Crisis? What Crisis?

Its a real downtown,Crisis is not my word. I'm going on a limb here because of the nature of this site , i have no way of knowing. I'm going to say people in general on this site are a bit more in tune than the average Joe, bit more educated, few more advantages. If you aren't seeing this downturn, your prob not looking in the right places,why would you, your paths in life don't bring you to the front lines. On a side note : it must be frustrating being a mod, if I wrote this , I would be flamed, as the Writer of the post is expecting, but will never get. Folks see authority figures , even on THIS site, and fall all over themselves to comply and agree, long live the sheeple. edit: my point with the mod is , he wants a discussion and to be flamed to promote discussion, all hes getting is a love in

[edit on 3-3-2009 by branty]

reply to post by branty


Trust me when I say, there are plenty of people who have issues with "authority/mods" here, and aren't afraid to say so.

On to the topic.

Downturn is as good a way to phrase it as any. No one is denying there aren't issues to be dealt with. My own financial situation is lower(much lower) middle class. I don't have any extra money, or at least not a great deal of it, yet somehow or other, with a little help from the one family member still in the area, we've strived to do for ourselves. We're depending upon no one but ourselves, so we've no one to blame but ourselves...

What sky is advocating, though I hesitate to attempt to read minds generally, is a return to basic self reliance, and looking at things and deciding for ourselves what's bad, or not bad. It's looking at what is happening, not what some talking head says is happening.

Many of the posters are agreeing with sky. So? In what way does that make them "sheeple"?

Originally posted by branty
edit: my point with the mod is , he wants a discussion and to be flamed to promote discussion, all hes getting is a love in

______________________________

Concerning the points you brought up: You say its the conspiracy-site/alternative-press people seeing the downturn. I have to disagree. I think it was fed by the exaggeration in mass-media

Originally posted by seagull

I think people are coming to the conclusion (which should have been selfevident long ago) that relying upon others for your well being is a dangerous way to go. The recent unease over 401K's can be used as evidence of that.

I shudder to think what would become of me if I were to actually believe that the government is willing and able to take care of me.

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating


Amen to that. Gov't is good at taking care of itself, not the people.

I'm never going to be rich. Whilst I would enjoy being so, my tastes are fairly simple. Roof over the head, beer in the fridge, along with some food (notice the priority), good music and good books, and my computer. Happiness is relative, I suppose...

reply to post by seagull
The point I was making , er couple points. You see what you want to see , People have become quite nimble stepping over less fortunates lying on the streets, If you aren't near the front lines , single mothers, low paying jobs, immagrants looking for a better way, you prob at this time don't see any effects, (I dont know where you live , or your social status). Another point was , the author of this post being a mod didnt get the response he was looking for , I'm assuming it was a discussion, but judging by his well thought out reply to my post (below yours) , maybe he was just looking for a few "strokes" EDIT housing sales down 59% in my city are not numbers jumbled by the mass media



[edit on 3-3-2009 by branty]

OP - By pure 'coincedence' I was thinking exactly the same thing today and I was going to put a thread up explaining exactly what you have said.

I believe a mass awakening is happening on this planet so much so as I write this I have goosebumps running over my back. This is really happening, ever since 911, everywhere I turn people are asking questions.

The more the governments advertise this 'crisis' the easier it will be for people to see.

All I can say its about bloody time.

This viewpoint seems to be becoming more popular...

See this link on Indymedia for a news story in the same vein!

www.indymedia.org.uk...

Originally posted by branty
reply to post by seagull

 

The point I was making , er couple points. You see what you want to see , People have become quite nimble stepping over less fortunates lying on the streets, If you aren't near the front lines , single mothers, low paying jobs, immagrants looking for a better way, you prob at this time don't see any effects, (I dont know where you live , or your social status). Another point was , the author of this post being a mod didnt get the response he was looking for , I'm assuming it was a discussion, but judging by his well thought out reply to my post (below yours) , maybe he was just looking for a few "strokes" EDIT housing sales down 59% in my city are not numbers jumbled by the mass media



[edit on 3-3-2009 by branty]

reply to post by branty


On the contrary, and with respect, those are the very people from where I personally draw my observations and experience, friend. I work with the 'underclass' (that is, those BENEATH the lower class and primarily a social services term).And have for over 25 years now.

The sad fact is that they have been there all along. If people are 'nimble to avoid stepping on them now', its very possible they just werent looking before.

But now that the media/internet are fostering a gloom/doom feel over this entire 'situation', many more people are finally beginning to see whats been here all along. West Birmingham in 1982 or now is still the same place economically--the only true difference is there was no 'semi-viral' internet campaign to alert everyone to the suffering of their fellow citizens back then.


Anyway, my conclusion is that when things are(and Im doubtful they ever really will be) as bad as some on here insist, then all of our PC's and laptops will be sitting in pawn shops and the money once used to pay for a monthly internet provider will be spent instead on canned spam and pork and beans.


We are very likely no closer to a global meltdown now than weve been in the last 3 or 4 decades despite what we are being spoon-fed . Same bungling and narrow minded short-sighted political hi-jinks as always...regardless of who is in office.

