When does a group belief become a cult and why?

Originally posted by RedCairo
To a great degree, something being a cult is not like being dead or pregnant, it's not merely either/or. For example, the initial 'requirements' for something being a cult (as quoted in OP) involve money, but I have known tons of really obvious, textbook case cults that did not involve money, and whose recruitment if any was very limited.

Very good post. Your right not all cults involve money, just because a guru is not asking for money does not mean he/she isnt running a cult. Also as you say just because recruitment numbers are low still does not mean it is not a cult.

Cultism is a spectrum, a sliding scale if you will; it starts with 'rapport' and goes toward 'group think' and continues into 'clique' and escalates into 'cult-ish' and finally into 'cult'.

I agree. I think this is exactly how a cult is formed!

One of my main hobbies is in a field where this kind of thing is rampant. It comes in degrees and most groups have some elements and not others, but in the end it comes down to "when leader-worship goes bad" (which is, you won't be surprised to know, easily correlated to when the leader is an egomaniac).

It's a rather sad thing. People really get sucked in so hard sometimes that you realize you just can't get them out. They need to be "deprogrammed" as much as any Moonie ever needed.

It is one of the hardest things in the world to "deprogramme" cult members, some are so far gone its almost impossible, infact for some it IS impossible. When this point is reached, when they have passed a point and are beyond the voice of reason it is very sad. It could be said this is the point of no return for them and unless the cult breaks down I can see the only thing that is left to help them is themselves.

I believe that those who want to leave cult, can't do that because they are unable to give a meaningful answer to question "Why".

It is their own ignorance that makes them paralyzed.
And cult and its leader are not helping them, of course. They have the same problem, don't they?

reply to post by DangerDeath


Thank you for your links. I have learned a lot.

Orthodox Buddhism is an oxymoron IMHO. Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha, clearly stated that everybody has to find his/her own way. Following "traditional" doctrine is an exercise in philosophy, not Buddhism. I know you disagree here, but I just wanted to present a different view.

Nichiren Buddhism is centered around the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni's last teaching before his death. I would say it's the most 'liberal" of the Sutras. It states that everybody, lay people and monks, can attain enlightenment in this lifetime. We don't need a priesthood (monks) to guide us there. No middleman needed. Theravada Buddhism has a different view.

PS: I think you may need to update your knowledge about your own branch of Buddhism re past lives and forest monks. Here is a Wiki quote:

"These powers include the attainment of Nibbana, mind-reading, supernatural power over material objects and their own material bodies, seeing and conversing with gods and beings living in hell, and remembering their past lives."

How can they remember it when, according to you, all that data is lost at death?

BTW: We should take this to private mail, since it's not related to the topic at hand.


[edit on 5-3-2009 by Nichiren]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

I am not a Scientologist.

I am a Solist Mystic.

If you want to learn more about that, as I am not at liberty to provide links in here, go to my profile, scroll down, and click on the left link to my Life Lessons page.

Thats right Mr Richards your not a scientologist but you still are a cult leader. Your solist mystics is a cult.

Solist Mysticism is a benign cult of people who strive to live by The Golden Rule, who use the innovative approach to raising consciousness called Heart Chakra Radiance - the effectiveness of which has been validated by people on an individual basis - and we channel spiritual guidance from discarnate Saints who have a fellowship which they call The Society Of Light.

Why do you not tell people this when they enquire about your "fellowship"? I have seen many posts in ATS where you deny you run a cult. Many members over the years as they have become confused by your teachings have openly asked "is this a cult?" and you have always said NO. Now either you are a cult leader or you arnt.

This thread is about cults and the truth, now please can you give us your truth? Nothing wrong with being the cult leader of a "benign cult" as long as you are truthful at the start with your potential members.

Because when true gods and Gods emerge – along with The Original Creator who will be invited here by future Ascended Masters – it will end all the false god hierarchies of Group Entities. All the “ascended masters” of the cults on Terra will be exposed to be nothing more than discarnate collectives of angels at best, not true gods in any sense of the word

Who are these true gods that you talk of to emerge, who are the future Ascended masters who are to invite the original creator? why would the original creator need an invite from an ascended master?

