Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Byrd

Stripping him down to basics still doesn't give the same thing as Kokopelli other than they were male and played a wind instrument. But if you use that as a generalization, then you can include Count Basie and Satchmo and the Archangel Michael.

There is much more of a comparison than simply wind instrument and they were male. I cant believe you looked at anything if that all you can come up with.

You don't believe that I read a lot of Hopi myths and am familiar with the major writings about their legendary history? You don't believe that I read everything I could get my hands on about the Romans and Greeks, including all the remaining plays of Aeschylus, Euripides, and Aristophanes (and that Aristophanes' play, "The Birds" is one of my favorites?)

I did read all that, and more.

As for the hunchback thing Pan was known to allow nymphs to ride on his back.

Source?

You know this comparison was of enough interest that even none other than Jung looked into it. I have yet to read his findings.

Frazier, frankly, is better on cultural archetypes since he was researching anthropological concepts. Jung's archetypes are archetypes of the unconscious mind, written before a time when we began to understand how culture can bias our own concepts and constructions of archetypes in our mind.

From a cultural standpoint, Jung's material is easily knocked apart by looking at original source material for the cultures. From a psychological standpoint, how archetypes work in individual minds is a fascinating study and one that's worthwhile pursuing. And cultural (single culture) archetypes are the study of a field in anthropology called "semiotics." It's an endlessly fascinating field.

But it takes more than "they were just guys and played musical instruments" to make a mythic connection -- or even a semiotic/archetypal one even when the timeframe is the same.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Byrd

Stripping him down to basics still doesn't give the same thing as Kokopelli other than they were male and played a wind instrument. But if you use that as a generalization, then you can include Count Basie and Satchmo and the Archangel Michael.

There is much more of a comparison than simply wind instrument and they were male. I cant believe you looked at anything if that all you can come up with.

You don't believe that I read a lot of Hopi myths and am familiar with the major writings about their legendary history? You don't believe that I read everything I could get my hands on about the Romans and Greeks, including all the remaining plays of Aeschylus, Euripides, and Aristophanes (and that Aristophanes' play, "The Birds" is one of my favorites?)

I did read all that, and more.

As for the hunchback thing Pan was known to allow nymphs to ride on his back.

Source?

Dude if you knew as much as you say you do I wouldn't need to give you are source. Thats Pan 101.

Really though like I said a while back Min is where the connection is. And I know you haven't spent any time looking at it so please dont act like you know.

As far as Jung the important thing is that he noticed the connections. You cant really knock him apart for that even if you dont happen to follow his conclusions or methodology. But since I brought him up you need to knock him down.

Anyway I bore of you. Not your disagreement but you disingenuous debate.
At this point if you would like to continue we need to lay out something more in depth in the comparative study rather than this retarded crossfire that while points have been made we have still gotten nowhere in a surface examination.

Originally posted by Byrd


Another reason I doubt the "Celtic monk" theory is that there was no increased resistance to European diseases in the Northeastern Native Americans. If such a group had showed up and interacted, they would have brought European diseases... and Native American populations there would have been less vulnerable to them.

[edit on 10-3-2009 by Byrd]

This may or may not mean anything. Even if there were a larger group of people coming from anywhere in Europe they couldn't possibly have been large enough to effect a massive genetic immunity to diseases. The Europeans themselves have never developed resistance to many of their own diseases.

Originally posted by Byrd


Historian Frank Waters became a trusted friend of the Hopi and began writing down their stories over half a century ago. His book, considered a good reference on the subject, says that it was the Kachina who told them to start traveling toward the south and then head somewhat counterclockwise about the land, led by the Water Coyote clan. White people had nothing to do with the journey.

It was Frank Waters that first recorded the story of the "White Brother". The Hopi traveled from the east with a clan of white people. The whites moved south into Mexico. And some day they would return as the story goes.

I think, instead of a common language, maybe one civilization, that really got around and left its mark. Literally.

I'm sure it's already been said but yes, there was such a civilization...we call it "Rome"....and Latin forms the basis of almost all modern languages.

You know, I am very sure that I read about this before on ATS or was led to this story via an ATS thread regarding historical civilisations...I'll try to find it...

...but it wasn't good I'm afraid. The Australian site was a hoax if memory serves me correctly, apparently some student carved the symbols or some of them. I know that some members on here will say something about archaeologists knowing the difference between modern carvings and whatever...I'm only saying what I think I remember. But there is also the fact that this guy is an amateur archaeologist and that the expert only translated the symbols from the Israeli desert using hebrew phonetics blah blah blah

The amateur found his symbols in Colorado then the article goes on to bridge these other sites with similar symbols and almost identical translations of some forthcoming event regarding the sun.....

....why, if the writings have been translated, are all the "messages" not revealed in the article? This would be a major scoop for Rebecca Sato. She is a science and health researcher (and pretty dam fine if you ask me ;-) ) and appears on many apparently credible artcles but I think I will have to read more of her work before giving any opinion on the writer apart from her looks :-)

Oh and I did check out the other links for the translation of the sites and there was nothing that proved or even remotely suggested the writings were delivering the same message...only what Sato wrote.

While i am no expert on this, and no matter how much I would love to believe it, I have to say that it seems to be a poorly researched article and probably not true...but who knows...maybe one day...

*fingers crossed*


[edit on 9/3/2010 by itchy_tartan_blanket]

This is a very fascinating discovery. I, for one, am not about to put much faith in the idea that the tower of Babel is a plausible explanation.

I am inclined to think that mankind could very well have had some kind of simple universal language that would have split into the many different languages over the course of it's evolution as our ancestors spread out into different areas of the world.

Of course I am not saying this is what happened. It simply makes more sense to me.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Harte

You're aware that Ogham script is merely series of straight lines and the various sounds correlate to bunches of these lines?

Couldn't some ogham simply be some Native American enumerating how many turkeys he killed over a 20 day period? (5 turkeys the first day, next "bunch" would be three turkeys the second day...) or whatever?

Imagine a Grizzly takes several swipes at a tree branch. Is the bear writing in ogham script?

Harte

You need to move out of the deep end of the pool my friend.

Pardon me for assuming that you understood the concept of reason.

Harte