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When does a group belief become a cult and why?

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posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by hypervigilant
 





I worked in the mental health field at the time and there were a lot of people that were on psychiatric units that were being convinced that they were victims of "ritualistic abuse" by accredited mental health professionals.... A lot of life's were ruined by those people.


They most certainly have been victims of huge manipulation (ritualistic abuse).
I've met people from both side of the line.




posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by DangerDeath
 


Agreed.

(Hope that wasn't too symbolic!)



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by DangerDeath

Hey, Ive heard actors speak like this many times.
They say, once they get into the costume, they are completely different person!


For cult members I dont think its as easy as just removing one set of clothes and putting on another. But yes I have heard that actors remain in character for the duration of say a play even when they are at home as its just easier that way. then at the end of the plays run they return to their real self but often find this difficult for the first few weeks.



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by DangerDeath

Hey, Ive heard actors speak like this many times.
They say, once they get into the costume, they are completely different person!


For cult members I dont think its as easy as just removing one set of clothes and putting on another. But yes I have heard that actors remain in character for the duration of say a play even when they are at home as its just easier that way. then at the end of the plays run they return to their real self but often find this difficult for the first few weeks.


This is why rituals were invented. They are a form of meditation with precise goal to focus one's attention on certain "mode" of behavior or existence. Exterior and interior of buildings (temples, shrines, other important buildings) also serve the same purpose.

Wearing a three piece suit is the same kind of "accomplishing identity"



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by DangerDeath
Wearing a three piece suit is the same kind of "accomplishing identity"


Why do cults almost always seem to have some strange or freeky dress sense anyway? Im thinking robes here mainly but Im sure there are many, its just you think cult you think strange dress. You know the sort of thing you just would NOT dare go out in (or have I been watching too many devil worship films here
)

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Mr Green]



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by Mr Green
 



Love your avatar btw, Im a fan! ( see my signature and you should know why with an avatar like that )


Yea I have read and seen (Powers of the Internet) most of Eckhart’s work, he seems to be one of the very few spiritual teachers who does not get you involved in some form of meditation to become awakened in the Now. The image in my Avatar is a simple reminder to give me a heads up if I veer into constant thinking and analyzing during my time online on ATS.

So thanks glad you like it, you can use it too if you see my avatar spring up in topics, nothing like a “Now” check from time to time



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by Mr Green
 



You know the sort of thing you just would NOT dare go out in


Hehe I could sure think of a few things, but you will either laugh or just think "WoW he just said that" so I will give it a miss. I would u2u you but think I have to post a few times first or something.




posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by DangerDeath
Wearing a three piece suit is the same kind of "accomplishing identity"


Why do cults almost always seem to have some strange or freeky dress sense anyway? Im thinking robes here mainly but Im sure there are many, its just you think cult you think strange dress. You know the sort of thing you just would NOT dare go out in (or have I been watching too many devil worship films here
)

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Mr Green]


Well, that's why I think the "agenda" is important. Just a nice dress will just make you feel nice


It has to be some kind of trigger, a "spirit catcher", something to push you into certain mode. And also extract you from some "ordinary" mode, make you "different".
Basically, those robes are uniforms, a sign of belonging, order, single mindedness, etc.



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by DangerDeath
It has to be some kind of trigger, a "spirit catcher", something to push you into certain mode. And also extract you from some "ordinary" mode, make you "different".
Basically, those robes are uniforms, a sign of belonging, order, single mindedness, etc.




Maybe so but they arnt very fashionable are they! I also think it may be so they feel more comfertable with their replaced names like brother this and brother that. Far easy to accept some cult name when your dressed in strange robes and head dresses.



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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Ritual symbolism is the nature of worship entrainment.

Humanity is different today, due to the evolutional changes it has undergone. At any early stages (how many are left open to the unknown), what constituted humanity was different than what we know today. Their minds were structured different, and operated in ways that are not just forgotten, but unknown (e.g., bicameral mind hypothesis et al).

It is an unspoken agreement among scientists that superstiition was predominant among early peoples: not to say I know for certain, but myself, am convinced that these earlier peoples (stages and cultures) could feel forces extraneous to their physical senses (at least the 5 generally in acceptance today).

Ritual symbolism enabled coherency of agreement amoung groups or types. It is with us to this day, and just as hard to break free of (belief systems or 'box awareness'). The highly intelligent mental types have a tendency to poo-poo this, when they themselves are also blindly subject to it, although with a newer set of symbolistic rituals (e.g., fields of research and their 'formulas').

Dare I upset everyone? Everyone belongs to some type of 'cult' belief, and will often fight to the death for their accepted beliefs, regardless whether they lead to true inner freedom, or not. Don Juan said everybody was 'quite mad,' and also that 'everything one did, was an addiction.' Thus he taught 'not-doing,' something out of the ordinary behavior modes, which Carlos maintained was just another group of 'rules.'