Just my opinion.

The thing that you have to remember OP is that not everyone is going to view the current turmoil like you do.

I live in the inner city. The apartment building next to mine has heroin dealers with 3 generations and multiple children living in one of the apartments.

Two blocks down the street is the "affordable housing" complex. I'd love to see the reaction you'd get from all of those folks in that complex that can't even wear pants that don't fall down around their knees when you explain to them that it's liberating to lose their dependence on all the crap that makes an inner city youth a "man" such as 'rims' for their cars and gold grills for their teeth.
Tell those kids to grow a garden and you're likely to get stabbed.

I'd cringe to see what my dope addicted neighbors are going to do when their parents (whom they live with) loose their menial cleaning jobs and can't buy their grand kids diapers.

And I'm not trying to be racist here, there are just as many affluent hipster kids in the area that would probably just self destruct if their G1 service went down or they couldn't afford their fixed-gear bikes and throw-back nikes. In addition to a young, liberal contingent that will use any excuse to "protest" just about anything as long as they get to wear scarves covering their faces and knock over newspaper dispensers.

I DO see layoffs happening. From Computer engineers to coffee shop workers. From the place where I get my oil changed to small retail clothing stores going under.

I have the luxury of not yet being affected, at least fiscally, by the depression. I also happen to be intelligent, well traveled, articulate, considerate, well educated, healthy and strong. And I own a lot of guns.

Do I hope the whole corrupt, slothful house of cards that is our financial epicenter collapses? Sure... but I'm not ignorant as to the violence that will ensue either. Afterall, there are alot of cities.

This thread is apparently encourageing folks to get tough, be more optimistic. But in fact the crisis is really severe and the ripple effect of the credit crunch is far-reaching. (e.g. A.I.G. is going down which mean many banks will blow up ), how can we pretend we will be fine?

What concerns me is why they have created a crisis. If I learned anything from the last administration it's that in order for the government to receive support for an idea or strategy they first create a crisis.

WW 2 got us out of the depression. What are they preparing us for? My guess is a global economic restructuring. It's a good way to sell the world economic conglomeration idea without the usual obvious smell of "NWO". It would also draw a line in the sand.

Is it just me or is Skyfloating the biggest candidate for Disinfo agent on this entire site? Everything I've seen this person post thus far is in support of the NWO/elites. I saw them post about how there is a conspiracy AGAINST jews (:lol and now that the 'crisis' doesn't exist?

Someone needs to trace this person's IP and make sure it's not coming from the Pentagon.

reply to post by rufusdrak

Not so sure about that one. Skyfloating has started some of the most interesting threads here at ATS and is a true asset to this website.

On topic, I haven't personally felt this crisis as of yet but I think we're all going to have to pay the piper eventually. I'm no scholar of the 1st Great depression but it seems to me that were in a bit of a different situation now.
In the 1920's we as a society generally lived closer to our roots and our families. Some, if not a good percentage lived in Extended family units versus the Nuclear family that most live in today. This added another layer of insulation to families. If one member of the family lost a job you had two or three others that would fill in the gap and make up for some lost wages. Conversely, if you had a family business you all would bite the bullet and pull up your stakes head for greener pastures.
Today the Nuclear family unit has one hopefully two primary wage earners that contribute while the rest of your family may be scattered and on their own. Not as efficient for survival as a family imo.

This is a great thread, Skyfloating, and, IMHO, your point is quite well taken.

Certainly the way we respond to events is a major factor in determining the outcomes of said events. This ability to choose our responses is what makes people an absolutely unique species of kingdom Animalia -- we are capable of actually creating the future !

Of course we do so anyway, whether we realize we are or not, and this is a great difficulty for humanity at the present juncture.

This is what has been forcefully conditioned into the hive-mind by the mass-media and surprisingly many at this non-msm-site have bought into it too and are raving and ranting about the dire times we supposedly live in.

Source : OP

This is just the way people are and have been since the beginning. It's the way human culture works - we all resonate with one another. If enough positive energy is brought into the situation then the following vision is certainly attainable -

But are we really in a crisis or are we ... in a mass-awakening showing us that we have been in debt all along as a country, a world and on individual levels? Isnt it a great thing to finally confront the truth about our situation? Claiming that this is something new or unforseen is a lie, imo.

Source : OP

Based on humanity's track record and indeed the overwhelming preponderance of negativity currently in play, achieving the critical mass necessary to flip the scales to a positive outcome, i.e. mass awakening, is for us remote at best ...

Is our current situation a cause to keep our heads low and cower in fear or is it an opportunity to keep our heads high, see through the illusion of gaining any kind of "security" from others and become more free?

Source : OP

I'm not sure if you're familiar with any of the things L. Ron Hubbard thought, but it turns out that besides starting his own religion he was a pretty good science fiction writer. Here's something he said about security -

There is only one security, and when you've lost that security, you've lost everything you've got. And that is the security of confidence in yourself; to be, to create, to make any position you want to make for yourself. And when you lose that confidence, you've lost the only security you can have. ... Self-confidence is self-determinism. One's belief in one's ability to determine his own course. As long as one has that, he's got the universe in his pocket. And when he hasn't got that, not all the pearls in China nor all the grain and corn in Iowa can give him security, because that's the only security there is.

