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I have lost almost all spirituality

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posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 12:09 AM
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I was once a very spiritual person. I participated in a charismatic christian movement for three years, and resigned from there because I realized that it was based on charisma too much. After that I just believed god exists and abandoned idea of Jesus alltogether.

I begun to read philosophy, theology, psychology and all the science articles I found interesting that I found online. It took ten years of my life, and now I feel empty.

The thing is, some believers are so crazy in their beliefs that I have begun to hate entire parts of population because they just cnanot realize that they could be wrong as well. I know that religion is important, I have nothing against itself in particular. It is the people I am against, religion does not matter to me.

However I still believe in God or some supreme being, just not a christian god. Maybe it is knowledge that messed up my head, some would say devil, but i would say it is reason and logic.

Why it has to be so that religious people are very often immune to reason and logic? What's so wrong in learning how to cathegorically cut our false information, leaving only truth left? What's wrong in debating that bible is true, while its birth story certainly tell that it isn't entirely so?




posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 12:31 AM
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Are you basing this off of what people do in the name of God or Jesus, or are you basing this off of what Jesus and the bible actually says?

See, if I had to base what I know off of what people say about Jesus and God, then I am simply not interested in it. Most of what I see is a bunch of hypocrites who make no sense at all. Their version of God is worse than the worlds most horrible dictator, and they are really just a bunch of slaves.

Their understanding of the bible and such is completely out of touch, makes little to no logical sense and so forth. Thus the high need for blind faith among them. They are exactly what Jesus calls them - the blind leading the blind. Those who operate off blind faith are truly blind.

If I was unable to separate what the father is truly about, and what Jesus was actually saying from those people, I'd probably still not have a favorable opinion of Jesus and the bible. But the thing I've found out about it is - All these things you see Jesus warns about. All these people who call themselves Christians Jesus warns about. The bible even worries about a religion that will come up in the name of Jesus(Christianity). After it was formed we entered into the dark ages where they proceed to kill anyone who doesn't subscribe and go along with this new religion. Sounds familiar doesn't it? It's exactly what Christians of today wait for, but they look at every religion but their own.

True spirituality comes from knowledge and understanding(wisdom). Which is how the father rewards people. It's not about ignorance and blind faith at all. Quite the opposite.

I too love philosophy and all those topics. But they all had the exact opposite effect on me. Quantum Physics for example pretty much proves that Jesus is right.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is a topic about it. And here are 2 of my posts that explain my previous paragraph.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I myself came to understand many things. But before that happened I lost all trust of man. I lost all trust in reality, in what men say and so forth. I find that if you post a topic or search for an answer from other men, you will get just about every possible answer you can imagine, and each of those people will straight up claim that they know the truth(yes, myself included). How can you trust any of them? You can't. And in my experience when you stop trusting other men, then you will start to hear the father and gain understanding from the father directly(given a true search anyway).



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 12:32 AM
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Spirituality does not have to relate to religion. Religion is an organized, absolute authority. Spirituality is personal.

What I've found, is that many holy books are filled with......nonsense! Logic and spiritual matters tend to be in conflict most of the time. It takes intuition to get a grasp on spirituality.

Nothing is wrong with applying reason, and analytical thinking. I think it childish to label anything the devil.

The spiritual path is filled with all possibilities and all opposites. It's actually experiential to "stray" from your path, in the long run. You'll most likely find out sooner or later, the reason for these doubts.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
Are you basing this off of what people do in the name of God or Jesus, or are you basing this off of what Jesus and the bible actually says?

Both. I cannot possibly truth the bible as its birth history is somewhat obscure and has always been used to gain some power. Although nowadays it isn't used for power that much. I admit that. Things were different then.


Their understanding of the bible and such is completely out of touch, makes little to no logical sense and so forth. Thus the high need for blind faith among them. They are exactly what Jesus calls them - the blind leading the blind. Those who operate off blind faith are truly blind.

I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion catholic church is propably the only branch of christian theology that is not easily dismissed. It is actually very logical theology. I have become to hate blind faith and most people who have it. I cannot stand people who go on for the rest of their life firmly denying all facts, staying ignorant forever.



True spirituality comes from knowledge and understanding(wisdom). Which is how the father rewards people. It's not about ignorance and blind faith at all. Quite the opposite.

Maybe, but from what I have experienced the more I understand the more unhappy I am. Although I have had my moments of insight as do we all. I have noticed that I have lost a certain type of insight during the loss of my spirituality, as it has been a gradual process.

I suppose you are right in many perspectives, but I blame christians themselves for ruining reputation of their own religion.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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It's not the Christians fault. It is the corruptible man than realizes that he can make a buck off of people. He also realizes that not everybody is going to read and seek out God on their own. Yes the blind faithers IMHO do not know what is going on. They do not realize that Father Joe Bob can't tell you your relationship to God.

All Joe Bob can do is lead the way, plant the seed as the saying goes. Then it is up to each and everyone of us to study and seek out for ourselves. No sect of Christianity has it right and never will.

If the established main stream Christianity has failed you than all you can do is seek for yourself.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by rawsom
Both. I cannot possibly truth the bible as its birth history is somewhat obscure and has always been used to gain some power. Although nowadays it isn't used for power that much. I admit that. Things were different then.


I find this odd considering you later talk about the catholic church, which is the one who created the bible in such an obscure way.

At any rate, this is why you can't just accept the bible. Even if you accepted the bible, which way of reading it is correct? It's full of contradictions among different authors.

All I can say is that I learned everything that Jesus says from the father and the holy spirit and the bible, Jesus or religion was never a part of the picture. The path however that Jesus talks about, the understandings he talks about, all this I learned in a way that I could understand. So I accept Jesus not because it's in the bible, but because I can hear and see the father speaking through him, I can see him explaining what I learned.



