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The Christian Origins of the Koran/Qur'an

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posted on Apr, 16 2004 @ 10:42 PM
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A German scholar of ancient languages takes a new look at the sacred book of Islam. He maintains that it was created by Syro-Aramaic speaking Christians, in order to evangelize the Arabs. And he translates it in a new way.


In its origin, the Koran is a Syro-Aramaic liturgical book, with hymns and extracts from Scriptures which might have been used in sacred Christian services.

The Virgins and the Grapes: the Christian Origins of the Koran


I debated creating this thread in BTS for the reasons that this may be a purely Theological argument, but the more I dug on this matter/subject, the more I realized that it would be highly controversial. The research and articles that I have gathered for this subject, since many here have come to know that I provide 'tons' of links to sources, could well label these authors as creating a controversial 'conspiracy.'

As such, I did find that there is and has been heavy skepticism and criticism of the Koran/Qur'an and its historical sources of and on it's origin(s).

The traditional view or account of the Koran/Qur'an is:

The traditional account claims that the Koran was revealed to Muhammad, written down in bits, and not collated before Muhammad's death.

The Origins of the Koran: Classic Essays on Islam's Holy Book




According to the traditional account the Koran was revealed to Muhammad, usually by an angel, gradually over a period of years until his death in 632 C.E. It is not clear how much of the Koran had been written down by the time of Muhammad’s death, but it seems probable that there was no single manuscript in which the Prophet himself had collected all the revelations. Nonetheless, there are traditions which describe how the Prophet dictated this or that portion of the Koran to his secretaries.

The Origins of the Koran



Below is some of the findings allowing for the controversial 'sonspiracy' nature of the Koran/Qu'ran being of Christian origin:

Q. – What do you say, then, about the idea, accepted until now, that the Koran was the first book written in Arabic?

A. – “According to Islamic tradition, the Koran dates back to the 7th century, while the first examples of Arabic literature in the full sense of the phrase are found only two centuries later, at the time of the ‘Biography of the Prophet’; that is, of the life of Mohammed as written by Ibn Hisham, who died in 828. We may thus establish that post-Koranic Arabic literature developed by degrees, in the period following the work of al-Khalil bin Ahmad, who died in 786, the founder of Arabic lexicography (kitab al-ayn), and of Sibawwayh, who died in 796, to whom the grammar of classical Arabic is due. Now, if we assume that the composition of the Koran was brought to an end in the year of the Prophet Mohammed’s death, in 632, we find before us an interval of 150 years, during which there is no trace of Arabic literature worthy of note.”

Q. – So at the time of Mohammed Arabic did not have precise rules, and was not used for written communication. Then how did the Koran come to be written?

A. – “At that time, there were no Arab schools – except, perhaps, for the Christian centers of al-Anbar and al-Hira, in southern Mesopotamia, or what is now Iraq. The Arabs of that region had been Christianized and instructed by Syrian Christians. Their liturgical language was Syro-Aramaic. And this was the vehicle of their culture, and more generally the language of written communication.”

Q. – What is the relationship between this language of culture and the origin of the Koran?

A. – “Beginning in the third century, the Syrian Christians did not limit themselves to bringing their evangelical mission to nearby countries, like Armenia or Persia. They pressed on toward distant territories, all the way to the borders of China and the western coast of India, in addition to the entire Arabian peninsula all the way to Yemen and Ethiopia. It is thus rather probable that, in order to proclaim the Christian message to the Arabic peoples, they would have used (among others) the language of the Bedouins, or Arabic. In order to spread the Gospel, they necessarily made use of a mishmash of languages. But in an era in which Arabic was just an assembly of dialects and had no written form, the missionaries had no choice but to resort to their own literary language and their own culture; that is, to Syro-Aramaic. The result was that the language of the Koran was born as a written Arabic language, but one of Arab-Aramaic derivation.”

The Virgins and the Grapes: the Christian Origins of the Koran



Further links of interest from the above site and article:
“Newsweek” Article About Christoph Luxenberg On Koran Banned In Pakistan

ARGUING THAT TODAY’S version of the Qur’an has been mistranscribed from the original text, scholar Christoph Luxenberg says that what are described as “houris” with “swelling breasts” refer to nothing more than “white raisins” and “juicy fruits.”

Luxenberg—a pseudonym—is one of a small but growing group of scholars, most of them working in non-Muslim countries, studying the language and history of the Qur’an.




Scholars Scrutinize the Koran's Origin

Since there are no Arabic chronicles from the first century of Islam, the two looked at several non-Muslim, seventh-century accounts that suggested Muhammad was perceived not as the founder of a new religion but as a preacher in the Old Testament tradition, hailing the coming of a Messiah. Many of the early documents refer to the followers of Muhammad as "hagarenes," and the "tribe of Ishmael," in other words as descendants of Hagar, the servant girl that the Jewish patriarch Abraham used to father his son Ishmael.




