When does a group belief become a cult and why?

When a cults beliefs go wrong or when a cult can actualy have a detrimental effect on a Global scale would be Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party.
Could not Hitler be labled as a cult leader mesmerising his followers.
He was an avid follower of occult practises .
He was very charasmatic.
Was he mad probably .
What do you think.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I think there's more to it than just becoming organized. I think it's when the group decides that they need more members and try to recruit AND when the cult becomes the most important priority in their lives. When their family and friends take a back seat to their commitment to their fellow cult members and whatever mission they are focused on.

Originally posted by 5thElement
I usually highly appreciate your posts, but I'll have to disagree with you on this one...

Christianity=organized belief.

They ALWAYS need more numbers. News flash : recruiting in progress for last 2000 years

Many Christians DO indeed put their belief ABOVE their family, country and all other earthly issues, because, after all, this life is nothing more then illusion

When Christianity first reached Rome in its formative years it was considered a cult by most of the Roman citizenry

Technically, any group that adheres to beliefs different than the more popular and established "churches" are often labeled a cult. However, with some objective investigation one realizes that there are benign or benevolent cults and malevolent or destructive cults.

Examples of benign or benevolent cults would be: the Bahá'í, the Hare Krishnas (ISKCON), Scientology, and Eckankar.

Examples of malevolent or destructive cults would be: the cult of Charles Manson, the cult of Jim Jones, and NAMBLA.

Benign or benevolent cults weave a colorful tapestry of alternate paths that many have pursued from their dissatisfaction with traditional organized religions; church corruption and pedophilia has contributed to the decline of organized religion in general.

To be fair, certain facets of the Christian clergy as well as within the clergy of other faiths (e.g., the pedophile Hindu swami, Sai Baba) can also be considered to be malevolent cults because of their sexual abuse and in some case rape of innocent children.

Sai Baba is considered by many former devotees to be a sexual predator of young men and boys at his ashram in India.

Related link:

Catholic sex abuse cases



[edit on 3-3-2009 by Paul_Richard]

When a cults beliefs go wrong or when a cult can actually have a detrimental effect on a Global scale would be Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party.

What do you mean :go wrong?
All cults are wrong. There is no exception.

when does a cult end ?

after someone brings the Koolaid !

Originally posted by DangerDeath


What do you mean :go wrong?
All cults are wrong. There is no exception.

Maybe they are innocent at the start, when its just a group, but as the beliefs get more and more strange then maybe this is the point it goes "wrong" ?? Maybe the moment it becomes a cult is the moment it all goes wrong??

EDIT Depends who it goes wrong for? The followers or the guru?

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Mr Green]

I think this thread is going to get interesting.
I apologise for logging on and off I am rather busy tonight unfortunately.

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Baha'i are not cult.

Bahá'u'lláh said, “The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens,” and that, as foretold in all the sacred scriptures of the past, now is the time for humanity to live in unity.

This is not ideology.

Bahá’u’lláh has stated that each Bahá’í has the duty to share the Faith with others but forbids the practice of proselytism. Thus, no pressure must be put on anyone to accept it, since independent investigation of truth is a fundamental right and responsibility of each individual.

A person becomes a Bahá’í by recognizing Bahá’u’lláh as the Messenger of God for this age and accepting to follow His laws and teachings and the administrative institutions He established for the unification of humankind. People enroll in a Bahá’í community by signifying such belief and commitment, orally or in writing, to the responsible Bahá'í institution.

www.bahai.org...

You see: No pressure must be put on anyone...

This is not cult. This is about sharing. In sharing there is no diminishing. Sharing can never be manipulation.

Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by DangerDeath


What do you mean :go wrong?
All cults are wrong. There is no exception.

Maybe they are innocent at the start, when its just a group, but as the beliefs get more and more strange then maybe this is the point it goes "wrong" ?? Maybe the moment it becomes a cult is the moment it all goes wrong??

