Radical Islam

The devil and disbelievers will be in the Fire. 59:16-17

The owners of the Garden and the owners of the Fire are not equal. 59:20

Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy. 60:1

Don't be friends with those who have warred against you because of religion. Whoever makes friends with them is a wrong-doer. 60:9

Don't be friends with those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. They are Allah's enemies. 60:13

The worst thing you can do is tell a lie about Allah. 61:7

Allah gave Muhammad the one true religion and sent him to conquer all other (false) religions. 61:9

"O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful doom?" 61:10

A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly. 62:5

Allah seals the hearts of those who believe and then disbelieve so that they can understand nothing. 63:3

Disbelievers are perverted. They are the enemy, confounded by Allah. 63:4

Don't bother to ask Allah to forgive the disbelievers. He will never forgive them. 63:6

"Might belongeth to Allah and to His messenger and to the believers." 63:8

Those who disbelieve will have a painful doom. 64:5

Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 64:10

Be stern with disbelievers. They are going to Hell anyway. 66:9

Disbelievers will go to hell where they will hear its roaring and boiling. 67:6-7

Who will protect the disbelievers from a painful doom? (Nobody) 67:28

Refuse to obey the "rejecters" (Non-Muslims?) who seek compromise 68:8-9

Those who consider the Quran to be "mere fables" will be branded on the nose.68:15-16

"Shall We then treat those who have surrendered (Muslims) as We treat the guilty (Non-Muslims)?" 68:35

Those who do not believe in Allah will be chained up and cast into hell-fire where they will eat filth. 69:30-35

Doom is about to fall on all disbelievers. Only worshippers (Muslims) and those who preserve their chastity (except with their wives and slave girls) will be spared from "the fires of hell" that are "eagar to roast." 70:1-30

"Lo! the doom of their Lord is that before which none can feel secure" (except for maybe those who are fearful of it). 70:27-28

Disbelievers will enter hell with frantic with fear, knowing they will be tortured forever by Allah. 70:36, 44

Allah sent Noah to warn people about the painful doom he was planning to send. (It didn't work out well; Allah sent it anyway.) 71:1

Noah asked Allah to drown all the disbelievers. 71:26

The fires of hell will be fueled with the bodies of idolators and unbelievers. They will experience an ever-greater torment. 72:15-17

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will dwell forever in the fire of hell. 72:23

Allah will take care of the deniers. He will tie them up, burn them in a raging fire, and feed them food that chokes them. 73:11-13

The last day will be a day of anguish for disbelievers. 74:9-10

Those who are stubborn to Allah's revelations will face a fearful doom. 74:16-17

Allah has appointed angels to tend the Fire and has prepared stumbling blocks for those who disbelieve. He sends some people (whoever he wants) astray. 74:31

Those who pay attention to this life and ignore the Hereafter will suffer forever in hell. 75:20-29

Allah has prepared chains, manacles, and a raging fire for the disbelievers. 76:4

Don't obey disbelievers. 76:24

Woe unto the repudiators on that day! 77:19, 77:24, 77:28, 77:34, 77:40, 77:45, 77:49

Depart unto that doom which ye used to deny." 77:29

Those who deny the revelations given to Muhammed will burn forever in hell. 78:21-30

"Lo! We warn you of a doom at hand, a day whereon a man will look on that which his own hands have sent before, and the disbeliever will cry: 'Would that I were dust!'" 78:40

Those who rebel by choosing this life over the next will go to hell. 79:37-39

Disbelievers are wicked people. On the last day they will be in darkness and have dust on their faces. 80:40-42

Those who reject Allah's revelations will burn in hell. 83:10-17

The disbelievers used to laugh at the believers. But the final laugh will be on them. 83:29-36

Disbelievers will be given a painful doom. 84:22-24

Those who persecute Muslims, without repenting, will burn in hell. 85:10

Allah plots against non-Muslims. 86:16

"Deal gently with them (non-Muslims) for a while. (How long is "a while"?) 86:17

Allah will punish disbelievers with the direst punishment. 88:23-24

Allah poured the disaster of His punishment upon those who rebelled against him. 89:11-13

Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have the Fire placed over them like an awning. 90:19-20

Those who deny Allah's revelations must endure the flaming fire. 92:14-16

Allah created humans to be "of best stature" but then reduced them "to the lowest of the low". Except for "those who believe and do good works." But what about those who don't believe but do good works? Are they the "lowest of the low"? 95:4-6

Allah will grab those who deny His guidance by the forelock and call the guards of hell. 96:13-18

Those who disbelieve will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. 98:6

skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Couldn't some of these quotes and instructions 'act as a catalyst'
and reinforce the prejudices and delusions fostered by people who are just sociopathicaly intolerant and inherently bigoted anyway?