Which false ascended masters of terra cults are you meaning. Jesus? Buddha maybe? If not these then who?


comments please.
I have asked for cult leaders members and ex members to comment on my thread I just didnt realize one was actually here

The following technique/process for raising consciousness was relearned by Supreme Elder Avadar - when he was a Magi in his formative years - with the help of discarnate Saints in the early 1980s. It is called Heart Chakra Radiance (HCR) and has also been referred to as Chakra Radiance and God Yoga. The reason why it was relearned in the body after many years is because it was discovered by him after a period of intense study of the Universal Memory or Akashic Records in the Higher Realms of Spirit. This occurred during his Interlife (or period in-between incarnations) after his life as a Cathar Parfait named Marie when he was more advanced as a Saint than he was after his life as Paul/Saul of Tarsus. HCR was slowly discovered as opposed to invented because it is essentially the approach that The Original Creator utilized in order to evolve into rarefied God Consciousness.

Im very interested in the Akashic records, as many are. How did you reach them? Are you saying you reached them after your previous life as Paul Tarsus from the bible?

St Paul of Tarsus

Paul set the tone for Christianity, including emphasis on celibacy and theory of divine grace and salvation, as well as eliminating the circumcision requirement. It was Paul who called the New Testament euangelion, 'the gospel'.
Paul met James, the brother of Jesus, and Peter, the Apostle, in Jerusalem. He then went on to Antioch where he converted Gentiles. This helped make Christianity a universal religion.

If you are the re incarnation of St Paul, who helped make christianity a religion, why do you now say Jesus was not even an ascended master?

Is Paul even your real name or did you change it ( after the discarnates gave you the insight to who you had been) to reflect your past life incarnation as St Paul? Just wondering as its a big coincidence.

Very interesting all this no.





[edit on 5-3-2009 by headlightone]

reply to post by headlightone


Good questions. I hope he can answer being it's what the topic of this thread is about, and what you asked of at the onset.

One I'd like to ask about is what the T&C rules apply to specifically:

1 e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:

i) You will not use your membership at The Above Network, LLC site(s) for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not post, use the chat feature or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.

and ...

You will not attempt to use your membership to encourage or lure other members in any way to other websites ...

Do the above rules not apply to PR's advertising of his SOL website? He mentions it in almost every post. Should it include an ammendment to the rules about soliciting people to join causes like his, if this rule is excluding such practices? Or have I taken this out of context?

I don't mean to be out of line asking this, I don't run this site. In keeping with the topic at hand here, I simply ask out of genuine concern, particularly when some of his followers are (or at least were) minors.


[edit on 5-3-2009 by violet]

OP,

I just realized that my last post has nothing to do with your thread. Sorry! I will take it to a private exchange.

All the best.

Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

Thank you for your links. I have learned a lot.

Orthodox Buddhism is an oxymoron IMHO. Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha, clearly stated that everybody has to find his/her own way. Following "traditional" doctrine is an exercise in philosophy, not Buddhism. I know you disagree here, but I just wanted to present a different view.

Nichiren Buddhism is centered around the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni's last teaching before his death. I would say it's the most 'liberal" of the Sutras. It states that everybody, lay people and monks, can attain enlightenment in this lifetime. We don't need a priesthood (monks) to guide us there. No middleman needed. Theravada Buddhism has a different view.

PS: I think you may need to update your knowledge about your own branch of Buddhism re past lives and forest monks. Here is a Wiki quote:

"These powers include the attainment of Nibbana, mind-reading, supernatural power over material objects and their own material bodies, seeing and conversing with gods and beings living in hell, and remembering their past lives."

How can they remember it when, according to you, all that data is lost at death?

BTW: We should take this to private mail, since it's not related to the topic at hand.


[edit on 5-3-2009 by Nichiren]

I really don't know. Maybe they can remember. My emphasis was on understanding the underlying principles, which is crucial knowledge for such a feat. Whether there is concrete contents of this or that kind is irrelevant.

Buddhist tradition is full of legends and that part doesn't really interest me. It is all speculation.

I think this belongs to this thread simply because we are interested in learning more about personal development. The thread can easily be exhausted by simply finding the proper definition of cult.

If you want, you can start a new thread.

reply to post by violet


I was going to ask are cults allowed to recruit on ATS, but you answered my question “Thanks”

The next question is why are ATS allowing this, probably none of my business but I am just looking out for other people. Good job we have members like headlightone who picked up on this, I have seen things like this get out of controll and people end up getting hurt and confused.

Just my opinon on the matter.

DangerDeath

Just like to say thanks for them really intresting post, I really enjoy reading what you have to say. I have added you as a friend

Originally posted by IamNow
reply to post by violet

 

I was going to ask are cults allowed to recruit on ATS, but you answered my question “Thanks”

The next question is why are ATS allowing this, probably none of my business but I am just looking out for other people. Good job we have members like headlightone who picked up on this, I have seen things like this get out of controll and people end up getting hurt and confused.

