Genes, bloodlines, and personality disorders.

I've been doing some research on Cluster B personality disorders as a private project, in an attempt to better understand the issues in my maternal genetic line, but it dawned on me that if this theory is true, it could also mean a genetic basis for disorders that frankly preclude things like compassion, conscience, or empathy with others.

From this site:

Cluster B Personality Disorders are evidenced by dramatic, erratic behaviors and include Histrionic, Narcissistic, Antisocial and Borderline Personality Disorders.

And from wiki:

Antisocial personality disorder (APD) [...]: "The essential feature for the diagnosis is a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."[1]

And further:

People having antisocial personality disorder are sometimes referred to as "sociopaths" and "psychopaths", although some researchers believe that Psychopathy/Sociopathy are not synonymous with APD.[2] It is not to be confused with Avoidant Personality Disorder, which more accurately describes people colloquially referred to as "anti-social".

Uncertainty still exists, sure, but given the nature of other disorders within the Cluster B spectrum, I think there's a strong suggestion that whatever's at play involves the same core traits, which means that... if any of this cluster are genetic in basis, then it would logically follow that others likely are as well. Citing NPD as an example of the similarities between two Cluster B disorders:

link[/ b]

What is Narcissism?

A pattern of traits and behaviors which signify infatuation and obsession with one's self to the exclusion of all others and the egotistic and ruthless pursuit of one's gratification, dominance and ambition.

Speaking with experience here, a person with NPD often does not recognize other human beings as more than resources for them, and NPD is (like most of this cluster) extremely resistant to treatment, because the very things causing the disorder tell the sufferer that they're perfectly alright--it's everyone else who's got it wrong.

Paper that suggests a genetic link.

Quote:

Cluster B personality disorders are associated with allelic variation of monoamine oxidase A activity.

Which is in reference to this same paper. I hate to rest an entire argument on the strength of one source, but given that the research is relatively new (2005) and the lack of counter-research, I think this may be the final word on it for the time being.

How this ties in with conspiracies in general: If you posit a small group of families who consistently maintain power, particularly by acting in a way that the majority finds questionable (lacking compassion, empathy, or even a sense of how their actions affect others negatively at all), which we do see as the case, not just currently but historically... then the question of what makes those families and bloodlines so different must be asked.

This is not to say that every member of a family that includes the Cluster B disorders will automatically be affected--I can cite anecdotal evidence there, at least--but for the majority, particularly when reinforced by environment, I think it's more likely to manifest than not.

Disclaimer: This is only speculation on my part. I am not a geneticist, I barely even qualify as a dabbler. I don't personally subscribe to the NWO theory, but I find this link very intriguing all the same. This post is submitted as a potential curiosity that might or might not explain anything at all, and if it's been covered already, please ignore.


[edit on 1-3-2009 by quitebored]

Thank you for the good read!!

I was drawn right in with this, and I think what you propose may be possible.
Or maybe not...

Were in the same boat there.

Got any more? I look forward to hearing from others.

Good post.

reply to post by pureevil81


More theories, or more links? I had heard mention of a potential genetic basis for B Cluster disorders before, and set out to track down sources (plural), but it all seemed to come down to that one study, which is somewhat annoying.

Granted, it seems to be a good, solid study... but single data points != conclusive, imho, so without more info, it has to remain a question mark.

Would like to hear more on this from others, though, is anyone has further info. On the one hand, it would explain a great deal if the basis was genetic, but on the other... well. Genes are not 100%. You can have the markers for things that never express, and that may be true for personality disorders, as well.

reply to post by quitebored


More theories or more links man, more info. period.

If not I guess we wait for feedback.

I see the connection your making here, I just want more.... it is plausible but is it probable? I dont know.

reply to post by pureevil81


I really only had the one theory.

Info on the various disorders can be found via google search on "Cluster B personality disorders" ...the genetic basis, though, is in that paper I linked to, which I don't have a copy of entire (and couldn't reprint here if I did, unfortunately) but it seems to be accepted as a potential explanation for these kinds of disorders... more or less. There's still some debate, obviously.

But I have to say, statistically, it seems more likely to be true than not. It's been known for a while that children of Narcissists tend to develop one of the B Cluster disorders themselves, even if their contact with that parent is limited/nonexistent.

On the other hand, we also have cases of people who developed B Cluster disorders without a prior history in the family, and children who don't have those disorders despite having a strong family history of them.

My opinion on it is that genetics are a factor, but they're not the only one at work. Much like most things in the genes, frankly.

