U.S. rattled as Mexico drug war bleeds over border

Originally posted by Fox News

Originally posted by Nemox42
reply to post by Fox News

 

If you really want to see drop in violent crimes in the US, take away all the guns from all civilian people. I PROMISE YOU THE CRIME RATE WILL DROP.

You know, something? I personally hate guns and I personally would never own a gun, but I have to say that that is the most naive statement I've ever heard in my life.

First of all, the founders of this country were quite brilliant, and they themselves put in the 2nd amendment: the right to bear arms. And they did this not because they wanted us to have the right to go around shooting each other, but because they knew that an armed militia (read the second amendment carefully) was the best way of the people to defend themselves as a whole....whether against foreign invaders or their own government.

Second of all, if you take the guns away from the law-abiding citizens, the only ones who will have them will then be the non-law abiding citizens, because making anything illegal does not stop criminals from getting whatever it is they want, because they have no basic respect for the law. So then, you have the criminals with guns, who now know that it's illegal for the general public to own a gun, so then crime will go through the roof because the criminals no longer have to worry about getting shot when he's invading a home, because nobody there has a gun.

Plus, if the government knows that the general population is unarmed, what do you think is going to prevent them from all of a sudden doing something akin to...oh, let's say, taking away all our property or land or our savings from the banks to pay off our national debt to China? If we weren't armed, nothing would stop them, because they know that the people could revolt at any minute.

(So, instead of doing one big huge outrageous thing all at once, they do it in small increments, so we don't notice....like a frog getting boiled alive. But...I digress.)

Anyway, I hate guns, but I'm all for the right to bear arms. I personally don't want a gun, and I will never own a gun, but there is a reason that the second amendment was put into the constitution, and one of the the main reason is i to protect us from our own government. And God knows, we do need that right now!

[edit on 1-3-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 1-3-2009 by nikiano]

What I don't get is that many people are ready to load up on guns and ammo to take on the Mexican gang but yet do no such thing to the gangs that are American and creating havoc throughout our country. Murder is murder no matter how gruesome it is.

In 2005-2006, Mexico, President Fox, was on the verge of OKing a certain amount if you know what I mean.

US opposed and Mexico backed off.

In 2006, Calderon takes over and declares war.

How is it possible to go from one extreme to another so quickly?

In 2007, US approve Merida Initiative to help Calderon fight the war.

Around this time US politics started picking up and mainly Republicans started the illegal immigrant chant. Then the illegal immigrant chant got mixed in with the war on drugs and terrorism.

Next thing you know the media is reporting how unsafe we are and causing panic because the border isn't secured.

Once again there seems to be a timing on all of this.

End of 2008, the US military predicts that Mexico is on the verge of collapse.

When was the last time you heard the US military make this kind of prediction?

This tells me that the military is drawing up a plan for Mexico.

Now we have the current situation where most of the border towns are quick to blame every little problem on Mexico's drug war.

Could the reason for this be because they are hoping Washington sends them more funding so they can use how they see fit?

reply to post by nikiano


so basically you want your cake and eat it too. You want to be able to bear arms but yet you want magically criminals not to have them. And your calling me naive? What i was trying to get was that, if you want violent crime to stop, stop giving the criminal the tools to use violent weapons. You want drive bys to stop, stop selling guns to gang bangers. If you haven't notice, there isn't a criminal sign slapped on every criminal you meet. A criminal can be your freaking neighbor, so what? They can't bear arms too? Last time I checked, criminals are also citizens of the united freaking states too.

I lived on a Border City for 20 years in Texas and I still remember when a Know Drug Lord built his house a stone throws away from the Rio Grande Built an underground railroad that opened up from underneath a pool table and did not get caught for 10 years.

See that's what is wrong with people. They want the best but yet they don't want to sacrifice stuff, well too freaking bad. That's reality, some things need to be sacrifice. If we outlawed all guns to all civilians, how are these criminals going to get it then? Its not like "Joe" criminal can go rob your house and steal your gun to use in violent crimes now, or "Joe" criminal can rob a Target and load up on as many guns as they want. IF YOU DON'T PROVIDE THE TOOL HOW ARE THEY GOING TO USE IT AGAINST YOU?!

Occam's Razor. As long as there is demand for drugs in the United States, there will be supply to meet it. Colombia used to be the largest exporter of coc aine and now it's Mexico. Didn't we use to say "Those Colombians" back in the 80s? Now it's "Those Mexicans". If we "take care" of Mexico, another country will replace the supply source. Guess what? We'll be blaming the new country and doing nothing about our demand, which is where the real cancer is.