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Because you have waterlogged my reply which I thought was important too I have repeated what i said before so people can read it along with your self.

I think this Bible verse sums it up even before Islam was called Islam in Arabia. It shows the two different paths and promises of God concerning Abrahams two sons. One son by Hagar who's seed is not free compared to the son from Sarah who's seed is free and like wise Islam is not free by it's own laws and the people are slaves to it while the Christian world is free from old testemant laws that include stoning of women and even that was just a Jewish custom in the presence of the God the Father when the Isrealites were in the dessert. It's in the Blood of the Arabs/Muslims to be as they are as a society and its in the Blood of the free world to remain free from the tight regulations that the old testiment imposed because Christ was sacrificed. That is one way to interpret this verse I feel and almost figuratively prophetic in nature but it does not mean to the Christians God went to the Arabs too in 600AD and decided to make another law, I am just saying they are bonded to this Arabic way of life from not being a promised seed, but obviously the Qur'an says its the other way round.

Likewise I think Muslims are slaves to their religion and customs and way of life where the rest of the world is free in comparison. Yes we have some restrictions but in no way on the same scale. Also the last verse is almost saying how a future Qur'an verses speaks about infidels and saying infedels will never inherit Islamic heaven. What is the irony here is that it almost sounds like its saying we are not like that in spiritual nature in getting rid of the unbeliever its very anti-radical Islam which has more to do with dug up Old Testement rules which Jesus Christ made a new covenant for if not fullfilled the salvation of mankind's test.

Galatians 4

Hagar and Sarah

21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Text

[edit on 2-3-2009 by The time lord]

Originally posted by poet1b
Something I have been meaning to say. It is good to see moderate Muslims speaking out against the radicals calling for violence. We need to see more of this,

"All that is required for evil to flourish in the world is for good men to do nothing. "

I live in Michigan and I believe we have the largest muslim population in the US and there are only a few issues and honestly the issues seem to be centered around violence against muslims.

I have no problem with anyone of any faith, creed or color as long as they don't have a problem with me first. A live and let live policy around the world would make things so much easier for everyone.

Originally posted by jfj123
I have no problem with anyone of any faith, creed or color as long as they don't have a problem with me first. A live and let live policy around the world would make things so much easier for everyone.

Yes the golden rule of 'treating other people as you yourself would lke to be treated' is a very important one.
Its just that many religious extremists have utter contempt for it.

Originally posted by karl 12

The devil and disbelievers will be in the Fire. 59:16-17

The owners of the Garden and the owners of the Fire are not equal. 59:20

Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy. 60:1

Don't be friends with those who have warred against you because of religion. Whoever makes friends with them is a wrong-doer. 60:9

Don't be friends with those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. They are Allah's enemies. 60:13

The worst thing you can do is tell a lie about Allah. 61:7

Allah gave Muhammad the one true religion and sent him to conquer all other (false) religions. 61:9

"O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful doom?" 61:10

A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly. 62:5

Allah seals the hearts of those who believe and then disbelieve so that they can understand nothing. 63:3

Disbelievers are perverted. They are the enemy, confounded by Allah. 63:4

Don't bother to ask Allah to forgive the disbelievers. He will never forgive them. 63:6

"Might belongeth to Allah and to His messenger and to the believers." 63:8

Those who disbelieve will have a painful doom. 64:5

Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 64:10

Be stern with disbelievers. They are going to Hell anyway. 66:9

Disbelievers will go to hell where they will hear its roaring and boiling. 67:6-7

Who will protect the disbelievers from a painful doom? (Nobody) 67:28

Refuse to obey the "rejecters" (Non-Muslims?) who seek compromise 68:8-9

Those who consider the Quran to be "mere fables" will be branded on the nose.68:15-16

"Shall We then treat those who have surrendered (Muslims) as We treat the guilty (Non-Muslims)?" 68:35

Those who do not believe in Allah will be chained up and cast into hell-fire where they will eat filth. 69:30-35

Doom is about to fall on all disbelievers. Only worshippers (Muslims) and those who preserve their chastity (except with their wives and slave girls) will be spared from "the fires of hell" that are "eagar to roast." 70:1-30

"Lo! the doom of their Lord is that before which none can feel secure" (except for maybe those who are fearful of it). 70:27-28