Just my opinon on the matter.

ATS depends on members reporting such things. There is a button there...

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by Nichiren
reply to post by Paul_Richard

 

What attracted you to Scientology? Just curious ... In my part of the world we're hearing horror stories about dependency and financial exploitation.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

I am not a Scientologist.

I am a Solist Mystic.

If you want to learn more about that, as I am not at liberty to provide links in here, go to my profile, scroll down, and click on the left link to my Life Lessons page.

Our main technique for raising consciousness, which many do without being part of our International Fellowship, is called Heart Chakra Radiance (HCR).

We don't chant and our method of prayer is also somewhat different than traditional approaches.

Although I have asked for cult members to come and discuss their experiences I did not set this thread as a cult recruitment ground.
I set this thread as a forum to discuss how a group becomes a cult.You are giving an indirect link to your cult [Which you have admitted to on an earlier ATS thread] By all means come on here and discuss what its like to be a cult leader but do not advertise your cult through me!!!

Solist Mysticism is a benign cult of people who strive to live by The Golden Rule, who use the innovative approach to raising consciousness called Heart Chakra Radiance - the effectiveness of which has been validated by people on an individual basis - and we channel spiritual guidance from discarnate Saints who have a fellowship which they call The Society Of Light.

Benign or malign your still a cult. Stop advertising on my thread I dont like it.



MODS is this even allowed in ATS T & C? I await a MODs reply because I really really dont like this type of indirect manipulation.

You know I could get angry about all this. I joined ATS in search of aliens, who they were, what their intentions were but somehow I found myself recieving spiritual awarness from Paul Richards.

Before I knew it I had been recruited into TSOL.

What followed was a year of pain. There is no other word to describe it.

I forgive you Paul. I hold no anger towards what you did to me. That way you have no hold on me what so ever.

Please do not return under a new avatar.

I would also publically like to thank headlightone for his work on this thread.

[edit on 5-3-2009 by Mr Green]

On another site, I encountered a spiritualist who worked with a group of people who helped 'gifted' children; you know, like psychic kids and related. They also helped the parents, because of the upsetting nature of such gifts. What he said they did was 'shut down access portals' so the children could no longer maintain their etherial encounters: yet, he had such gifts that he used to stop this in others. I asked him about it.

He said he 'hated to do it,' but it was the short version for help, as many were experiencing all sorts of related traumas, an inkling of which you can see posted on many threads here on ats. I could only say that I thoroughly disagreed with such practice, as it was the same thing as short-circuiting these children's spiritual evolutional potentials: the fear and the danger is part of confronting this awakening within, and learning about dealing with it.

When this got a little deep, he admitted that this knowledge should be taught at a very young age to all children as part of their school curriculum.

So, what was established is that not just children, but all others, especially the younger generation (teens, twenties), should have access to training in the spiritual-related fields. Even basics are a requisite. Yes, yes, can of worms.

The method to this madness is, would this not end up just like religious dogma, who should teach, what methods should be developed, what directions should be taken, etc. Can of worms. So, cults fill this vacant field of instruction, but in an unobserved capacity. No control, and here is the crux of the matter: much quickly attains 4th dimensional reality, where all sorts of inconceivable strangeness and abuse potentialities not just exist, but occur. Regularly. It may not even be consciously done as a two-way flow: the students may be victims of one-way awareness, which is often what happens.

This field of inquiry, these conceptual statements, cannot be resolved easily here, but one thing is certain:

Religious dogma is beyond evil even in our modern times; benevolence is a hiding of truth, for on Earth, the saying that even 'descending angels are quickly corrupted,' is true: benevolence hides much truth, in most cases. Don't make me prove it to you: my sister was a nun in the St. Scholastica Convent, who's library I much pursued. The horror stories I heard, read and learned from her & her fellow apprenticing nuns were stomach turners, just like we hear about on the news (the behind the scenes stories). Forget benevolence: it is a sham, including any loving innocent 'Buddhistic' benevolence: lies and shams: religious dogma.

Religious dogma I speak about endlessly here on ATS: it is a crutch, a tool for the mediators, who are no angels. Cult dogma is just the same, as we have shown here on this thread: it is merely a matter of size and sophistication, not principle.

The answer, oh gentle and wise members of humanity (presumably)?

There is no answer. Like a lotus who's roots grow from the muck and mire, so are all humans: not all are flowers, many are weeds of a noxious sort.