Our Drug War has been the most effective war ever fought in the history of the United States. It has kept drug prices up! You control the supply and eliminate your competition and you have yourself a very nice MONOPOLY.

People, when are we going to stop playing the blame game and start looking at the source of the problem(s)? It's not Mexico; it's our demand, which has to be met. You end the demand and that takes care of the supply.

The blame game is a pure waste of energy and resources!

Oh, and yes, the right to bear arms is a right worth dying for, for if we lose that right, we lose our freedom!

[edit on 2-3-2009 by Exopolitico]

Originally posted by nikiano
Originally posted by Fox News

Originally posted by Nemox42
reply to post by Fox News

 

Plus, if the government knows that the general population is unarmed, what do you think is going to prevent them from all of a sudden doing something akin to...oh, let's say, taking away all our property or land or our savings from the banks to pay off our national debt to China?

[edit on 1-3-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 1-3-2009 by nikiano]

sorry to say this sister, but if uncle Sam really wanted to take your sh*t by force your 9mm and 12 gauge shotgun is not going to stop them. The second amendment was meant for that reason hundreds of years ago aka forming a militia, but today that rule is a bit outdated but yet we all still intrepid as if the guns we own is going to be a lick of a difference if uncle Sam really wanted to take our stuff.

reply to post by Exopolitico


Starred. Unfortunately, when our MSM and politicians are blaming the Mexicans, you can expect many to follow their lead.

Originally posted by Exopolitico
Occam's Razor. As long as there is demand for drugs in the United States, there will be supply to meet it. Colombia used to be the largest exporter of coc aine and now it's Mexico. Didnd't we used to say "Those Colombians" back in the 80s? We "take care" of Mexico and another country will replace the supply source. Guess what? We'll be blaming the new country and doing nothing about our demand.

Our Drug War has been the most effective war ever fought in the history of the United States. It has kept drug prices up! You control the supply and eliminate your competition and you have yourself a very nice MONOPOLY.

People, when are we going to stop playing the blame game and start looking at the source of the problem(s)? It's not Mexico; it's our demand, which has to be met. You end the demand and there goes the supply.

The blame game is a pure waste of energy and resources!

[edit on 1-3-2009 by Exopolitico]

I COULDN'T SAY IT ANY BETTER. THANK YOU! YOU WANNA BLAME SOMEONE START POINTING FINGERS AT YOURSELVES. BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, ITS TRUE.

reply to post by Nemox42


Well, first of all, I never said anything about not wanting criminals to have guns. Sure, we'd all love that, but it's not very realistic. Since the dawn of time, criminal cavemen have probably been hiding extra-large clubs in the back of their caves to knock out their unsuspecting cave-men neighbors and steal their newly-caught saber-tooth-tiger-dinners from them.

Is it fair? No. But criminals are not known for being fair.

The truth is, even if guns were outlawed, completely, and it was illegal to find them, make them, buy them, sell them, or trade them, they would find them. And if some magic gun-disappearing machine came on the market to eradicate all of the guns in the world in one fell swoop, you can better believe that the criminals would find something else to use. Sonic weapons, or tasers, or something.


So, yes, ideally, I would LOVE for there to be no guns. I would LOVE for the crime rate to be zero. And I would love to have a perfectly moral and non-corrupt government that we could trust 100% of the time to do what is best for their country.

But realistically? There have always been criminals and there will always be ciminals, and they criminal element is probably one of the most resourceful elements out there. As long as there are guns and as long as guns are the best "weapon" out there, criminals will find some way to get their hands on them. And governments have always gotten out of hand due to corruption. So, sadly as it is, if the criminals are going to have the guns, and if the government is going to be corrupt, I feel better with guns being legal, even though I do not have one myself. It at least evens out the odds.

And personally, with the war coming up from Mexico (and me not living too far away from the border!) I am happy to let the citizens of Phoenix carry their guns.

Here in Arizona, it is still legal for someone to walk down the middle of the street with a gun on each hip. No kidding....just like back in the Wild West. So, if for some reason, the cartel violence starts to spill over even worse here in Phoenix....I'm thinking that they're going to think twice before they start to push around our citizens. Because right now, the fighting is in-fighting different criminal elements, I think.

But if the violence spreads to the non-criminal element.....and if there is no national guard watching over our city when the SHTF.... I can assure you that the citizens here will fight back. I would fight back, too, if it came down to self-defense.





[edit on 1-3-2009 by nikiano]

Originally posted by jam321


When was the last time you heard the US military make this kind of prediction?