Disbelievers will enter hell with frantic with fear, knowing they will be tortured forever by Allah. 70:36, 44

Allah sent Noah to warn people about the painful doom he was planning to send. (It didn't work out well; Allah sent it anyway.) 71:1

Noah asked Allah to drown all the disbelievers. 71:26

The fires of hell will be fueled with the bodies of idolators and unbelievers. They will experience an ever-greater torment. 72:15-17

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will dwell forever in the fire of hell. 72:23

Allah will take care of the deniers. He will tie them up, burn them in a raging fire, and feed them food that chokes them. 73:11-13

The last day will be a day of anguish for disbelievers. 74:9-10

Those who are stubborn to Allah's revelations will face a fearful doom. 74:16-17

Allah has appointed angels to tend the Fire and has prepared stumbling blocks for those who disbelieve. He sends some people (whoever he wants) astray. 74:31

Those who pay attention to this life and ignore the Hereafter will suffer forever in hell. 75:20-29

Allah has prepared chains, manacles, and a raging fire for the disbelievers. 76:4

Don't obey disbelievers. 76:24

Woe unto the repudiators on that day! 77:19, 77:24, 77:28, 77:34, 77:40, 77:45, 77:49

Depart unto that doom which ye used to deny." 77:29

Those who deny the revelations given to Muhammed will burn forever in hell. 78:21-30

"Lo! We warn you of a doom at hand, a day whereon a man will look on that which his own hands have sent before, and the disbeliever will cry: 'Would that I were dust!'" 78:40

Those who rebel by choosing this life over the next will go to hell. 79:37-39

Disbelievers are wicked people. On the last day they will be in darkness and have dust on their faces. 80:40-42

Those who reject Allah's revelations will burn in hell. 83:10-17

The disbelievers used to laugh at the believers. But the final laugh will be on them. 83:29-36

Disbelievers will be given a painful doom. 84:22-24

Those who persecute Muslims, without repenting, will burn in hell. 85:10

Allah plots against non-Muslims. 86:16

"Deal gently with them (non-Muslims) for a while. (How long is "a while"?) 86:17

Allah will punish disbelievers with the direst punishment. 88:23-24

Allah poured the disaster of His punishment upon those who rebelled against him. 89:11-13

Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have the Fire placed over them like an awning. 90:19-20

Those who deny Allah's revelations must endure the flaming fire. 92:14-16

Allah created humans to be "of best stature" but then reduced them "to the lowest of the low". Except for "those who believe and do good works." But what about those who don't believe but do good works? Are they the "lowest of the low"? 95:4-6

Allah will grab those who deny His guidance by the forelock and call the guards of hell. 96:13-18

Those who disbelieve will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. 98:6

skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Couldn't some of these quotes and instructions 'act as a catalyst'
and reinforce the prejudices and delusions fostered by people who are just sociopathicaly intolerant and inherently bigoted anyway?


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Jesus, you again with your ignorant messages.

All those verses need to be studied in context everyone knows that. Don't act dumb, have you seen anyone bring a sentence from a book. Only fouls get retarded by fouls.

reply to post by poet1b


The "kingdoms" that you are alluding only existed in the form of loosely-defined warlord alliances. The problem is that the region never even had a chance to consolidate power through a natural process after the collapse of the Turkish Empire. What should have happened was that Britain and France completely ignore the entire situation and leave them to create their own sovereign entities. But no, there was oil to be discovered. The British needed to refit their navy.

There is no clear pre-Empire identity as to the scope of sovereignty in the Middle East. The Middle East was designed to maximize foreign control over oil reserves, while minimizing potential future risk with the Soviet Union. That's why the Allies had so much influence over the south, whereas the Soviets got stuck with the northern wastelands. The British offered funding and protection for the Sa'ud tribe, which had little more than 200 individuals at the start of its campaign, in exchange for a promise that it would not invade British protectorates in the region. While Arabia was historically organized in states under the leadership of the Sa'ud regime, they were inevitably defeated in the prior century. There was no reason they should make any sort of resurgence. Anyway, oil was in abundance, and Winston Churchill, as First Lord of the Admiralty, definitely influenced politics to consider an economic interest in the Middle East. The Saudi's, now totally consolidated, provided the British, and then Americans, unhindered access to oil in the region. The importance of the country increased further as World War II began. There was such a large interest by foreign powers in the stability of a Saudi regime that it precluded any interest of other regional powers from taking a claim in the resources.