EDIT Depends who it goes wrong for? The followers or the guru?

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Mr Green]

It goes wrong exactly at the moment when it is imposed by force.

People can be easily manipulated and "bought" by nice words and pretty fantasies, but then, as the socializing gains momentum dependencies and ties get developed and it turns into an ugly game of: go with us or lose everything.




[edit on 3-3-2009 by DangerDeath]

Originally posted by DangerDeath

When a cults beliefs go wrong or when a cult can actually have a detrimental effect on a Global scale would be Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party.

What do you mean :go wrong?
All cults are wrong. There is no exception.

I am sorry but I believe that is a statement made without full knowlege of that in which you speak.

However I suppose it depends on how you define cult. If Jesus as the Bible states really existed he was a cult leader and a guru.

Again it depends how we define it. I have attempted to cut and paste the definition but as I am at work and my cult arse boss keeps coming in....anyway.

Typo

[edit on 3-3-2009 by cindymars]

reply to post by cindymars


Well, you are right. It depends on how we define cult.
But when it goes wrong, I've said what I think of it.

Indo-European root is ku̯el-, ku̯elə- to turn; wheel; neck?
www.utexas.edu...

The original meaning of "culture" is "cultivating", related to preparing earth for growing crops.

Latin cultus, worship, from past participle of colere, to cultivate; see kwel-1 in Indo-European roots
www.thefreedictionary.com...

The basic meaning would be cultivating something: relationship, belief, craft, philosophy, art, style

But this is covered by word "culture".
Cult as a source of specific culture???

Coercion, force and the power of bonding gets the snowball rolling. It soon develops into a mass lifeforce of it's own, swamping individual rational processes via attraction, which quickly clamps the unwary with the bonding force.

You speak as though it is just the ignorant or the innocent that this works successfully on...it is not: many times you will see this work on otherwise intelligent people through the 'mass group' or mob-effect, which few conceive the roots of: it is the sticky nature of energy, which aligns the mind through it's forces.

Spirit is sticky: it is like a blob, once touched, it sticks, connects, and grows: the aura is your vehicle of access, and as it is basically unrecognised by most, it can use it's dominant body-of-enegry to easily submerge the more subtle energy of mind.

This is the metaphysics of it....not generally accepted, certainly the unknown factor, or origin of potential (cultist growth and direction). So, is there defense against this? Hardly at this stage of mankind's development:

Spirit has Two affective Pole aspects, one Feminine, the other Masculine: At this moment, perceive the image of the yin-yang in your mind:

The black half represents the Feminine aspect of spirit, the embodied or womb polarity: it is magnetic, and it's darker effect is known as uzian: ooze. It is like an infinite tar: once touched, it can never before broken from (while within it's field of influence: energy). Starting to get the picture? It is where humanity arose from!

The white half represents the Masculine aspect of spirit, the subtle or mind polarity: it is electric, and its darker effect is known as sticky: adhesion. It is like an infinite glue: once touched, it can never be broken from (while within it's field of influence: life). Now getting the picture? It is the self-aware aspect of humanity, the inherent intelligence within nature.

So, here you have your Origin of Influence: it over-rides, overcomes all processes to elude it:

'I want to appeal to your analytical mind,' don Juan said. 'Think for a moment, and tell me how you would explain the contradiction between the intelligence of man the engineer and the stupidity of his systems of beliefs, or the stupidity of his contradictory behavior.'
("Active Side of Infinity," Carlos Castaneda)

That is an example of something, nor matter the origin, that any intelligent observationalist can perceive as a functioning aspect of humanity, and humans within social settings.

To elude these unfavorable effects, one must learn the carefully concealed methods that are everywhere revealed, but which themselves are always traps: unless learned entirely by the individual (very slow/hard), there is always a 'price' set upon this knowledge, which is then used by the highest members as their energy, which originally belonged to the innocent inquirerer. This hidden knowledge is known today by the term: Integration: the two united overcomes either force alone, and then you have a unified field of energy, stronger than the black or the white half of the (representational) yin-yang, or what is also known as Awareness of One Self.