I noticed that too. Very brazen warning coming from a normally conservative State Department.

Originally posted by nikiano
reply to post by Nemox42

 

Well, first of all, I never said anything about not wanting criminals to have guns. Sure, we'd all love that, but it's not very realistic. Since the dawn of time, criminal cavemen probably had an extra-large club hidden in the back of his cave to knock out unsuspecting cave-men neighbor and steal his saber-tooth-tiger-dinner from him. Is it fair? No. But criminals are not known for being fair.

The truth is, even if guns were outlawed, completely, and it was illegal to find them, make them, buy them, sell them, or trade them, they would find them. And if some magic gun-disappearing machine came on the market to eradicate all of the guns in the world in one fell swoop, you can better believe that the criminals would find something else to use. Sonic weapons, or tasers, or something.


So, yes, ideally, I would LOVE for there to be no guns. I would LOVE for the crime rate to be zero. But realistically? There have always been criminals and there will always be ciminals, and they criminal element is probably one of the most resourceful elements out there. As long as there are guns and as long as guns are the best "weapon" out there, criminals will find some way to get their hands on them.

And personally, with the war coming up from Mexico (and me not living too far away from the border!) I am happy to let the citizens of Phoenix carry their guns.

Here in Arizona, it is still legal for someone to walk down the middle of the street with a gun on each hip. No kidding....just like back in the Wild West. So, if for some reason, the cartel violence starts to spill over even worse here in Phoenix....I'm thinking that they're going to think twice before they start to push around our citizens. Because right now, the fighting is in-fighting different criminal elements, I think. But if the violence spreads to the non-criminal element.....and if there is no national guard watching over our city when the SHTF.... I can assure you that the citizens here will fight back. I would fight back, too, if it came down to self-defense.

So now its a problem huh? What about 40 ago when a majority of this stuff started? Its not a problem when Mexicans civilians have to deal with this, but once our own kids and citizens start to feel the ripple affect hell lets raise hell now. Sounds to me, its so convenient that people are willing to take up arms to protect themselves and their own rights when it starts to affect them, but when other people suffer they do nothing about it. Because it doesn't concern them.

reply to post by Nemox42


Dude, you're barking up the wrong tree. I hate violence and cruelty so much that I'm a vegetarian.

I'm such a pacifist, that I cannot even kill a bug or a spider. Seriously....I take them outside and set them free.

But the 2nd amendment is there for a reason. And all I can say is thank God it's still there, because I smell something big coming down the line with Mexico, and if another Mexican-American war does come down the line, this little petite pacifist is going to find herself standing next to the nearest and closest, hunka-hunka, gun-toting, bicep-bursting, ex-marine that I can find to stand next to for protection.




[edit on 2-3-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by nikiano


Your over thinking things. The mexican government WILL NEVER DECLARE WAR ON US. THEY SH*T THEIR PANTS IF THEY EVEN CONSIDER THE FACT. Let me give you some prove, during world war I, the germany tried to make a secret pack with mexico to invade and declare war on the US. Because they were scared that the US would enter the World War, which actually did happen. The german's told mexico if they did help them, they would give texas and other provinces that orginally belong to mexico back to them. They still declined, why? because Germany would have never been able to help send supply and Mexico knew they would never have the man-power do to fight a war against a powerhouse like the US. Now on to this fact, Frankly. Drug related violence has been spilling over the border to the US for DECADES. So why is it now your scared these mexicans are going to invade us, for what? These cartels dont have a formal army, AND PLUS THEY LOOK AT AMERICAN AS CASH COWS. THEY DONT WANT TO KILL EACH, THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY OFF US. DON"T YOU GET IT? IF THEY WERE TO KILL US, WHERE WOULD THEY MAKE MONEY FROM??? I understand your concern that your scared this violence might turn up in your community and at your door step, but frankly sister. UNLESS YOUR SELLING DRUGS OR DOING DRUGS OR HAVE SOME WAY CONNECTION TO THE DRUG CARTELS OR GANGS IN GENERAL. I DOUBT THIS WILL EVER EVER AFFECT YOU. The worst that can happen is some drug addicted junkie might rob you so they can buy more coke, and frankly that is a problem that is domestic issue. NOT A FOREIGN ONE. These drug dealers are not forcing coke and heroine down our throats. ITS OUR GREED THAT DOES THAT.

reply to post by David9176


I live in Phoenix and now I carry a gun EVERYWHERE. I also have an AR-15 loaded and ready in my home. This is how we must live here now.