I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion catholic church is propably the only branch of christian theology that is not easily dismissed. It is actually very logical theology. I have become to hate blind faith and most people who have it. I cannot stand people who go on for the rest of their life firmly denying all facts, staying ignorant forever.


As I said before, I find this odd. The Catholic church is the basis for all christian religions. Exactly what is it about the Catholic church you find so logical? It's all about creating a 1 world religion just like the prophecy says. Everything the bible warns about - the Catholic church does.




Maybe, but from what I have experienced the more I understand the more unhappy I am. Although I have had my moments of insight as do we all. I have noticed that I have lost a certain type of insight during the loss of my spirituality, as it has been a gradual process.


Has it occurred that perhaps spirituality isn't what you had to start with? That perhaps you have never really heard the truth, but instead accepted something as truth and thought you were being spiritual?



I suppose you are right in many perspectives, but I blame christians themselves for ruining reputation of their own religion.


As do I. I do not call myself a Christian really. I actually follow Jesus and keep the commandments. But IMO, you are using Christians as a way of dismissing the father. I think the majority of them are hypocrites(not all obviously). I understand why you think this much, I use to as well. But I have come to realize and understand that all the bad things you can attribute to Christians and what people do in his name are actually things that Jesus warned about and told people not to do.

I do not accept Paul at all for example. Where as Jesus does everything I learned and is an example of what I learned, Paul is an example of what I was told NOT to do. So my entire view and understandings of things is almost completely opposite of the mainstream Christian view.

For example: Christians find their salvation in the death of Jesus. That he followed the sins and died for them so they can just believe in Jesus and be saved. This is a flat out lie and not in line with what Jesus says. These people view the murder of Jesus as a Satanic sacrifice of the truth, so that the lie may live. It even tells you that people conspired against him because he threatened their authority. And those who find salvation in his death are those who find salvation in the lie of this world. I on the other hand find salvation is in his life example, not his death. All he did until his death is an example of how people should act - including not fighting back and becoming the evil.

I'd be happy to explain in more detail if you want. But I see things in a completely different way. Did you know that Paul's writings make up nearly 50% of the "new" testament(new religion). Way more than Jesus, more than all the people who actually lived and walked with Jesus combined. Why is that?

Why is it that when the rich man approaches Jesus, Jesus tells him to sell his riches and walk the path. But then if this same rich man was to come to the church, they would just tell him to accept and believe in Jesus and all is saved? Why didn't Jesus just tell the man to believe in him? As well, how can it be true that they just have to believe in Jesus and all is forgiven when Jesus says if you truly believe then you will walk the path?

Why does one need Paul in order to understand Jesus? etc.

So yes, it is the religions fault. But it's not the fault of the father and Jesus. And if you can't separate the 2, then you aren't going to see the truth in it. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater as they say.

Anyway, if you want you can list the problems and issues you have, and I will rectify them for you.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by rawsom
Both. I cannot possibly truth the bible as its birth history is somewhat obscure and has always been used to gain some power. Although nowadays it isn't used for power that much. I admit that. Things were different then.


I find this odd considering you later talk about the catholic church, which is the one who created the bible in such an obscure way.



I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion catholic church is propably the only branch of christian theology that is not easily dismissed. It is actually very logical theology. I have become to hate blind faith and most people who have it. I cannot stand people who go on for the rest of their life firmly denying all facts, staying ignorant forever.


As I said before, I find this odd. The Catholic church is the basis for all christian religions. Exactly what is it about the Catholic church you find so logical? It's all about creating a 1 world religion just like the prophecy says. Everything the bible warns about - the Catholic church does.

Sorry for long quote. Anyway...

I came to realize that once when I had a chance to debate with a Jesuit for two years, for about once a week. I found that even if bible is in fact gathered from sources that do not accurately represent what Jesus himself taught, catholics have managed to create a philosophical theology that works as a whole and actually develops with the world. There is no way to deny this, even when they do have issues that stay the same forever. Since it is not based solely on teachings of Jesus I do not believe in it in any case. It does mean that I am unable to accept that if bible is true, their theology works.



Has it occurred that perhaps spirituality isn't what you had to start with? That perhaps you have never really heard the truth, but instead accepted something as truth and thought you were being spiritual?

Yes, of course. I don't understand spirituality as knowing certain facts. I understand it as communication between inner self (that most call soul) and God. I'm quite certain that I have had that kind of communication once in my life, but it lead to the premise that none of the christian branches are entirely correct.



But I have come to realize and understand that all the bad things you can attribute to Christians and what people do in his name are actually things that Jesus warned about and told people not to do.

Allright, I'll try to understand. How did Jesus warn about charismatic movements, monetary gain as motive, sense of power, seeing miracles when there are none, plain ignorance, lack of thrive to knowledge and understanding and so on. A single passage from bible will not do it.

The thing is I have read most of Gnostic gospels and find them containing much more information about teachings of Jesus than bible ever has had. Ignoring those gospels in my opinion is just plain ignorance, and most christians must in reality know this in their heart.

Hardest part in educating that is propably because of social pressure from groups they belong to, which states that everything outside of bible is workings of satan himself. Personally for me, gospel of judas has been most revealing of them all. Along with other old sources, it throws betrayal of Judas into completely different perspective.


I do not accept Paul at all for example. Where as Jesus does everything I learned and is an example of what I learned, Paul is an example of what I was told NOT to do. So my entire view and understandings of things is almost completely opposite of the mainstream Christian view.

Hopefuly you explain this to me a bit further, as I can't see how Paul is an example of this.