Religions are cults, of course. Just because they are big does not mean they are excused from their negative effects: they control large masses of humanity, and will not, cannot, release them without dying.

Example: how I was indoctrinated into christianity:

My grandmother made all her five children sign contractual agreements with the church to raise their children as christian: this included saying the rosary every nite together for 10 yrs.. It included going to christian schools; it included giving to christian charities; it included paying tithes, which were published once a year and passed to all church members (great for gossip and encouragement to pay more); church was mandatory, and punishable for failure to attend: our family was required to attend church 6-7 times per week. Oh, and don't forget bible class, dear heavens.

Now, escape is possible: but it is begun in the nature of friendship and group camaraderie, and like-to-like has both moments of consciousness, and unconsciousness, when the darker forces of uz (black) and sticky (white) are able to seep upon all. Btw, these can also be called evil and good, but both principles have a touch of evil: don't forget the reverse colored dots in the black-white yin-yang, which readily reveal this to you, and all.

Integration is the Phoenix bird that dies and is reborn to Itself, the Many in One, or Awareness of One Self:

The Ultimate Cult, Immortality in the EverAll.

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by SS,Naga


I gave you a star for this.
But, please get over symbolism, will you?

reply to post by DangerDeath

I wish I could get over symbolism. Did you want math, also symbolism? Jung explained the archetypes of humanity, which were international in nature, and part of humanities' unconscious recognition patterns: symbolism. What makes sense to one, may not to another (foreign members of society).

Speaking of abstract concepts, metaphorical symbolism is sometimes the best way to ring the bell (resonate idea intent). Had I been just addressing one group (savvy new agers or christians, etc.), I could have used more precisely recognizable terms. However (raises arms in gesture of 'whatever'), I apologise for the generality of the symbolism. English is symbols, btw!

PS - I certainly enjoy your posts around ats, also, and have returned the stars more than once!

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

The word "cult" seemed to mean something entirely different than the presently accepted definition. ... Remember when rock bands, certain sports cars, motorcycling, bicycling and anything of interest to a small minority was said to have a "cult following"..... I think that it was in the eighties that there became confusion between the words"cult " and "occult" in minds of the "religious right"... During this period there were Psychiatrist writing books on Satanism, Witchcraft, ritualistic child abuse and occult practitioners such as Free Masons and even religions that deviated from mainstream practices.... I worked in the mental health field at the time and there were a lot of people that were on psychiatric units that were being convinced that they were victims of "ritualistic abuse" by accredited mental health professionals.... A lot of life's were ruined by those people.

Originally posted by SS,Naga

Spirit is sticky: it is like a blob, once touched, it sticks, connects, and grows: the aura is your vehicle of access, and as it is basically unrecognised by most, it can use it's dominant body-of-enegry to easily submerge the more subtle energy of mind.

This is the metaphysics of it....not generally accepted, certainly the unknown factor, or origin of potential (cultist growth and direction). So, is there defense against this? Hardly at this stage of mankind's development:

The Ultimate Cult, Immortality in the EverAll.

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

Id never looked upon spirit as sticky, but your right once touched, it connects and grows. Then to the energy of the mind it will submerge. Id never even thought about the metaphysics of a cult, but you seem to have made a connection which is interesting.

The Ultimate Cult is immortality in the AfterAll. Again unless Id seen it written I would never have made the connection but what you have wrote does seem to be the Ultimate Cult.

When they try to change you and your current beliefs, then give you a new set of beliefs based on future predictions. Then give you points on your progress, kind of like “Roll Playing Game” Also I find some of the cult like groups I have come across in my time seem to give you a set title or name “Alter Ego” some may ask you to wear the name like a badge, using the name for Emails, Profiles and so forth.