I'm absolutely convinced the federal government not only wants this to happen, but they want it to get worse. There is simply no other explanation for their refusing to enforce border laws. Even when the locals try to enforce the laws that the FEDS are supposed to enforce, the federal government fights them every step of the way.

The first time one of our citizens gets caught up in the on-going battle between the drug cartels and the Federales, our entire nation will be lead by the nose to direct our attention to this rapidly over-pressurized situation.

The US has been the relief valve for Mexican politicians for many decades. The fact that we can no longer support their indigenous poor and, therefore, we are growing restless for a solution to our mutual entanglements, means we will soon either confront our nations' troubled intertwined history honestly and diligently....or face the consequences of the combined frailty of our leaders and ourselves.

There no longer exists a "third" option.

Well said! That was the best explanation of the 2nd Amendment I've ever seen. Even anti-gun nuts should be able to understand it, although they'll certainly refuse to acknowledge it's truthfulness, as they do with the First Amendment when someone posts something they deem "offensive".

Originally posted by LeelaSavage
The first time one of our citizens gets caught up in the on-going battle between the drug cartels and the Federales, our entire nation will be lead by the nose to direct our attention to this rapidly over-pressurized situation.

The US has been the relief valve for Mexican politicians for many decades. The fact that we can no longer support their indigenous poor and, therefore, we are growing restless for a solution to our mutual entanglements, means we will soon either confront our nations' troubled intertwined history honestly and diligently....or face the consequences of the combined frailty of our leaders and ourselves.

There no longer exists a "third" option.

Uncle Sam's been saying they will do something about drugs for along time, but frankly. Short of actually supplying troops to actually go over there and take care of the problem themselves, this will never get solved. Like the other poster mention, Before this thing with Mexico got heated, it was Columbia that was the hot topic of the drug war. And once or if we taken care of Mexico, another third world country will take up the mantle. Frankly, every solution sort of actually committing armed solders to go there to take care of this, I see no solution. The Mexican government just doesn't have what it takes to take care of this problem, its too big for them to handle themselves.

Originally posted by David9176

I don't know how bad it is for other countries...but I don't see people getting robbed every day by me. I don't see people getting shot in killed everyday. Most of these statistics come from cities...not the rest of the country where the crime rate is much lower.

Everyone thinks the crime rates are highest in the big cities. Well the concentration of people is often hundreds of times greater than the countryside, so the numbers are so high.

Check some time the murder, rape, violent crime rate per capita statistics for small towns, suburbs, rural areas. Usually much higher than the big city.


Mike F

Originally posted by jam321
What I don't get is that many people are ready to load up on guns and ammo to take on the Mexican gang but yet do no such thing to the gangs that are American and creating havoc throughout our country. Murder is murder no matter how gruesome it is.

In 2005-2006, Mexico, President Fox, was on the verge of OKing a certain amount if you know what I mean.

US opposed and Mexico backed off.

In 2006, Calderon takes over and declares war.

How is it possible to go from one extreme to another so quickly?

In 2007, US approve Merida Initiative to help Calderon fight the war.

Around this time US politics started picking up and mainly Republicans started the illegal immigrant chant. Then the illegal immigrant chant got mixed in with the war on drugs and terrorism.

Next thing you know the media is reporting how unsafe we are and causing panic because the border isn't secured.

Once again there seems to be a timing on all of this.

End of 2008, the US military predicts that Mexico is on the verge of collapse.

When was the last time you heard the US military make this kind of prediction?

This tells me that the military is drawing up a plan for Mexico.

Now we have the current situation where most of the border towns are quick to blame every little problem on Mexico's drug war.

Could the reason for this be because they are hoping Washington sends them more funding so they can use how they see fit?

Very nice synopsys, and I remember things pretty much as you describe, however you're forgetting one thing. When the Republicans, who were in power at the time, brought up illegal immigration, it was in relation to amnesty for illegal immigrants. Knowing that amnesty was on the horizon, since now both Republicans AND Democrats were pushing for it, We were deluged with Mexicans and other South Americans crossing the border like never before.

Once here, the debate over amnesty raged but amnesty never came. Now these Mexicans are either settled into jobs or have resorted to crime, and more continue to cross the border. I live in Phoenix and I've seen it all very clearly. The violent crime rate has skyrocketed, albiet mostly between Mexican gangs. Still, when I see that these gangs have beheaded the Tijuana Police Chief and dumped his headless body on the side of the road because he promised to crack down on drug violence, and I hear that they are now settling in U.S. towns, and I hear that they've hired American-trained mercenaries, I find it impossible to feel safe anymore. You would be a fool to live here and not feel that way.