What Is The Koran?

Researchers with a variety of academic and theological interests are proposing controversial theories about the Koran and Islamic history, and are striving to reinterpret Islam for the modern world. This is, as one scholar puts it, a "sensitive business"



Another good site on this:
QU'RAN (KORAN)


Thoughts or comments as to the possibility or validity of the Koran/Qur'an in fact, being derived of Christianity?



seekerof




posted on Apr, 17 2004 @ 02:02 AM
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hmmm most interesting thread. I didnt read all the links now, but what I am wondering is if Qur'an derived from christianity, it certainly didnt use the "constantine" bible we have now, because Islam and Christianity differ greatly in certain things regarding Jesus.
In muslim tradition, God sent the Bible, the original one, to Jesus, but it got lost and changed through centuries. Thats why another Testament was sent, the Qur'an. If the syro-aramaic christianity was based on this original Bible that it is understandable that there are similarities. But that only means all religions have the same God as source, not that Qur'an is not from God directly.

A well known tradition in Islam is memorising Qur'an, and that started with Muhamad and his followers. First, the angel Gabriel who spoke to mohamad insisted that he memorises every word correctly before telling it to people. Then mohammad insisted from his folowers to do the same, so that the message is not lost.



posted on Apr, 17 2004 @ 03:32 AM
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All I can say is wow, very interesting, I am a christion, and thi explains a lot to me.



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 06:47 PM
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i wouldnt have guessed christian, more of jewish origin, for Ishmael and Israel are known in the Jewish Book as well. Ishmael is the other son of Abraham, while Israel went on to father 12 sons, making up the 12 Jewish tribes of Isreal. all Jewish history as well as Christian, so im curious to know why u are connecting Islam to Christians, instead of Jews.



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 06:57 PM
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actually seekeroff, I got lost in this one. I can see the connection to Judaisim definitely..but calling it Christians origins just doesn't seem to fit right historically speaking.
didn't the religion of Christianity come about around the same time or after Islam?

btw, i am glad you brought this up though, even if it is just theological it still shows that the 3 religions doing most of the fighting are fighting about the same thing.



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:03 PM
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You can find many comparrisons and similarities between the Old Testaments and the Koran, almost indicating a common source of information (yeah, I know, God).

The Dead Sea Scrolls have been used by both religions... these scrolls were written by the Essenes, a group of people dedicated to the study and research of different religions, believing all were merely the different faces and aspects of God; they're two major sources of information came from the Chaldeans and the Hindus.

The Hindus we know of... the Chaldeans, however, maybe not. The Chaldeans were a race of nomads who eventually settled and created the first city... Ur. Yes, that's right, the Sumerians.

Anyway... check out the Essenes to learn about the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls.



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:04 PM
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Seekerof~~
very interesting. Although I haven't read all your very helpful links, I have come to believe that the possiblilty of religions created to fit is possible.
Don't beat my up here, but Icke and Desborough bring up the issue that many of our religions hava a lot of common threads, one of which is the trinity. It is thought that, as civilizations developed in various areas, the religions were tailored to the various needs of the populace. Thus, Chrisitanity, Islam and Judaism may all have similar roots.



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:05 PM
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WorldWatcher, what are you talking about ?

Islam was Instintutionalized ( I think I spelled that wrong ) in 600 ad by Prophet Mohhamed. The first Bible was written 40-60 years after Jesus's supposed death.

The teachings of Muhhamed were heavily Influenced by Judaic teachings and obviously Christian. Muhhamed refers to Jesus many times in the Koran, no ?

Deep



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:06 PM
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Theres a theory that says mohamed received his instructions from the vatican. His first wife was a rich catholic with connections in rome. this is highly offensive to moslems

Judaism as a religion does not hate the ishmaelites/moslems, however much deragatory and insulting language is used in judaic text when they refer to christianity or to its founder

worldwatcher: islam and christianity are over 600 years apart as mentioned in seekerof's post



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:10 PM
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Theres a theory that says mohamed received his instructions from the vatican. His first wife was a rich catholic with connections in rome. this is highly offensive to moslems



Just say he did receive his instructions from the Vaticant, what does that prove ? Why would the Vaticant have a man conjur another doctrine ?

Deep



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:16 PM
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Maybe it's just me, but...I always just assumed that there was a correlation between Christianity and Islam. I recall a conversation with a muslim gentleman who read not only from the Quran but the Gnostic gospels as well. He told that all Muslims believed Christ to be a prophet (not the Messiah) of God and that Mohammed was simply the last of these prophets. I guess I could have been dealing with a very liberal individual, but from my perspective, I assumed this was a common belief.