Iraq is a worse example. But something along the same lines can be said for that country as well, with the ruling power having been selected due to their compatibility with the British in making concessions of natural resources and land-use in exchange for protection and funding. The self-determination of large majority populations were undermined in the interest of foreign powers' stakes in oil reserves and in their designs over maximizing political stability through their spheres of influence, in the face of increasing Soviet pressure.

The whole of the Middle East has been misrepresented for so long. And now that oil has hit a peak, and conservatism has gained a foothold, characterized in the recent decades' numerous clerical revolutions, foreign interest is slowly weening off.

Now we can all just wait until a startling new resource is discovered and the world's great powers take advantage of whatever countries seem to possess them, in a mad dash for survival. Uranium is the next best bet, with Africa holding the majority of the world's reserves. It should be interesting seeing the world powers justify an expansion of neo-colonialism in Africa. I wonder how the continent might react. Otherwise, the sufficient development of renewable energies (sufficient because that would take a lot of investment, i.e. uranium is still much cheaper) will definitely help with the democratization of the world, and so we might see a return to political stability. On the other hand, if resources such as food and water become scarce, in lieu of global warming, perhaps global political stability will become an even greater issue and have even greater affects than the race for oil has in this previous century.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by cognoscente]

reply to post by Ownification


I agree to some extent but at the same time this thread is based on extremists which take these verses as they are and as ignorant as we accuse each other in the free world saying they are out of context does not mean extremists do not use these quotes in the same way as a rule of action to be taken. You will also find that even Muslims are not aware of some of the extreame contents either because they don't read it from start to end.

What people need to know is that the more tolerant verses in the Qur'an are over ridden by the latter verses because as a golden rule they have superiority over it. As where the Bible is concerned the Old Testament is just that, OLD and the new liberation of tolerance and free for all attitude has been taken up. The ultimate sacrifice in Christ and all people of the earth may benefit from his judgement before we get to the Father and islam does not have that spiritual safety net.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by karl 12


I would say that very contempt is firmly rooted in structural importance of a sustained clerical revolution as an instrument of political mobilization instead of it being inherently part of any personal religious ideal. If left to practice their faiths conscientiously, a lot of conflict might have have been avoided. Unfortunately, socioeconomic circumstances in the Middle East for probably the entire duration of Islam's existence have precluded the spiritual development of the faith into anything more than a tool for conquest for use by the powers that be. I do believe, however, that such a revitalization of pure spirituality is quite possible, especially with the wealth and affluence the Middle East is currently experiencing.

It's interesting to note the similarities between radical Islam today and that of crusader Christianity of the Middle Ages. They were both born out of reaction to a perceived threat to their respective societies. The rapidly expanding and then enormous Abbasid Caliphate posed a direct threat to the equally rapidly converting Christian states of Europe. The rise of the Ottoman Empire surely exacerbated the situation, with interminable military conflict having only ceased in the last three or so hundred years. Obviously, the crusaders of ages past have been depicted in much more romantic terms. Even the then faithless Slavic defenders of Europe, such as the Romanians and Croatians, who provided a sturdy bulwark against Ottoman expansion against the Volga river, have been canonized within the framework of a quasi-Christian narrative. It's all just perspective.


[edit on 2-3-2009 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by Ownification

 

I agree to some extent but at the same time this thread is based on extremists which take these verses as they are and as ignorant as we accuse each other in the free world saying they are out of context does not mean extremists do not use these quotes in the same way as a rule of action to be taken. You will also find that even Muslims are not aware of some of the extreame contents either because they don't read it from start to end.

What people need to know is that the more tolerant verses in the Qur'an are over ridden by the latter verses because as a golden rule they have superiority over it. As where the Bible is concerned the Old Testament is just that, OLD and the new liberation of tolerance and punishments have been toned down because of the ultimate sacrifice in Christ and all people of the earth may benefit from his judgement before we get to the Father.

Agreed but the problem is that every religious book can be mis-interpreted, get it. Your point would be 100% correct if people only read certain verses, but we all know that it is a responsibility of every Muslim to read the Quran from the beginning to the end. That is an important point to consider. You gain a great reward for memorizing the whole Quran in its original language another point to consider.

People who take it out of context are like the criminals who kill and blame the system, that is another point that need to be taken in to consideration. This subject is too broad therefore it is pointless to look at it through a crack.

The west should stop this mission to modernize Islam because it will have the opposite affect hence 99% of Muslims hate America (not the American people). Modernization should come from within the Muslim community and without any help from America who is considered as the enemy of Islam.

