

-This is a reaffirmation of what "Adam and Eve" denied in the Garden of Eden. They partook of fruit in an attempt to "be like God". When anyone sins, they remove God from his rightful posistion and put themselves in that place. They equate themselves with God.

- Likewise, all religions are attempts to equate man with God. To make man in some way be "good enough" for God. Its another way falling for the lie that we don't need God. Any religous code that says "do X,Y and Z.... and your in!" is just like saying "eat this fruit and you will be like God". Its denying that we just AREN'T good enough for God, and reinforces that "yes we can be good enough for God".

- God wants you to know your just worthless scum, and you got nothing in of yourself that makes you desirable to him. You CAN'T do it. Your NO GOOD. And its YOUR FAULT, that your this way. Now bow down and worship him for the fact that he even gives a crap about you, and that he bothers to care enough for you that he would even seek a relationship with you.

- You can look at what Jesus did on the cross as somehow symbolic for what God can do for us. He'll bite the bullet and accept our worthlessness. JUST understand and recognize that GOD ALONE deserves the honor and credit for restoring our relationship with him. We can't do it no matter how strict a moral code we adhere to.
Religion= we can be like God.
Atheism= I'm my own God
Christianity = we CANNOT be like God. But God loves us despite this. we accept God as our God and admit our proper subjugate role to him.





[edit on 15-3-2009 by hulkbacker]
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