Well, I have borderline personality disorder. People with borderline personalities tend to have a distorted view of themselves. It can either be extremely positive (delusions f Grandeur and such) or extremely negative. I am one of only 2% of all diagnosed borderline personality, beings I am a male. This is somethings that is much more prevalent in females than males.

Here is an outline of the characteristics of borderline personality disorder:

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is a psychiatric diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV Personality Disorders 301.83[1]) that describes a prolonged disturbance of personality function characterized by depth and variability of moods.[2] The disorder typically involves unusual levels of instability in mood; "black and white" thinking, or "splitting"; chaotic and unstable interpersonal relationships, self-image, identity, and behavior; as well as a disturbance in the individual's sense of self. In extreme cases, this disturbance in the sense of self can lead to periods of dissociation.[3] These disturbances can have a pervasive negative impact on many or all of the psychosocial facets of life. This includes difficulties maintaining relationships in work, home, and social settings

Borderline

Many think that borderline personality is a forerunner to schizoid persoality disorder. Basically, schizoid personalities are extreme examples of social avoidants. Here is a synopsis of the characteristics of a schzoid personality disorder:

What is Schizoid Personality Disorder?
Individuals with schizoid personality are characteristically detached from social relationships and show a restricted range of expressed emotions. Their social skills, as would be expected, are weak, and they do not typically express a need for attention or approval. They may be perceived by others as somber and aloof, and often are referred to as "loners."

1. neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
2. almost always chooses solitary activities
3. has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
4. takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
5. lacks close friends or confidantes other than first-degree relatives
6. appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
7. shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity

Schizoids

Now, when I was diagnosed as borderline personality, my psychologist was frank when she said, "I am not too sure that you don't suffer from schizoid personality disorder. The only thing keeping me from doing so is that I do think you'd like to develop relationships, you just really have no concept about how to do it."

As far as it being genetic, I really don't know. My mother was fairly outgoing and happy. However, my father wasn't so much. I mean, he was friendly, but he wasn't overtly social.

I have never researched or looked into many mental disorders/conditions but feel that one of my children is suffering from something along these lines. The Cluster B type of disorders...or possibly the BPD condition you have been diagnosed with Speaker.

I (and others) have had many suspicions about our maternal bloodline in particular my mother...however she was also a substance and alcohol abuser so it was hard to tell if she actually had some sort of psychiatric condition or just a really bad drunk...I still think there was something going on there underneath the alcohol though. Her mother, my maternal grandmother put her up for adoption so we've never met her, but we have learned many things about this birth mother from others in that community and my adoptive grandparents that she too had a lot of issues...alcoholism only one of them. So it's interesting that even though my mother was not raised by this woman that the exact same traits would trickle down.

Unfortunately...even though my son has never met my mother it's seeming that perhaps they've trickled down to yet a third totally innocent and undeserving generation. I'd be very interested in learning more about BPD and/or these cluster B personality disorders...especially in relation to younger children. If either of you (quitebored or Speaker) could give me some more links I'd appreciate it. For now I'll read through the ones you've posted.

Michelle


edit to add that I have 3 children in total, all 3 boys. The one seemingly affected is the middle child even though all three have been raised consistently in the same household, same rules, same discipline etc...very interesting how different they're turning out!


[edit on 1-3-2009 by Michelle129]

Do these "disorders" have to be genetic?
Seems to me that they are as likely to be a matter of influence.
Too much or too little family affection.
As in those Romanian children that were up for adoption some years back.

I think this "personality disorder" thing is much over rated. We have normal people growing up in a variety of environments. We can't just give them some kind of label just because they are different.

General behavior is inherited. This is the basis for all the special breeds of animals. We have hyped up sled dogs that want to run all day we have dogs that love to retrieve objects for us etc. In this regard humans are mutts and talents positive and negative are passed on willy-nilly.

I spent my first 7 years lving in the boonies. Except for my city cousins who visited in the summer I had no friends my age. I hardly even saw other childen until I went to school. Our move to the city was highly traumatic for me. My first days in the new school were terrifying. So may kids all running around and making so much noise. No one talked to me.
Teacher wasn't friendly. About 2 weeks later we moved to a county suburb and there was a smaller school that was better. It had only 4 rooms and outdoor plumbing - like I was accusomed to. I found a friend who lived across the street, and my cousins were only a few blocks away.