But the broader problem is that America has interests, Saudi Arabia which is the most extremist country in the world is an American ally therefore America does not feel like it has the obligation to do anything about it. If this double standard exists than the best way forward would be to completely forget about it and let them naturally change.

See the reason why Muslims are becoming extremists is a lot to do with the American foreign policy, they have adopted this belief that America can be defeated by going back to the old ways hence the golden age of Islam. If Muslims didn't face any threats from the US, I'm sure they wouldn't need to adopt this idea, let's not forget that they are facing a super power therefore they need all the help they can get hence from GOD. That is why they are adopting the old ways which they believe is the correct ways...

Long topic to discuss but that's all for now.

reply to post by Ownification


It makes sense but I feel Islam is very much its own machine of power at work, it does not care who it takes bites out of as long as Islam rules and in every boardering society where islam and non Muslims meet there is beheadings and blood shed in the same light as their prophet once did. The war of ideology is not based on islam verses the West but Islam verses Islam, Islam verses Buddhists and Islam verses Hindus and comminusts untill it wins through extreamist fear.

America has been its own worst enemy and should not try and fix the Islamic countries nor any communists because either and at the end of the day they will bite back. What the West needs to do is stop helping out, let their leaders sort their own out because with western technology they will bite the hand that feeds them.

Look at Russia with Europe and the oil the people of Europe are dependent on. If Russia choses they could really do harm to Europe's economy if war broke out if they they sided with the Muslim countries it could be used as a blackmailing tool.

The free world should only help each other out first because in the end you can trust them like a family. Muslims won't help each other's nations out and will treat their people there own way rgardless of so called human rights, the Communists don't mix with anyone either so as a power the UN should rely on it self and sod the countries who want each other dead any way and at the same time don't give them nukes and weapons because they will the first to be your back stabbers when the world might come to a brink of war.

America should help it self and the same to Europe now and leave the rest to depopulate under their own persecuting dictators because when they do come over to your nations they will blow you up from the inside and repopulate you from within.

We should forget the Middle East untill in evoloves from within and help the poor people of Africa out and kick out the extreamists who highjack African countries who have no defence which are then turned into Sharia states because a lot of the killings there are also Islamic related.

I may sound wrong but kind of feels right for this moment of conversation.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by The time lord]

Originally posted by The time lord
One son by Hagar who's seed is not free compared to the son from Sarah who's seed is free and like wise Islam is not free by it's own laws and the people are slaves to it while the Christian world is free from old testemant laws that include stoning of women and even that was just a Jewish custom in the presence of the God the Father when the Isrealites were in the dessert.

Not to go off topic here, but define the word "free." Are Christians still not bound by the 10 Commandments? Do male Judeo-Christians still get a circumcision to hold the covenant with God?

Saying that Christians do not have to follow the OT teachings is a farce. Jesus even said that he came not to deny the teachings of the OT, but to fulfill it. You cannot tell me that the Christians today are not supposed to follow the OT, when it's the OT that is what still guides the Christians of today.

In a sense, yes Muslims are slaves and servants. We are willing serve God, and follow God's teachings to better ourselves. One of his most important teachings is to love your fellow man, and help whenever possible.

There is no religion that exists in the world where people are free. To be part of the faith is to willingly set yourself to follow rules to guide your life by. Even Atheists have moral laws that they live their lives by.

[edit on Mon Mar 2nd 2009 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by The time lord
One son by Hagar who's seed is not free compared to the son from Sarah who's seed is free and like wise Islam is not free by it's own laws and the people are slaves to it while the Christian world is free from old testemant laws that include stoning of women and even that was just a Jewish custom in the presence of the God the Father when the Isrealites were in the dessert.

Not to go off topic here, but define the word "free." Are Christians still not bound by the 10 Commandments? Do male Judeo-Christians still get a circumcision to hold the covenant with God?

Saying that Christians do not have to follow the OT teachings is a farce. Jesus even said that he came not to deny the teachings of the OT, but to fulfill it. You cannot tell me that the Christians today are not supposed to follow the OT, when it's the OT that is what still guides the Christians of today.

In a sense, yes Muslims are slaves and servants. We are willing serve God, and follow God's teachings to better ourselves. One of his most important teachings is to love your fellow man, and help whenever possible.

There is no religion that exists in the world where people are free. To be part of the faith is to willingly set yourself to follow rules to guide your life by. Even Atheists have moral laws that they live their lives by.