-------

I don't blame God or Jesus. Problems and issues are likely focused to the fact that I have taken care to read main texts of about fifty different religions and taken "best" parts that include most wisdom as my religion. Therefore my religion has no clear order of things nor does it have any name whatsoever. New Age is something that I have managed to consciously avoid at all costs though.

All this basicaly means that I am a heretic, a hypocrite, workings of devil and everything else that is considered bad in eyes of every single branch of christianity. How, then, could I possibly believe what they teach about Jesus when I myself quickly realize in situations like that is that point of Jesus was to develop your moral to a level in which you are a good person.



Anyway, if you want you can list the problems and issues you have, and I will rectify them for you.


I don't have a list in mind, but some of those came up already and more will propably pop up in my mind during conversations.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 01:55 AM
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So what are you really saying? Jesus didn't reveal himself to you within a certain timeframe, so you gave up on him? Most people who really come into the truth go through some horrific crisis in their lives but when all is said and done and they reflect on everything as a whole, they better understand the light that has come into the world. It's a profound spiritual experience and you realize that if you hadn't had that crisis and went through the process of revelation - you would have never really came to know God.

So once again, here is the verdict: Light has come into the world but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

The light of the world always serves a higher purpose. The things we go through we may not understand but our ways are not God's ways. You're spiritual crisis will end up serving a higher purpose somehow for the better. Even an atheist being an atheist serves a higher purpose just for the fact that it makes people stop, think and debate.

You may have abandoned your ideas of Jesus but he won't abandon you. Even if my words don't offer you any encouragement, they may help someone else who is faltering in their faith - so by you posting this thread it will end up serving a higher purpose.

I really hope you get back what you feel you've lost.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by rawsom
Sorry for long quote. Anyway...

I came to realize that once when I had a chance to debate with a Jesuit for two years, for about once a week. I found that even if bible is in fact gathered from sources that do not accurately represent what Jesus himself taught, catholics have managed to create a philosophical theology that works as a whole and actually develops with the world. There is no way to deny this, even when they do have issues that stay the same forever. Since it is not based solely on teachings of Jesus I do not believe in it in any case. It does mean that I am unable to accept that if bible is true, their theology works.


This could be it's own thread. I can and will deny it a lot. It's just another form of power being setup on earth. And is really nothing more than to say - as long as everyone believed and acted the same way, there would be peace. When it's actually not true, as history has shown it will be just another tyrannical form of government as anyone who doesn't go along is "dealt" with. Jesus taught live and let live, and that is the only way people will get along with separate beliefs and understandings.

The commandments come from the father, and those are what are to be followed. And the example on how to follow them correctly is the life of Jesus.

Even Jesus says you don't have to believe the father is in him and so forth. He says the least one can do is just to believe for the very works sake.



10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


What Jesus says is what works.



Yes, of course. I don't understand spirituality as knowing certain facts. I understand it as communication between inner self (that most call soul) and God. I'm quite certain that I have had that kind of communication once in my life, but it lead to the premise that none of the christian branches are entirely correct.


I agree with you here. None of them are correct. The very way they organize in the first place is out of order. It's about a personal relationship with the father, and yet none of these religions actually allow it. I am denied a personal relationship with Christians and atheists alike. As if a personal relationship with the father means you will be able to quote the bible word for word and such. In my experience, the father and holy spirit has no need for such things, and people say - oh you are full of it, but obviously in order for the words of the bible to be written down to begin with such must be the case. The bible has merely become a replacement for the word of god and holy spirit. To be accepted rather than understood. But Jesus says this as well in Matthew 7. All of Matthew 7 applies to christians, and is what christians in general can expect to hear from him.



28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


Scribes are the scriptures. Those who write the word down. They are not the authority, you are your own authority. You are capable of your own understanding, your own path, your own personal relationship. You don't need the bible or preachers to show you these things.

You know how Christians claim only Christians are saved and such? Not true, and Jesus even says so:



24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


What you see from the church is IMO the same thing we see in Marketing. "Free gift", "new and improved", "The only one with active ingredients blah blah blah".




Allright, I'll try to understand. How did Jesus warn about charismatic movements, monetary gain as motive, sense of power, seeing miracles when there are none, plain ignorance, lack of thrive to knowledge and understanding and so on. A single passage from bible will not do it.


The blind leading the blind. Jesus says there is only 1 teacher and 1 master, and that is the father. Where such movements go wrong is they inevitably become more about the movement and keeping the movement going than the actual message. The movement has to eventually push themselves off as being an authority. The same as the church. But you are not the authority, neither am I. In doing so, these things replace the father and a personal relationship. You can find these answers when he talks to his disciples and instructs them. This world surely doesn't need another group thinking movement. It needs individuals who are prepared and willing to take the risk of speaking the truth to other individuals as a way of understanding.

For example. I could take what I know and write a book about it. Maybe some people will accept what I say is truth. But it would be for nothing. Because as Einstein once said - Any fool can know, the point is to understand. All I would be doing is telling people what to know, rather than giving them actual understanding. By debating on a personal and 1vs1 level, then we can get understanding. And this is why Jesus says when 2 people are discussing him, he will be among them(not to be confused with a preacher/rabbit telling you what to know). Because out of discussion comes understanding. If I publish a book about the things I know, then I am just establishing myself as being an authority. Truth is, I am not an authority. I can not myself teach someone. I can tell them what to know, but they will still be ignorant just like all those people in the church and in such a movement. It's as if - Hey, if you don't go along with the authority, then obviously you are the one who is wrong, not the "authority". I do not agree. I would just be another scribe.