What's being discussed here, I think, is not just what consists of cultism, but cultism that is entirely malicious. However, when you dig deeper, they are all malicious...it's just a matter of time. That's why life in the material is so bloody and cruel: it boils over, beyond acceptable levels of behavior. That is, the bigger groups' 'acceptable levels.' In fact, all life has an insidious inherent property that is called 'levelling.' This is the very nature of energy. Families members do it; world cultures do it. Hmmm, wonder what the NWO is all about..?

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SS,Naga]



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by DangerDeath
 

Remember: all religions start out as "cults" to the vast majority of the population.

Christianity started out as a "cult" in Pagan dominated Rome.

I have attended Bahai meetings and an old friend of mine used to embrace that faith.

As a spiritual medium back in the 1980s, I also at times channeled Bahai energies (guides).

I refer to them as a benign or benevolent cult because they are not a mainstream religious organization, yet also not inherently evil like the malevolent or destructive cults I listed.



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by SS,Naga
 





Hi would it be really off topic for me to ask you to explain in simple terms what the archetypes of humanity are? Sorry if its something everyone else knows about but Ive seen them posted of before and all I seemed to get was shapes? Are they shapes? I re read your post and I cant see any reference to them directly.


Hi SS,Naga did you miss this or did you feel it was off topic? Thanks.



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by hypervigilant
The word "cult" seemed to mean something entirely different than the presently accepted definition. ... Remember when rock bands, certain sports cars, motorcycling, bicycling and anything of interest to a small minority was said to have a "cult following"....

You're quite right.


There is also the variation of definition whereby one can have a "cult following."

For example, the mentalist Criss Angel is said to have a cult following.


Originally posted by hypervigilant
I think that it was in the eighties that there became confusion between the words"cult " and "occult" in minds of the "religious right"... During this period there were Psychiatrist writing books on Satanism, Witchcraft, ritualistic child abuse and occult practitioners such as Free Masons and even religions that deviated from mainstream practices.... I worked in the mental health field at the time and there were a lot of people that were on psychiatric units that were being convinced that they were victims of "ritualistic abuse" by accredited mental health professionals.... A lot of life's were ruined by those people.

The word "occult" really means "that which is hidden."

Churches that are into strict control of their congregations tend to label anything outside their sect a cult. For example, there have been fundamentalist Christian groups in the past and present that label Catholicism a cult.



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
With some groups you notice the subtle beginnings of a cult when they start feeling better than others, start using their own specialized vocabulary and definitions and dont take scrutiny very well.


Yes, fostering and promoting delusions of grandeur within the cult and using specific terminology to label 'outsiders' in a negative context is never a good sign.

Also,hyper sensitivity/childish insecurity towards any criticism of group opinion (reinforced by violent action) is also indicative of an unhealthy and dangerous 'cult mentality'.

Zysin 5 posted this great short film a while ago which deals with the techniques employed to
manipulate,control,indoctrinate,condition and brainwash cult members.
Its an interesting watch


Cheers


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
reply to post by DangerDeath
 

Remember: all religions start out as "cults" to the vast majority of the population.

Christianity started out as a "cult" in Pagan dominated Rome.

I have attended Bahai meetings and an old friend of mine used to embrace that faith.

As a spiritual medium back in the 1980s, I also at times channeled Bahai energies (guides).

I refer to them as a benign or benevolent cult because they are not a mainstream religious organization, yet also not inherently evil like the malevolent or destructive cults I listed.






Okay, we stick to "cultivating" meaning of the word cult.

Early Christianity is different from institutional Christianity (starting with Constantine proclaiming it a state religion).
In early Christianity there was no vertical hierarchy, it was a "horizontal" community. They were all equal and there was no distribution of power among them. They had teachers in the same manner Jesus was considered a Teacher.
I think this horizontal organization was the main reason they were prosecuted, simply because they didn't recognize authority as of "this" world.
That changed with the work of Roman agent Saul (St. Paul) who organized them into a church, thus "organizing" them vertically, and later they "advanced" and "entered" history.
Organizing Christians simply meant establishing control over them.

As of Baha'i, I only met one of them, long time ago. He was kind of globe trotter missionary, walking barefooted, and I was in high school then. He impressed me so much (not that I understood why), but "he" comes back to me more and more of lately - I guess I have advanced to his spiritual level and we are now pretty close


And I base my judgment of them just on that experience. But it is quite accurate?



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by SS,Naga
 


Hi SS,Naga did you miss this or did you feel it was off topic? Thanks.


No, I went back to find it, and got caught up in a couple posts. Sorry.

Archetypes are too complex for this threads' theme topic, I feel. I can discuss it elsewhere, but you can also google the word archetypes with the word 'Plato' or 'Jung,' and get plenty of info.