So, when throwing blame and pointing fingers, we certainly must be aware of this, for that finger & blame is being reflected right back at those who cast blame upon others, by the mirrors of the universe, which are certainly alive.

The message is this: Groom yourself, Defend yourself, and always break out of each new box enclosure you discover. Don Juan and Carlos Castaneda argued this self-same concept over and over, until finally, Carlos learned it was don Juan who had won the argument: Freedom.

Freedom is alive and illusive: it whispers and recedes, but once seen or felt, it is pursued to the utmost. The only way to capture this Freedom is to submit to it's ruthless dictates, which it whispers to each listener: Death, with possibility of Rebirth, with possibility of Resurrection.

[edit on 5-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

Originally posted by SS,Naga

So, what was established is that not just children, but all others, especially the younger generation (teens, twenties), should have access to training in the spiritual-related fields. Even basics are a requisite. Yes, yes, can of worms.

Yes Naga you are right look what you can buy on CD over the internet now, Its becoming quite evident that psychic attack is the new mugging or specialised weaponry. Its not just children Its adults also that need educating now!!

www.hypno-success.com...

btw I tried to paste the relevent parts of this site but it was copy right protected so I had to provide you with the full link. Im not advising anyone to buy this CD, Im just highlighting whats out there and what we as people need to be aware of can be aimed at us.

Remember you can be psychically attacked even if your thousands of miles away from an individual as this site shows.



[edit on 5-3-2009 by headlightone]

reply to post by headlightone


$297.00 on CD

reply to post by headlightone

Cute, and such a deal! It's worth it just to get the free bonus offered!

Well, I did post regarding this in one of my quotes (this thread). We all know or should know about psychic attack, which is more than just energyflow, but energetic vehicle encounter of all kinds.

If anybody falls for stuff like this, I suggest they have plenty of extra energy in their bank, because they are going to need it.

The spiritualist I spoke of in my previous post said he was once attacked by three shadow being entities, who were trying to enter his aura field. He said he fought them all off, and I told him at his first moment of unconsciousness, they would have returned, being what they are.

But this is the Greater Realm, and the reason so many are kept from entering it with courage: no knowledge. It is perhaps a quandary that the only way Out of this concentrated super-surrounding evil, is Through it.

You can't sprout from your shell and expect somebody else to do your growing for you.

[edit on 5-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by Mr Green


What is TSOL?

A cult?

Run out of steam?

I would like to remind you, especially the young ones, how important it is to travel and collect energy which will add to your personal charge for the rest of your lives, and even increase as the time goes by.

I wrote this poem to capture the impressions from my trips back in the eighties.
It is amazing how such impressions still fuel all my efforts.

Enjoy.



outstanding figurines


at Acropolis you take off veil
electric winding clicks, and flashes turned off
great stones of Greece, marble souls;
what you do see is transparent
as ribs under skin, and robe
and sushi downtown where we first met
in lights of darkened sky. do you know,
in Paris, there is, soul of stone
and in Athens, here, in busy streets
your white knuckles pressing glass
and your eyes, stilled
at Acropolis. and down you go
into the navel of tabernacle
lips pressed on candle, and your skin
smooth as marble, somewhere
lost in ethers of myths. there among lindens
scattered, my eyes haunt outstanding figurines…
and you hurry over cobblestones…
and here on sunset boulevards
where my grave is, your visions,
dreams.

OK I have a minute...my boss went to lunch.

I like some cults. Now I was in a Gnostic group for 10 years, I dont they
would have considered it a cult but.....no money it was donation only, however there was a definite if you leave your karma will catch up to you, you will no longer be under the law of grace BS! Now it was a really good school. We studied all the esoterics, you name it. We had to adhere to very strict rules in the meditation room and strict attendance. I still always question the instructor when I felt it needed and I question everything. I choose what it is I want to believe at all times. If I want to believe Self Realization comes from Sponge Bob Square Pants then I will. So anyway that teacher introduced us to a new teaching but concealed its source (that weren't to cool) I liked the new teaching and so I left that group and started studying this other teaching, which I still like.

In the Gnostic group we were told not to accept anything taught there but to know it ourselves through direct experience. Now is that a cult? Maybe, I dont know and dont really care, it served me.

The group I study now most likely considered a cult, I also dont care. I like what I experience through my own experiences. So as to cult or not to cult. I think it depends on the persons strength of character but NEVER drink the koolaid!

However good work Headlightone, I believe this thread accomplished its purpose! wink wink

Typo

[edit on 5-3-2009 by cindymars]