Source : ThinkExist - L. Ron Hubbard Quotes

Anyway, about the severity of the current economic upheaval, we have the following -

UPDATE 2-Recession will be worst since 1930s -Greenspan

NEW YORK, Feb 17 (Reuters) - Former U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said on Tuesday the current global recession will "surely be the longest and deepest" since the 1930s and more government rescue funds are needed to stabilize the U.S. financial system.

Source : Reuters

As nearly as I can tell the 1930's in America was not about recession but about depression ... why the article refers to that period as a recession may be anybody's guess ...

And the following from Roubini -

The Rising Risks of a Global L-Shaped Near Depression and Stag-Deflation
Mar 2, 2009

I just arrived to Hong Kong and I will next visit India later this week. When the first thing you hear - from your driver upon arrival to the airport in Hong Kong - is that business and occupancy in hotels is down more than 30% you already know this is a very ugly recession in the entire Asian region as Hong Kong is an economic barometer for trade and economic activity all over Asia.

For those who argue that the second derivative of economic activity is turning positive (i.e. economies are contracting but a slower rate than in Q4 of 2008) the latest data don’t confirm this relative optimism. In Q4 of 2008 GDP fell by about 6% in the US, 6% in the Eurozone, by 8% in Germany, by 12% in Japan, by 16% in Singapore and by 20% in South Korea. So things are even more awful in Europe and Asia than the US.

So let us discuss next why there is a rising risk of a global L-shaped depression that would be even worse than the current ugly and painful U-shaped global recession:

Source : RGE Monitor

Thanks again for this thread, a ray of sunshine in an otherwise darkening world ...

Wisdom abounds from Skyfloating.
Nice perspective that I feel I can also relate to.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fab19bcbbf7b.jpg[/atsimg]

In a way I feel like this is the ultimate point of this whole mess. But the country itself does have serious problems that have to be addressed, and that won't come easy. If we default on our debt the country may be done for. War and famine are real possibilities on the horizon. Most people don't know anything else except consumerism and wage-slavery. They who are stuck in this mindset are the ones that will have to adapt to a new world of solid money and resource management. We might just have to stop consuming 5 times as much as other people on this planet. Especially now that we barely produce anything tangible anymore.

It could eventually lead to something better but not without a lot of pain and suffering. That is a crisis. In the short term anyway. It may take a generation for positive long term change. That's about the timeline I'm thinking of. Until then it's gonna suck.

OP I think your statement is a slap to the face of all those who have lost their jobs, homes, retirement who are struggling to survive. It is not because that you have the chance to have a job that has not been outsourced to China or a PhD graduate doing housework or flipping burgers that everything is happy and sunny.
Sure there are jobs out there but not for everyone.

[edit on 3-3-2009 by TheOracle]

What bothers me, is that you lump the "working class" into a group of, for lack of a better word, idiots. You're basically saying, hey it's great you're losing your jobs, now you can go into business for yourself! Not all of us really care to do that. I'm happy to enjoy my 9 to 5 job, it allows me to zone out for 8 hours a day. I like to think that i'm a fairly smart guy, and could make it on my own if I wanted to. But I don't think you could pay me enough to deal with the headache and hassle of running my own business. Not to mention my particular skill set pretty much keeps me with large corporations. I wouldn't have it any other way. Would I love to get paid more? You betcha! But i'm not gonna lose any sleep over it either.

As far as national crisis is concerned. I honestly believe a lot of people have been living well beyond their means for a long time. This needs to correct itself first and foremost. Predatory lending practices are pretty bad, however, if you're not intelligent enough to read the fine print and recognize it might be to good to be true, then you deserve to get bitten in the butt.

Hasn't there always been job loses and people losing homes the last thirty forty years? I too think were being scared into believing we're in some kind of crisis. And its causing everybody, companies, consumers to tighten up securing and saving money by cutting jobs and spending less puttin busineses under. This snowballed I think when the fear mongering was given a go. But in the grand scheme of it all its affected the whole economy very little. They make it seem as if our unemployment rates has gone haywire, for our standards that is, to like 30 40 percent.

I too don't know anybody thats lost they're job or got thrown out into the streets. Also all the layoffs we've been hearing about how much of it was temporary assignments? Construction jobs have always been exclusively temporary and some of the manufacturing.

And how do we know the numbers theyre throwing at us isnt inflated or exagerated to some degree? Maybe the people that are suppose to make sure the numbers are correct or accurate are all in on it. It would probably take a half of a lifetime to look into those numbers amongst the millions and millions of factors to determine wether those numbers are accurate without using govt resources so no ones gonna ever really know.

Somehow the housing slump doesnt add up to me destroying the economy. The average motgage payment is what 1500/2000 maybe? Thats only one of the many, I mean many factors of the whole overall economy. That would probably be akin to blaming the slow sales of orange soda at mickey D's putting mickeyD's under.

my 2 cents