And then of course comes image. Gotta worry about the image, gotta please people and so forth. And so you start compromising. For what king(leader of a movement) doesn't weigh the odds of winning the battle before starting, and if he see's it's a lost cause he starts to compromise and use diplomacy. And what of the man who starts on a house, but doesn't finish the job? All these answers can be found in how Jesus instructs the disciples. He sends them off as individuals.

I think a quote from Buddha is appropriate here.



Buddha said -- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.


I find the path of Jesus to be this, and something I should accept and live up to.



The thing is I have read most of Gnostic gospels and find them containing much more information about teachings of Jesus than bible ever has had. Ignoring those gospels in my opinion is just plain ignorance, and most christians must in reality know this in their heart.


This is what I find odd about you. Gnostics were killed by the catholic church, called heretics and so forth(prophecy fulfilled IMO). I myself am not familiar with the gnostic texts, outside the 4(5 if you count revelation) included in the bible. But I do understand how they work, and agree with them in general. The method of gnostic texts brings understanding, rather than being an authority for people to accept.

I've run out of room, I will have to continue my reply.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by rawsom


I do not accept Paul at all for example. Where as Jesus does everything I learned and is an example of what I learned, Paul is an example of what I was told NOT to do. So my entire view and understandings of things is almost completely opposite of the mainstream Christian view.

Hopefuly you explain this to me a bit further, as I can't see how Paul is an example of this.


Well, I can point out obvious contradictions of what Paul says from Jesus, but since you are looking for understanding, then I think it is appropriate to explain what wolves in sheep's clothing are.

What does a politician do? A politician will stand up and praise everything that is associated with the people he is wanting to "lead", gain power over. I'm from US, so I am going to use it as an example. A politician will say "Praise America" and they will keep on their symbolism(got your flag pin on?). But when it comes to actually following what those symbols and things actually stand for, they do not actually follow it. They praise the constitution, but they do not actually follow it. Instead they lead people against it. This is a wolf in sheep's clothing. They wear your clothes and symbolism. They praise them and do everything to give you the illusion they are about that. But in their actions, they do not do this. It is easy to see in politicians today.

I first recognized it years ago in politics. And I also see it in the bible today. The way I see Paul is the same way I see a politician. Paul praises Jesus, builds up the importance in Jesus(builds up a false idol), and blinds people to the symbolism. Then he hands the symbolism over to the powers on earth and the catholic church is created. The people then just see people who are littered in the symbolism to appear to be about it, praising Jesus and so forth. But then in their actions they do the opposite. They lead crusades, they lead people down the path of death and destruction, not the path and commandments Jesus spoke of. This is why it is the synagogue of Satan. And just like politics, people hold on to the symbolism and view anyone as not having that symbolism as their enemy, again contrary tot he teachings.

It is how manipulation works. It is present in everything on earth. Politics, Religion, Marketing(name brands) and so on. It is by design. And of course people start to notice the hypocrisy. And that is also fine as well. The atheists and other religions just play the other side of the coin. That is fine and dandy, these people now keep the illusion going, as the people with the symbolism now have an enemy. And so this supports the need to walk that path of death and destruction. Other religions or whatever. This is to be stuck in hypocrisy. As Jesus says, if you take a step out and look at things from the other side, then you can see your own errors. And these people do not do this.

Everything I am explaining can be found in Matthew 7. The hypocrisy, the manipulation of those who do many great things in his name, but do so in sin(the path of death and destruction), and tells who the real authority is - the individual.

www.biblegateway.com...

I'll be happy to go into more detail if you want. As you can see I don't need the bible verses, but I do include them because it does say and teach these things(and more). But it is to be understood, not just known. When you actually understand Jesus, then you can see how Paul does these things. If you want actual contradictions between Paul and Jesus then I can do that for you, I have in other threads. Paul creates outside authorities and Jesus is completely against these things.



I don't blame God or Jesus. Problems and issues are likely focused to the fact that I have taken care to read main texts of about fifty different religions and taken "best" parts that include most wisdom as my religion. Therefore my religion has no clear order of things nor does it have any name whatsoever. New Age is something that I have managed to consciously avoid at all costs though.


The father rewards with wisdom and understanding. So if you are truly seeking, then perhaps you are just missing some small little thing that would make it all clear. I had my entire perspective and understanding changed overnight, based on 1 small little change in understanding. John 14:20. After that, then things started to make sense. I could see things I never seen before, and what I see physically has not changed at all. It's with the minds eye that I see these things with, in understanding.



All this basicaly means that I am a heretic, a hypocrite, workings of devil and everything else that is considered bad in eyes of every single branch of christianity. How, then, could I possibly believe what they teach about Jesus when I myself quickly realize in situations like that is that point of Jesus was to develop your moral to a level in which you are a good person.


Jesus says you have to seek. Yet these people do not seek, they accept. They accept what is feed to them and it will continue to be feed to them as long as they will eat it. You have to learn how to feed yourself. Why do you need their approval? Does Jesus not say those who truly believe will be persecuted and hated? Why do you expect anything else? In a world of lies, the truth is hated and scarce. But just as my signature says, even as scarce as it is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand because very few look for the truth.

It reminds me of a scene from the movie Office Space. Where the guy is talking about his name being Michael Bolton and stuff. And he says why should I change my name, he's the one who sucks. Why should I let what someone else does affect or determine what I say/do? I had to make a choice when I first started talking about the bible. Who am I going to let define it for me, the father and what I know, or what a bunch of people who just accept what they are told and don't understand say.

Perhaps you are on the verge of gaining the piece you are missing. It's funny, but sometimes at work I'll be working on a program, and I'll get stuck. And the very moment I go and ask for help, or start to say something about it - bam it hits me. Suddenly out of no where I know exactly what the problem is, and how to fix it real quick. Just when I had stared to give up on it, it came. There's a reason why the car keys are always in the last place you look.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 10:21 AM
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To the OP. Reason and logic don't always have the answers.