I do like being by myself. I have at present no friends - in the sense of people I visit or go places with. When alone in social situations, I am very uncomfortable. I don't get very far with the usual "smile, hello & small talk". On the other hand if I am approached thusly all goes well and we have a great conversation.
I would say that I am asocial.
And I don't consider that I have any kind of personality disorder.

Very interesting topic.

I would have to agree it seems psychiatric disorders follow maternal bloodlines. My mother was diagnoised with bi-polarism and manic depression. Twenty years ago I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. My inital reaction was 'screw you' lol Having a long held interest in psychology my research yielded some attributes I could honestly associate with. I have a side question for you. Can these disorders be overcome or receed as a person gets older? I'm toally into personal responsibility and I read a lot Dr. Robert Scott Pecks books including 'The Road Less Traveled' which was truly enlightening for me.

I'm a loner, but also an only child. I don't feel a strong need to go out there and make close relationships but instead chose to nurture the few I do have. I'd rather go do activites by myself like go to the movies ect which the one friend I have can't seem to understand. Hey, I'm good company lol

One final comment you might find of interest. It's been a long held belief that extra ordinary talents also follow the maternal bloodline. Esp, psychic abilities and such.

Originally posted by Michelle129


I (and others) have had many suspicions about our maternal bloodline in particular my mother...however she was also a substance and alcohol abuser so it was hard to tell if she actually had some sort of psychiatric condition or just a really bad drunk...I still think there was something going on there underneath the alcohol though.

I can tell you that I am from a long line of people who have sufferered from these types of disorders. People who have these types of issues will often tend to over indulge in alcohol as a means of self medication. If your Mom never sought help for her condition, the alcohol was her medication.

Her mother, my maternal grandmother put her up for adoption so we've never met her, but we have learned many things about this birth mother from others in that community and my adoptive grandparents that she too had a lot of issues...alcoholism only one of them.

See what I mean? I think these types of disorders are confused with alcoholism, or the two go hand in hand, since alcoholism is also considered an inherited disease, according to the Dr. I saw.

So it's interesting that even though my mother was not raised by this woman that the exact same traits would trickle down.

I also think it is interesting that these disorders and alcoholism both seem to be something inherited.

Unfortunately...even though my son has never met my mother it's seeming that perhaps they've trickled down to yet a third totally innocent and undeserving generation.

It is sad that and innocent person, has been affected by inherited genes! I have come to the conclusion that my mother never should have had any childred, because outside of being my mother, she is the mother of all the diseases in question on this thread. Thanks, MOM! Lets say my entire family is very disfunctional, as at least 3 out of 4 of us got some of her curses! Also, I have come to the conclusion that birds of a feather tend to flock together in cases like this. I think my family got a double whammy somehow, because my Dad also had relatives who matched a lot of these diseases including his own mother (if not himself to some degree.) It seems to me that people who suffer from these types of illnesses are attracted to each other.

While you have not addressed me, I hope you don't mind me jumping in with some of my own experiences on the subject.

In any case, it would not hurt for you to have your child evaluated, and watch the others closely. I had no symptoms until I went through puberty.

Originally posted by Whisper67
I would have to agree it seems psychiatric disorders follow maternal bloodlines. My mother was diagnoised with bi-polarism and manic depression. Twenty years ago I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. My inital reaction was 'screw you' lol Having a long held interest in psychology my research yielded some attributes I could honestly associate with. I have a side question for you. Can these disorders be overcome or receed as a person gets older? I'm toally into personal responsibility and I read a lot Dr. Robert Scott Pecks books including 'The Road Less Traveled' which was truly enlightening for me.

That's a really good question, actually, and a tricky one to answer. My thinking on it is that it depends on the degree to which the individual is affected. If it's part of a spectrum (which would make sense to me) then the degree of severity would vary, similar to autism... but it's also not that simple, I think environment and attitude plays a role in it too... so yes, I think it can be overcome, at least on one end of the spectrum, potentially.

A better parallel might be addictive disorders, though there's been a lot of debate as to the genetic basis for those, as well. That's likely to be a problem with anything presenting as behavioral, though; it's hard to prove a genetic basis with things that are seen by the unaffected as a matter of choice.

My experience has been this: my mother, grandmother, and one sister all have varying degrees of two B Cluster disorders, NPD being primary. I don't have NPD, but do tend to score highly on histrionic and borderline personality disorders.

I'm also a firm believer in personal responsibility, though, and recognized what was behind my feelings when others in the family were diagnosed, so I learned to pick and choose which emotions to act on. Never 100%, but enough to live a relatively normal life, I think.