Ultimately, I recognize sacred geometric forms as prime archetypes. The Prime Forms deal with the initiatory stages of emanational energies, such as 'the One,' 'the Two' (duality), 'the Three' (trinity), etc. The world's people, past and present, gave endless names to these archetypal forces. And if you do the google search, you will find that the rabbit hole runs deep, until you end up right back here.

ARCHETYPES: A UNVERSAL LANGUAGE OF MANKIND

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SS,Naga]



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by karl 12
Zysin 5 posted this great short film dealing with the techniques employed to
manipulate,control,indoctrinate,condition and brainwash cult members.
Its a good watch


Cheers


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]


Very good video. Id urge all to watch it its got what a cult is down to a T.(even the wierd clothes!) Do you know on which thread Zysin posted this?



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 07:02 PM
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My favorite archetype: T'Pol

(Although not very well developed by irresponsible script writers...)

This archetype confronts "unaffected logic" (Vulcan logic) and affections (emotions, as well as with ideas, concepts).

The unaffected (pure) personality corrodes and dissipates under the pressure of affections - because it "wanted" to explore.

Writers of that series (Enterprise) didn't really have a clue how to finish what they've started.

- Was T'Pol going to form a monogamous "unit" with Trip? (that was one stereotype concept). -

Of course, spiritual essence of personality does not look for unity in formal relationship, which basically splits personality.

Personality, being an expression of force, is one and same for everyone (like the symbol of Christ or Buddha).
Force, as the metaphysical, cannot be discerned.

So, this archetype is probably the most important of all, because it tells us that compromise is not possible between these two forms of existence.

One is either a Personality, or is a split-personality - incomplete.

We know that we cannot really unite with each other as long as we perceive as separate beings.

So the true unity must be attained on a different level of existence. It can be attained through our experience of both realities and then discarding the one reality in which we are separated by the particular point of perception - normally called EGO.

Of course, similar to the T'Pol archetype is the archetype of Eros and Psyche - which cannot, shouldn't, be "perceived" by senses - that is, it has to be experienced as unity.



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by karl 12
 


Excellent movie! I feel I don't live up to my full potential





Also,hyper sensitivity/childish insecurity towards any criticism of group opinion (reinforced by violent action) is also indicative of an unhealthy and dangerous 'cult mentality'.


However, this hypersensitivity is not just childish insecurity experience. It will happen to everyone once hshe tries to debunk the prescribed way of life, without establishing a secure foundation for the new way of life, thus becoming open to all kinds of influences (like in that movie) and unable to give proper response.

One may easily lean towards paranoia and experience strong anxiety.

But, in this case, it is not unhealthy. It takes time to establish a new interpretation system, so one has to learn patience in the first place.

Castaneda wrote extensively about this and in one place called it "fighting for one's soul".



posted on Mar, 3 2009 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by DangerDeath
Okay, we stick to "cultivating" meaning of the word cult.

Early Christianity is different from institutional Christianity (starting with Constantine proclaiming it a state religion).
In early Christianity there was no vertical hierarchy, it was a "horizontal" community. They were all equal and there was no distribution of power among them. They had teachers in the same manner Jesus was considered a Teacher.

Early Christianity was greatly fragmented and divided, with various sects emphasizing different aspects (and also scripture of their own) in different regions of the Mediterranean and surrounding area.


Originally posted by DangerDeath
I think this horizontal organization was the main reason they were prosecuted, simply because they didn't recognize authority as of "this" world.
That changed with the work of Roman agent Saul (St. Paul) who organized them into a church, thus "organizing" them vertically, and later they "advanced" and "entered" history.

Well, that is partially correct.

Paul/Saul of Tarsus didn't actually institutionalize the early Christian church. What really happened is that many years after his death at the hands of the Romans - after being turned in by Jews in Jerusalem - early church leaders began using his epistles as an official part of their adopted scripture. It is really they, not Paul, who institutionalized the Christian church.


Originally posted by DangerDeath
Organizing Christians simply meant establishing control over them.

To a point that is accurate, which really started to take hold once Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire under Emperor Constantine.


Originally posted by DangerDeath
As of Baha'i, I only met one of them, long time ago. He was kind of globe trotter missionary, walking barefooted, and I was in high school then. He impressed me so much (not that I understood why), but "he" comes back to me more and more of lately - I guess I have advanced to his spiritual level and we are now pretty close


And I base my judgment of them just on that experience. But it is quite accurate?

My friend, there is nothing wrong with becoming a member of the Baha'i if you find comfort and support from doing so.


The Baha'i faith actually came about more recently than either Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, as it first started to emerge as late as the 1840's.

Coincidentally, at about the same timeframe certain Christian fundamentalist sects were emerging in the United States; namely, the Seventh-day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Paul_Richard]





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