Don't lose faith in spirituality. You are a spirit and are called to go to great hieghts in the spiritual life.



I first recognized it years ago in politics. And I also see it in the bible today. The way I see Paul is the same way I see a politician. Paul praises Jesus, builds up the importance in Jesus(builds up a false idol), and blinds people to the symbolism. Then he hands the symbolism over to the powers on earth and the catholic church is created. The people then just see people who are littered in the symbolism to appear to be about it, praising Jesus and so forth. But then in their actions they do the opposite. They lead crusades, they lead people down the path of death and destruction, not the path and commandments Jesus spoke of. This is why it is the synagogue of Satan. And just like politics, people hold on to the symbolism and view anyone as not having that symbolism as their enemy, again contrary tot he teachings.

(badmedia)


Paul was a prophet, that's why he's in the bible. For you to deny him is to deny christ, that's first. Secondly what symbolism?

Son, in the Old testament symbolism was everywhere. God commanded statues to be placed in the old temple, he commanded mose to make a statue of a serpent for healings.

you are not only lying to this soul, but the same bible you use you use to your own destruction, you have to read the whole thing.


The church was created because it was prophecied in the OT and the NT to spread throught the world which put the bible together. You say they do lip service and not follow Christ in their actions. You just judged all the saints who gave their lives for God in actions of goodness. The crusades were from defense. Just like in the OT where the prophets had to slay entire villiages.

and the synygog of satan is the old law, if you read the context and what he is saying you will udnerstand what that actually means. It's not the church.



peace.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Paul was a prophet, that's why he's in the bible. For you to deny him is to deny christ, that's first. Secondly what symbolism?


No he wasn't. He did everything Jesus wouldn't do. He appealed to the authorities and powers of the earth like a politician and completely distorted the meaning of what Jesus did. To say I need Paul in order to understand Jesus is to say Jesus was incomplete in his message.



Son, in the Old testament symbolism was everywhere. God commanded statues to be placed in the old temple, he commanded mose to make a statue of a serpent for healings.


Symbols have meaning behind them. The real meaning and understanding behind things is kept hidden, while the leaders use that symbolism to lead the blind on paths that go against the understandings.



you are not only lying to this soul, but the same bible you use you use to your own destruction, you have to read the whole thing.


I don't have to do anything. I'm not fool enough to just accept the bible. That I would actually need the bible is to say god is limited to only a book on earth, that personal relationships are not possible and that only the bible teachers.

Everything Jesus says you deny in others. You enter not, and so you deny others entrance as well. You say I need the scribes, and that the scribes(bible) is the authority. I know better.



Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


I guess Jesus was lying? And yet, Paul says we must submit to the authorities of this earth and governments. The truth is, without Paul and his manipulation the entire thing falls apart, because in Jesus you do not find such things. Go ahead, back up what you say in the words in Jesus rather than Paul or someone else. Go ahead and give me the words of all these other so called prophets while calling all others false prophets.



Luke 6

26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.




The church was created because it was prophecied in the OT and the NT to spread throught the world which put the bible together. You say they do lip service and not follow Christ in their actions. You just judged all the saints who gave their lives for God in actions of goodness. The crusades were from defense. Just like in the OT where the prophets had to slay entire villiages.


Church is completely spiritual, based on knowledge and wisdom is based here on earth it the individual soul, as well as being present in heaven(as heaven is within). When 2 or more people discuss(not preach) Jesus, he will be among them and they will be building their true churches within. This church is built out of things more valuable than anything you can find in the physical earth. To take this idea and claim it's a physical church or organization on earth is yet another physical deception.

Jesus tells Peter he is building it on a rock. Jesus makes mentions of rocks in other times, and he calls basing things wisdom to be using a foundation for a rock. The same as the OT talks about wisdom and understanding. Things are kept hidden from men by changing what the symbols represent. Back in those times, a physical church was called a synagogue. A rose by any other name still smells the same.



Matthew 7

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.





and the synygog of satan is the old law, if you read the context and what he is saying you will udnerstand what that actually means. It's not the church.


Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Of course, back then if you followed Jesus you were a Jew. Has nothing to do with old law. It is talking about people who claim to be something they are not. It says that specifically 2 different times. And it also talks about knowing thy works. Meaning, it isn't talking about who gave him the most lip service, it is looking at the actual fruits/actions involved.

So it is talking about those who say they are Jews(Christians) but are not. Those who in their works/actions mislead people down an incorrect path and keep them ignorant of true wisdom and understanding. That is deception, that is the synagogue of Satan. It says it plain as day.

The only context surrounding those is talking about the people who keep his commandments and do as he says. When Jesus calls people of Satan, it's always hypocrites and those who blind people from the truth. In the above post, I laid out exactly the process in which it is done, no matter if you accept it or not.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by rawsom
 


Did you spend 10 years searching for proof of your faith? I would recommend spending the next tilling the ground, planting the seed, bringing it water and protecting it form being eaten by others...then it will grow to fill the field....and you will begin to live on it's fruit because it will flourish and multiply.

Blessings...



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 02:32 PM
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No he wasn't. He did everything Jesus wouldn't do. He appealed to the authorities and powers of the earth like a politician and completely distorted the meaning of what Jesus did. To say I need Paul in order to understand Jesus is to say Jesus was incomplete in his message


(badmedia)


No you're wrong as usual. Paul was a prophet and didn't distort anything, infact he just fullfilled what christ was saying. You talk about the church not adding other books, yet you reject several books in the NT itself.