So... yes, I think it's possible to have the genes and overcome them, but I also think that some percentage might be affected too much for that kind of compensation to be possible. It's very hard to fight your own instincts, especially when it comes to what your emotions tell you is true.

I'm a loner, but also an only child. I don't feel a strong need to go out there and make close relationships but instead chose to nurture the few I do have. I'd rather go do activites by myself like go to the movies ect which the one friend I have can't seem to understand. Hey, I'm good company lol

Same here, actually. I don't know about you, but one of the things I felt as a child was that other people were... just not necessary. I wish there were a better way of putting it than that, but that's how it felt. There are still very few people that I feel an emotional connection to, and I worry about the quality of what I can offer them emotionally, which makes me even less inclined to get close to others.

One final comment you might find of interest. It's been a long held belief that extra ordinary talents also follow the maternal bloodline. Esp, psychic abilities and such.

Interesting. This makes sense, though--mitochondrial DNA comes directly from the mother, and any traits it contains would be undiluted, if I recall my Genetics classes correctly.

Yes, most personality disorders do have a genetic component.

For instance: Possible Genetic Causes of Borderline Personality Disorder Identified, ScienceDaily, 20 Dec. 2008.

However, genes are only half the story. Between the gene and the final expression of the trait it helps determine is a long chain of biochemical events that begin during embryonic development and continue into childhood. This is the period during which your genes work to build your body and brain.

These biochemical processes are often strongly affected by environmental factors - for instance, the mix of hormones the fetus is exposed to in the womb.

It seems to be a combination of nature and nurture that creates personality disorders. Not everyone who carries the necessary genes need necessarily, as far as we know, develop such a disorder.

I have a sister with Borderline Personality Disorder. Our maternal grandmother also had it, and our great-grandmother.

To OhZone who said:

I think this "personality disorder" thing is much over rated. We have normal people growing up in a variety of environments. We can't just give them some kind of label just because they are different

And no offense to anyone here who has BPD, but this is a serious disorder. It's not just about being different. BPD affects the whole family.
In my case, I have had to sever ties with my sister who has this disorder. It was a very hard thing to do, but to save my own sanity, it had to be done.

I do believe it is inherited. I wish my sister would take her medicine, but she won't and I can't be around her like she is.

Originally posted by Clark W. Griswold

And no offense to anyone here who has BPD, but this is a serious disorder. It's not just about being different. BPD affects the whole family.
In my case, I have had to sever ties with my sister who has this disorder. It was a very hard thing to do, but to save my own sanity, it had to be done.

I think this is very common. I appreciate what you had to say here, since people with BPD often tend to me loners for this reason. It seems they just flounder around. I believe this is sort of sad, because they have inherited a disease, can't really control it, and then get cut off from people that they may have inherited the disease from.

I do believe it is inherited. I wish my sister would take her medicine, but she won't and I can't be around her like she is.

But, I have a few questions about this. Once again, very sad. Does your sister have issues with not being able to afford her meds for her condition, or is she just not willing to take them? Often times, once a person with BPD feels better, they stop taking meds because they do feel better. It's a never ending cycle, one that you don't seem to understand.

Can she afford her meds? That might be a reason she is not taking them.

Also, how far have you researched this, because I kid you not, it is a continous cycle for some of these people to stop taking meds, once they feel like they are ok.

If your sister is cycling, like you seem to describe, she might need your support and encouragement to continue on her meds for the disorder.

While I am sure it is a great strain to continue a relationship with your sister, if she means anything to you, you should be supporting her. Not banishing her to the hell she suffers in.

While I am sure it is a great strain to continue a relationship with your sister, if she means anything to you, you should be supporting her. Not banishing her to the hell she suffers in.

No disrespect intended, but you really have no business lecturing someone on this. I have been in the position of excluding someone from my life because of these sorts of issues, and I can tell you from experience, at times the option to do so is absolutely necessary for self preservation. In my situation, I was able to help affect change in the other person's behavior, but I believe that my willingness to end the abuse and the dependencies were critical to doing so. Others may have thought me cruel, but I did what was necessary, as I am sure "Clark" did.

Originally posted by Grumble


No disrespect intended, but you really have no business lecturing someone on this.

No disrespect taken. I didn't intend this as a lecture. Could it be that I am looking at it from the position of the person being shut out? I am certainly not a mind reader, but I do know that people with these types of illnesses often are not aware of how they affect the people around them. It's part of the BPD illness.