It would also make sense if you look at the bible itself. Many of the stories that appear in the Old Testament are nothing more than recycled fables and legends from earlier civilizations.



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
WorldWatcher, what are you talking about ?

Islam was Instintutionalized ( I think I spelled that wrong ) in 600 ad by Prophet Mohhamed. The first Bible was written 40-60 years after Jesus's supposed death.

The teachings of Muhhamed were heavily Influenced by Judaic teachings and obviously Christian. Muhhamed refers to Jesus many times in the Koran, no ?

Deep


i don't know what I am really talking about at this point deep, sorry for any misquotes...you are right in that the koran does mention Jesus...but I still think the origins are more Judaism related than Christianity... and forgive me in advance for any additional stupid comments I make, i took medication and I am feeling funny



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:17 PM
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Those far seeing wise men of those days saw that Islam would become the Sword of God against the Enemies of Christ

The Islamic doctrine is a more perfect one than the vaticans, Its philosophy produces fearless fighters willing to die



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:18 PM
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Seekerof - In my short time here at ATS, I must say you have made some of the best posts and threads I have seen


This seems to be very likely - if one could prove it somehow, I wonder how this would influence the current middle east.



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:23 PM
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He told that all Muslims believed Christ to be a prophet (not the Messiah) of God and that Mohammed was simply the last of these prophets. I guess I could have been dealing with a very liberal individual, but from my perspective, I assumed this was a common belief.



Yes, they believe him to be called ESA ( Jesus ), he was not crucified either, but God sent a cloud down to wisk him away to heaven. A deciple was burnt at the stake instead.





Those far seeing wise men of those days saw that Islam would become the Sword of God against the Enemies of Christ


Interesting. Im not to sure what relationship the Vaticant has with the Islamic world in this day and age though.....

I find it ammusing to beleive that Prophet Muhhamed, an illiteral, could have written the entire Koran by himself.

Deep



posted on Apr, 22 2004 @ 07:29 PM
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there is no way Muhammed could have written the Koran, because it started out as verbal story passed from Muhammed to others before actually being committed to writing, I am sure the actual writers took some creative liberties same as with Bible.



posted on Apr, 23 2004 @ 08:42 AM
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Doesn't quite fit in here, but theres a program on this sunday 8pm Channel 4 (UK tv) about the worlds three main religions being linked together by abraham. Its a three part documentry so check it out



posted on Apr, 23 2004 @ 09:19 AM
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I doubt that it was created by Christians to evangelize the Arabs -- however, that being said, there are a LOT of religions that are made by synthesizing two other religions. The ones that come to mind are the Bah'ai (synthesizing Christianity and Islam and producing a new line of prophets), Voodoo (Catholicism and West African religions), Santaria (ditto, with some Voodoo thrown in), and so on and so forth. Many Catholic saints were actually pagan gods/heroes.

There's no doubt that it's an Abrahamic religion, though, and yes the Muslims, Jews, and Christians all derive their worship of the same deity (Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah/etc) from the same base religion. Most of the prophets are held in common by all the religions (Jews don't recognize Jesus and the disciples, of course, as prophets.)

But the "derived from the Bible" bit... eh... I'd want to see more evidence on that one.



posted on Apr, 23 2004 @ 02:16 PM
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Yahweh, Jehovah and Allah are not necessarily the same god(s).

Allah would be more synonymous with just Eloh or Elohim, as opposed to YHVH Elohim, Yahweh Elohim or whatever.

There is nothing in the Qur'an that indicates an equation of Allah with YHVH. As far as I know; the Tetragrammaton is not even found anywhere in the Qur'an.

Also; the way that the Tetregrammaton is pronounced, denotes different interpretations or aspects of YHVH according to Gnostics and Kabbalists.
An example would be the difference between the violent anthropomorphic war-god Yahweh; and the true Infinite Absolute Divinity.




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[Edited on 23-4-2004 by Tamahu]



posted on Apr, 23 2004 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by Tamahu
Yahweh, Jehovah and Allah are not necessarily the same god(s).

Allah would be more synonymous with just Eloh or Elohim, as opposed to YHVH Elohim, Yahweh Elohim or whatever. [Edited on 23-4-2004 by Tamahu]


Do you have any links or books on this subject? I'm fascinated with your post. I had always assumed that since both were descendants of Abraham that their one commonality was the belief in the same god. I also assumed that the Yahweh/Elohim difference was attributable to two different authors or scribes of the Torah.




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