Symbols have meaning behind them. The real meaning and understanding behind things is kept hidden, while the leaders use that symbolism to lead the blind on paths that go against the understandings


(badmedia)


see how you beat around the bush and go on a tirade? This has nothing to do with what i just said. I said the symbols were used in the OT, not to lead the blind but for God just like the NT. You're understanding is already dark, you make no sense and use circular srguments to destroy more readers.





I don't have to do anything. I'm not fool enough to just accept the bible. That I would actually need the bible is to say god is limited to only a book on earth, that personal relationships are not possible and that only the bible teachers.

Everything Jesus says you deny in others. You enter not, and so you deny others entrance as well. You say I need the scribes, and that the scribes(bible) is the authority. I know better


(badmedia)


Let me get this strait. You're not full enough to just accept the bible, but you use it at every turn and say that I go by what scripture says? And I agree with God outside the bible, that's what out church is, it's also a relationship with christ in communion. And I don't believe the bible is the only authority because it can be interpreted wrong, that's why I believe Gods church is, furthermore you know better?

also I wasn't talking about you accepting the bible alone, I was saying that you need to know it before using it's passages. once again you twist what people say.

it's like you're a robot that is in argue mode and has to twist anything nomatter what.




guess Jesus was lying? And yet, Paul says we must submit to the authorities of this earth and governments. The truth is, without Paul and his manipulation the entire thing falls apart, because in Jesus you do not find such things. Go ahead, back up what you say in the words in Jesus rather than Paul or someone else. Go ahead and give me the words of all these other so called prophets while calling all others false prophets


(badmedia)

what are you talking about? What Jesus meant was that he was speaking as God. God loves obedience to superiors, this is founded in the Ot and the baises on obeying people like parents.

do you take everything out of context.


it's like I could say.

These potatoe chips are nasty

and you respond like.


" well the bible says all things are good to me so I go by what christ says. "


you are always in argue mode. You have much and I mean much humility to learn. So do I.






Church is completely spiritual, based on knowledge and wisdom is based here on earth it the individual soul, as well as being present in heaven(as heaven is within). When 2 or more people discuss(not preach) Jesus, he will be among them and they will be building their true churches within. This church is built out of things more valuable than anything you can find in the physical earth. To take this idea and claim it's a physical church or organization on earth is yet another physical deception.

Jesus tells Peter he is building it on a rock. Jesus makes mentions of rocks in other times, and he calls basing things wisdom to be using a foundation for a rock. The same as the OT talks about wisdom and understanding. Things are kept hidden from men by changing what the symbols represent. Back in those times, a physical church was called a synagogue. A rose by any other name still smells the same


(badmedia)


No that's not true. Yes it is wisdom and from within. That's what our church is. its the people, not the building. Now he does talk about a literal building, and communion of the bread, and coming together to meet and preach, and also he gave the apostles the ability to lose and bind things on earth.

and he also gave certain individuals the ability to retain and forgive sins in John 20.

So we are the same thing you described, the differnce is that we go to a building to recieve the sacraments. The building itslef is not the church, it's the indiviual soul that has Christ in them. So i agree but disagree that buildings have no meaning.


And when he said the rock of peter. that's the pope. Why not say that to every apostle? He didn't because he has a head of his church. again wait shortly and you will see this church be rebuilt by God himself.




Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Of course, back then if you followed Jesus you were a Jew. Has nothing to do with old law. It is talking about people who claim to be something they are not. It says that specifically 2 different times. And it also talks about knowing thy works. Meaning, it isn't talking about who gave him the most lip service, it is looking at the actual fruits/actions involved.

So it is talking about those who say they are Jews(Christians) but are not. Those who in their works/actions mislead people down an incorrect path and keep them ignorant of true wisdom and understanding. That is deception, that is the synagogue of Satan. It says it plain as day.

The only context surrounding those is talking about the people who keep his commandments and do as he says. When Jesus calls people of Satan, it's always hypocrites and those who blind people from the truth. In the above post, I laid out exactly the process in which it is done, no matter if you accept it or not.


(badmedia)


No no. you are dead wrong. First of all the gentiles are the christians, most the gentiles were the first christians of the church. My name is great among the gentiles in malachias.

how can you bind christaisn and jews together? It's insane. You use such a wise tone to further lead people astray.

The synygog of satan would be the jews who deny Christ.

fruthermore that quote you are talking about from revelations talks about the angle of the church and talks about the (churches) that were obedient to his words. So if all churches are false to you how can God say they are his?


you completely took the text out of context.


Apo 3:8


" Because thou hast little strength, and (has kept my word), and has NOT DENIED my name "


talking about the angle of the church of phil. What he 's saying is that those jews will come against his church and he will without the faithful from temptation.


So like I said, read the context before doing this dear man.


peace.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 03:29 PM
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Jesus ministry while on this earth was directed at the Jews.

M't:15:22: And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
M't:15:23: But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
M't:15:24: But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
M't:15:25: Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
M't:15:26: But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
M't:15:27: And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
M't:15:28: Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.


After Jesus' death and resurrection, Peter has a vision about the Gentiles:

Ac:10:9: On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
Ac:10:10: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Ac:10:11: And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Ac:10:12: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Ac:10:13: And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Ac:10:14: But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Ac:10:15: And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Ac:10:16: This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
Ac:10:17: Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
Ac:10:18: And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
Ac:10:19: While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Ac:10:20: Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
Ac:10:21: Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
Ac:10:22: And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Ac:10:23: Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
Ac:10:24: And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
Ac:10:25: And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Ac:10:26: But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
Ac:10:27: And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
Ac:10:28: And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


Paul was then converted on the road to Damascus. Keep in mind Paul was a devout Jew and persecutor of the Christians.

continued....