I have been in the position of excluding someone from my life because of these sorts of issues, and I can tell you from experience, at times the option to do so is absolutely necessary for self preservation.

Well, you are the lucky sibling then, not to have been so affected by the illness. While I can appreciate what you are saying, you have not "walked a mile in the shoes" of a person cursed by some of these diseases.

When you speak of self preservation, do you mean for your physical life, or being dragged to the level of the person you are not willing to deal with?
Are you saying your self preservation was for your physical body, or your own mental stability? There is quite a difference, so what do you mean, actually, by self preservation?

In my situation, I was able to help affect change in the other person's behavior, but I believe that my willingness to end the abuse and the dependencies were critical to doing so. Others may have thought me cruel, but I did what was necessary, as I am sure "Clark" did.

Their behavior? I still can't help but think you have no idea what these people go through. It is not just simply their behavior. They have no control over their behavior, which is once again a symptom of the disease. While I can understand you cutting off dependencies, and abuse, you only did it for you, not to really help the person in question.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by Blanca Rose]

The constant hysterics, the family walking on eggshells around her, the lies that she continues to tell,it's the attention getting, the ME, ME, ME, attitude, it's just too much. Too much drama.

She goes through shrinks more often than I fill up my gas tank. She doesn't like what the shrink tells her, so she goes on to the next. She hates being confronted. She loses friends because she alienates them and always has to be the center of attention.

It gets tiring, and after 40 some years of it, I've had enough. For years and years the family tried to help, but she refused our help. Enough is enough.

I edited my post to take out some things I didn't feel comfortable posting.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by Clark W. Griswold]

I'm not so sure that it is genetic or "blooline" related.

I am fairly certain that they will eventually figure out that it is in the meeting point of a genetic propensity, and an epigenetic effect. People in the same family will not only pass along their genes, but the behaviours/diet/fetal-care that impacts how those genes function.

This would eventually be a moderating force of familial culture/behaviour and become a selective force on a gene. If the familial behaviours are so eggregious towards that familes mental health, eventually the epigenetic changes cumulatively become a genetic/meme-behaviour selector.

In other words - if a families bad habits and bad behaviours change how a gene functions, and those changes can be (and are) passed to the next generation along with the behaviours that caused them making the next subsequent generations even more suspectible to further changes in gene function predicated on behaviour.

Eventually these bad family behaviours and the changes in gene regulation they have caused, start to impact the people who have them to the extent that they become less likely to have children themselves and pass these changes on and consequently the associated gene AND family behaviours being impacted in it ability to be passed on.

Narcissists get so bad that they get put in jail. Other B clusters make one difficult to have relationships with. Some of them make people more likely to participate in behaviour that will kill them young. One removes themselves from the gene pool. Whereas, siblings/cousins who change their behaviours to moderate and reverse these epigenetic changes do pass along more genetic material in the long run. By having behaviours that do not make them socially problematic. Or their brains remain more plastic to behaviour modifications over adulthood.

Narcissists do the best in this group for passing their genetic material and behaviours on. However, the very nature of their self-involvement can mean that they have little to do with the day-to-day care of their children. So some of their children are more likely to come out of the experience with a moderated impact from other family members.

There is a long term behaviour-extinction process tied into our genes.

The problem might not be "you" in your genes. And it might not be "you" in those genes changes. And even the changes in your brain might not be "you."

The quest then becomes, how do you get around this familial-behaviour-extinction process that is effecting your brain and your genes. How do you make yourself become - in adulthood - more plastic so that you can evaluate and change your behaviours, then survive the process until the behaviour changes start to change your brain, then survive the process of your brain changing (and consequently fighting those changes - because working systems prefer to use existing systems and processes to conserve energy), until those changes in your brain begin to impact how your body is regulating your genes.


[edit on 2009/3/2 by Aeons]

reply to post by Clark W. Griswold


Yikes, Sparky!

My apologies if I offended you in any way.

Thank you very much for responding and letting people know what it was like for you to deal with a person who suffers from this disease.

Now the comment about self preservation is all the more clearer!

No offense at all, Blanca Rose.

It has been very difficult dealing with this, but I have to say, I feel so much weight lifted off my shoulders since I cut ties. I would like very much to have a relationship with my sister, but until she stops the denial and gets treated, I just can't do it.

I'm not sure I feel comfortable airing my family situation on here, maybe I shouldn't have. I'm going to think about it and may come back and delete it.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by Clark W. Griswold]