Just my opinion

S&F because I feel it’s important people are aware of “Cults” now all the “New Age” hype has hit full throttle so has all the manipulation.



[edit on 3-3-2009 by IamNow]

Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

I wish I could get over symbolism. Did you want math, also symbolism? Jung explained the archetypes of humanity, which were international in nature, and part of humanities' unconscious recognition patterns: symbolism. What makes sense to one, may not to another (foreign members of society).

Hi would it be really off topic for me to ask you to explain in simple terms what the archetypes of humanity are? Sorry if its something everyone else knows about but Ive seen them posted of before and all I seemed to get was shapes? Are they shapes? I re read your post and I cant see any reference to them directly.

Thanks

Originally posted by IamNow
Also I find some of the cult like groops I have come across in my time seem to give you a set title or name “Alter Ego” some may ask you to ware the name like a badge, using the name for Emails, Profiles and so forth.

Just my opinion

S&F because I feel it’s important people are aware of “Cults” now all the “New Age” hype has hit full throttle so has all the manipulation.

I guess that would be the removal of self and given new identity..like say a new name. This was number 5 on the list in the video posted by 5th element. You loose your identity so it becomes harder to actually think like you did under your correct old identity. It then becomes harder and harder to live a double life so in the end you must choose who you are...you or your replaced cult name. The two CAN not live in harmony because we are not two we can only be the one. To live a dual life is the road to depression and loss of self.

Love your avatar btw, Im a fan! ( see my signature and you should know why with an avatar like that )

Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

I wish I could get over symbolism. Did you want math, also symbolism? Jung explained the archetypes of humanity, which were international in nature, and part of humanities' unconscious recognition patterns: symbolism. What makes sense to one, may not to another (foreign members of society).

Speaking of abstract concepts, metaphorical symbolism is sometimes the best way to ring the bell (resonate idea intent). Had I been just addressing one group (savvy new agers or christians, etc.), I could have used more precisely recognizable terms. However (raises arms in gesture of 'whatever'), I apologise for the generality of the symbolism. English is symbols, btw!

PS - I certainly enjoy your posts around ats, also, and have returned the stars more than once!

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by SS,Naga


Well, the problem with symbols is that they are ambivalent. In order to understand a symbol you must already understand the whole agenda they stand for. So they represent a whole philosophical system rather than one concept.

Castaneda introduced this ambivalence in his book "Tales of Power", symbolically represented as Tonal and Nagual, roughly "physical" and "metaphysical", where physical is the domain of perception, and metaphysical is the domain of force (abstract, incomprehensible, active, unknowable). Castaneda then elaborates on this at length, which practically overwrites symbolism and gets reader deep into the "matter" within some kind of philosophical interpretation (warrior's interpretation).


Jung used word "unconscious", in my opinion, instead of: abstract (practically same as Castaneda's nagual).

To get back on the cult topic: symbols are certainly used in probably all cults. And for the people outside of the cult they are a big "secret", yet visible from all angles.

By Spinoza's definition: the idea which is the least clear - affects the most!

Take for instance Nazi usage of the symbol of swastika. Originally, swastika represents the emanating active (creative) force. But Nazi agenda was exactly the opposite - the destructive force.
Combined with its decorum, red-white-black (strong visual impression), it had terrible effect on people.

In Christianity, cross is the main (visual) symbol. Of course, Christ is the main symbol too, and we have combination of these two: crucified Christ...
It also affects people in a very dramatic manner.

So, cults use these means (cloudiness of symbols) to affect and impress their followers and at the same time don't explain too much of the true nature of the organization.

OK, I'll stop here. This is a very big theme to exhaust it in this form.

reply to post by Mr Green

I guess that would be the removal of self and given new identity..like say a new name. This was number 5 on the list in the video posted by 5th element. You loose your identity so it becomes harder to actually think like you did under your correct old identity.

Hey, Ive heard actors speak like this many times.
They say, once they get into the costume, they are completely different person!