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 03:33 PM
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continued from last post...

Ac:9:1: And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Ac:9:2: And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Ac:9:3: And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Ac:9:4: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Ac:9:5: And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Ac:9:6: And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Ac:9:7: And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Ac:9:8: And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
Ac:9:9: And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Ac:9:10: And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
Ac:9:11: And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Ac:9:12: And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Ac:9:13: Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Ac:9:14: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Ac:9:15: But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Ac:9:16: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


This is why Jesus and Paul's messages differ slightly.

Jews were under the law, but Christ freed everyone from the law. Does this mean we shouldn't follow the law? Of course not, and Paul says so:

Ro:3:19: Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Ro:6:14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Ro:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
1Co:9:20: And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co:9:21: To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
Ga:3:23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Ga:4:4: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Ga:4:5: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Ga:4:21: Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Hope this helps...

God Bless



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
No you're wrong as usual. Paul was a prophet and didn't distort anything, infact he just fullfilled what christ was saying. You talk about the church not adding other books, yet you reject several books in the NT itself.


No, he does what a Politician does. He praises Jesus, but then says things otherwise. I'll give you an example of how this works.

I believe that it is in the life of Jesus that one finds salvation, and that his death was just to show that no matter what, you do not break a commandments(thus why he didn't fight back). You on the other hand believe his blood washes away your sins, and by believing in him you are forgiven.

So, if someone comes along and says something like "And in Jesus we are saved" - to both of us that is something we can agree on. But in truth, we actually have very different opinions. This is what politicians do all the time. They will say something like - "and I'm going to improve healthcare". And everyone is like "yeah, I'd like to improve healthcare too, great idea!". But in reality, how and what that actually means among all those people is completely different. This is double talk. This is sorcery.

Combined with symbolisms(cross, flag, bible, etc), everyone just believes the person is good and will give it an honest shot. But when does anyone ever sell themselves as the bad guy? I don't remember anyone running on a "I want to enslave everyone" platform. This is what I see Paul doing.

Why is it you never really give anything to back up what you say? You just keep saying I'm wrong, they are right and then attack me personally with something completely unrelated? I wouldn't take Paul out of the bible, I think it's a great example of deception and what not to do. And I don't care what books the put in or left out of the bible, so much as they even dictated what should be in their for other people, but since they did dictate it, I think their choices are telling.







Symbols have meaning behind them. The real meaning and understanding behind things is kept hidden, while the leaders use that symbolism to lead the blind on paths that go against the understandings

see how you beat around the bush and go on a tirade? This has nothing to do with what i just said. I said the symbols were used in the OT, not to lead the blind but for God just like the NT. You're understanding is already dark, you make no sense and use circular srguments to destroy more readers.


I said they have meanings behind them, and those meanings are kept secret from people as much as possible. Not sure what the tirade was. And do you know what a circular argument is? Because you are the one that is doing it.




Let me get this strait. You're not full enough to just accept the bible, but you use it at every turn and say that I go by what scripture says? And I agree with God outside the bible, that's what out church is, it's also a relationship with christ in communion. And I don't believe the bible is the only authority because it can be interpreted wrong, that's why I believe Gods church is, furthermore you know better?


I think you misunderstand. I don't care what the scripture says. I didn't learn from the bible and don't need the bible for understanding. But when I read Jesus and what he shows and the understanding he gives, I see exactly what I learned. I see the father in him. If you notice, I really only quote Jesus and the OT in regards to the importance and value of wisdom and understanding. Jesus says it himself, the people are the authority, not the scribes. And yet you scold me for being my own authority and not listening to the scribes.



also I wasn't talking about you accepting the bible alone, I was saying that you need to know it before using it's passages. once again you twist what people say.


Quite the opposite. Until you know the father and have the holy spirit, you are the one who twists it. You've got it backwards. You don't find the father and the holy spirit from understanding the bible, you will first understand the father and the holy spirit and then you will see it repeated in the bible. This is even told in the bible in John 14. Which was the chapter that got me to open up to the bible in the first place, as I was astonished it described word for word what happened to me.



it's like you're a robot that is in argue mode and has to twist anything nomatter what.


Confrontation, debate and discussion brings about understanding. I do not look for people to comfort me. I do not look for people who agree with me. I search for those who disagree with me. Because from that comes better understanding. Maybe you will say something I truly hadn't considered, never know. Not going to come from someone who agrees with you.

guess Jesus was lying? And yet, Paul says we must submit to the authorities of this earth and governments. The truth is, without Paul and his manipulation the entire thing falls apart, because in Jesus you do not find such things. Go ahead, back up what you say in the words in Jesus rather than Paul or someone else. Go ahead and give me the words of all these other so called prophets while calling all others false prophets



what are you talking about? What Jesus meant was that he was speaking as God. God loves obedience to superiors, this is founded in the Ot and the baises on obeying people like parents.


See, this is some of that double talk. Who is my superior? Sure, obedience to my superior, but do we agree on who my superior is? You might name popes, parents and all these other men, but I do not, and neither did Jesus. There is but 1 master, and that is the father. The father is the only authority, and it is the only authority I worry about being loyal and obedient too.



Matthew 23

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.






do you take everything out of context.


If I had, you probably could have given an actual example. You are out of context with Jesus.



you are always in argue mode. You have much and I mean much humility to learn. So do I.


Did Jesus and others also need to learn humility? You assume I am not humble because you assume I am wrong. If I am right, then would I still be considered to not be humble? What if I really am being humble?



No that's not true. Yes it is wisdom and from within. That's what our church is. its the people, not the building. Now he does talk about a literal building, and communion of the bread, and coming together to meet and preach, and also he gave the apostles the ability to lose and bind things on earth.


You are talking about an organization that creates leaders and teachers and does all the things I quoted Jesus saying not to do. It's a 1 guy dictating and telling other people what to believe. Any fool can know, the point is to understand.



and he also gave certain individuals the ability to retain and forgive sins in John 20.


I'm guessing you are referring to these.



21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


To sin is to make a mistake. To repent is to fix that mistake. When you fix your mistake, you are automatically forgiven, because that is all the father wanted from you in the first place. You reap what you sow, and so when you fix the mistake then you no longer sow it, and you no longer reap it. So when you show someone the truth(notice the holy spirit is involved to teach the truth to them) then you are showing them how to fix their sins, repent and fix it, and then they are forgiven. It's not like you just say "You are forgiven" and that is it. The person will then just go do the same things again, and sow and reap it anyway. Does Jesus just tell the rich man he is forgiven? No, instead he tells the rich man how to correct his mistake and to walk the path - when you walk the path then you do not sow bad things, so you do not reap them.



So we are the same thing you described, the differnce is that we go to a building to recieve the sacraments. The building itslef is not the church, it's the indiviual soul that has Christ in them. So i agree but disagree that buildings have no meaning.


More than a building, it's an organization.



And when he said the rock of peter. that's the pope. Why not say that to every apostle? He didn't because he has a head of his church. again wait shortly and you will see this church be rebuilt by God himself.


Not a chance. Peter was never pope. Just because the church claims it, it doesn't mean it's true. Jesus talks about more rocks than that, and it's done in regards to "building" things on top of them, but they are done in a way that is towards wisdom and understanding, not a physical building - which can be blown away by the winds. Wisdom and understanding no man can take from you.

Ran out of room, cont.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
how can you bind christaisn and jews together? It's insane. You use such a wise tone to further lead people astray.


Because that is what you were called at the time the bible was written. Why would you suggest I should look at it in terms other than that? Is it not true that at the time that was written, if you followed Jesus you were still considered and called a Jew? Was Jesus himself not a Jew? You are focusing on the names/symbols rather than what they actually are. Have you ever heard the expression - the name doesn't make the man, his actions do?



The synygog of satan would be the jews who deny Christ.


The verse directly says what it is. It is those who call themselves Jews but actually aren't. Those that lie. It says it directly, I'm not sure why there is debate, and it should be easily understandable why that would include Christians to. Or are you to say that Christians are incapable of such things? I doubt you would say that.



fruthermore that quote you are talking about from revelations talks about the angle of the church and talks about the (churches) that were obedient to his words. So if all churches are false to you how can God say they are his?


It's a matter of what you consider to be a church. What you call a church, I think is really a synagogue. What I consider to be a church is based on wisdom and knowledge. If you want to consider those letters as being sent to physical churches, then how could these scriptures still apply to anything today?

Next verse says otherwise obviously, that it was not for the time or physical churches.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



you completely took the text out of context.

Apo 3:8

" Because thou hast little strength, and (has kept my word), and has NOT DENIED my name "

talking about the angle of the church of phil. What he 's saying is that those jews will come against his church and he will without the faithful from temptation.


Did you forget the part where it says - they say they are, but do lie and really aren't? So it actually has nothing to do with Jews as a religion separate of Christianity, because Christianity is the new religion created hundreds of years after.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by rawsom
 





Originally posted by rawsom
The thing is, some believers are so crazy in their beliefs that I have begun to hate entire parts of population because they just cnanot realize that they could be wrong as well. I know that religion is important, I have nothing against itself in particular. It is the people I am against, religion does not matter to me.


I understand what you are saying but I’m not sure if using hate is the right word…obviously I don’t know you very well but I have been in a situation where someone didn’t understand or had no understanding of something I was trying to explain to them and I thought I hated the person but on reflection, I realized that I was just frustrated, that they could not understand something the way I could see it. I just think there’s nothing wrong with being frustrated but I think hating them, sounds like a very strong word too use.





However I still believe in God or some supreme being, just not a christian god. Maybe it is knowledge that messed up my head, some would say devil, but i would say it is reason and logic.


I myself have had problems with certain passages of the bible but I still believe in Jesus and God…from what you are saying, I believe you still have some form of spirituality, because like you say you “still believe in God or some supreme being” so from my understanding you still have some degree of spirituality, even though it may have gone through some changes.




Jesusistruth




Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Paul was a prophet, that's why he's in the bible. For you to deny him is to deny christ, that's first.


I understand that Paul was a prophet, but what do you mean by “for you to deny him, is to deny Christ”? I don’t want to jump to any conclusions or assumption’s here, so could you please explain, what you meant by that.

Thanks…




- JC



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 09:00 PM
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reply to post by rawsom
 


I won't get caught up in the religious discussion going on comparing scripture and prophets. It rarely leads anywhere. But....



However I still believe in God or some supreme being, just not a christian god. Maybe it is knowledge that messed up my head, some would say devil, but i would say it is reason and logic.


Nothing wrong with that! Is not God - reason and logic? Who would be threatened by it? Religion and its members because it questions their beliefs which must be protected at all times. If the actual truth gets out, what happens?


Why it has to be so that religious people are very often immune to reason and logic? What's so wrong in learning how to cathegorically cut our false information, leaving only truth left? What's wrong in debating that bible is true, while its birth story certainly tell that it isn't entirely so?


Do you not know the answer to this?

What happens when a person's boat gets rocked? How defensive do they become? Supposing this runs in a family who all are supposed to believe alike? It creates tremendous free floating anxiety to let go of the bottle.

How much humility does it take to admit ones beliefs could be wrong? Religion is a machine that is well oiled. To change the system would confuse the machine and would threaten it.



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