[edit on Mon Mar 2nd 2009 by DJMessiah]

The ten commandmenst do not say stone anyone either or have anything to do with Leveticus priesthood rules as that was only a phase in mans contact with God who compromised the situation of the time. It does not say kill the gay one either or kill the adulteress. Did not Jesus teach not to be hypocrites?

"Now when the Pharisees gathered together to Him, with some of the scribes, who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of His disciples ate with hands defiled, that is, unwashed. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they wash their hands, observing the tradition of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions which they observe, the washing of cups and pots and vessels of bronze. And the Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with hands defiled?"
"And He said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you Hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' You leave the Commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men." And He said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the Commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition!" (Mark 7:1-9 RSV)

Along with the self-righteousness was spiritual blindness; not all Jews recognized the long-awaited Messiah when He came. Instead, they accused Him of blasphemy (which was itself blasphemous), and on at least one occasion attempted to stone Him to death even though, while under Roman rule, they had no lawful authority to do so, as they themselves well knew ("It is not lawful for us to put any man to death" (John 18:31 RSV), but ignored:


"Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of Whom you say that he is your God. But you have not known Him; I know Him. If I said, I do not know Him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know Him and I keep His Word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see My day; he saw it and was glad."
Text

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by Ownification

 

It makes sense but I feel Islam is very much its own machine of power at work, it does not care who it takes bites out of as long as Islam rules and in every boardering society where islam and non Muslims meet there is beheadings and blood shed in the same light as their prophet once did. The war of ideology is not based on islam verses the West but Islam verses Islam, Islam verses Buddhists and Islam verses Hindus and comminusts untill it wins through extreamist fear.

America has been its own worst enemy and should not try and fix the Islamic countries nor any communists because either and at the end of the day they will bite back. What the West needs to do is stop helping out, let their leaders sort their own out because with western technology they will bite the hand that feeds them.

Look at Russia with Europe and the oil the people of Europe are dependent on. If Russia choses they could really do harm to Europe's economy if war broke out if they they sided with the Muslim countries it could be used as a blackmailing tool.

The free world should only help each other out first because in the end you can trust them like a family. Muslims won't help each other's nations out and will treat their people there own way rgardless of so called human rights, the Communists don't mix with anyone either so as a power the UN should rely on it self and sod the countries who want each other dead any way and at the same time don't give them nukes and weapons because they will the first to be your back stabbers when the world might come to a brink of war.

America should help it self and the same to Europe now and leave the rest to depopulate under their own persecuting dictators because when they do come over to your nations they will blow you up from the inside and repopulate you from within.

We should forget the Middle East untill in evoloves from within and help the poor people of Africa out and kick out the extreamists who highjack African countries who have no defence which are then turned into Sharia states because a lot of the killings there are also Islamic related.

I may sound wrong but kind of feels right for this moment of conversation.

[edit on 2-3-2009 by The time lord]

That is not a good point at all when saying that it is Islam verse all. That point can be applied to all human systems including Democracy, Wasn't it the West who wanted to impose Democracy on GAZA and when they did hold election and chose Hamas, the Western countries were the first ones who didn't recognize them, that is what I mean about the double standards. See GAZANS who are Muslims adopted Democracy, so is it really Islam vs everyone else? No not at all. Muslims have been willing to adopt but the Western interests come in play and force Muslims to turn to their GOD. If you won't help them then they will help themselves the way they can, the way they know, and what they know is Islam.

Every system that has ever existed has been in conflict with other systems, and some of its followers take it too far. Islam is probably the most modernized system since it is very flexible. Think about it, Quran the text of Muslims can be interpreted in many, many different ways therefore can change through time to provide for the needs of people, and solve the problems of the time. Quran is the only text of Muslims people who argue and say no it is not are the extremists who have chosen that path because of the American aggression against the Muslim people.

I find it funny that most people call a car-bomb a terror attack, but if it is a plane bomb they don't regard it as terror attack, as if people don't get terrorized when thousands of bombs are dropped within 24 hours. In order to avoid being biased you need to be open minded and think about all sides, as I said before this issue is broader than one might think.

Originally posted by The time lord
The ten commandmenst do not say stone anyone either or have anything to do with Leveticus priesthood rules as that was only a phase in mans contact with God who compromised the situation of the time. It does not say kill the gay one either or kill the adulteress. Did not Jesus teach not to be hypocrites?

You just posted a straw-man argument.

Nothing I said mentioned stoning people or killing gays. You said specifically that Christians were "free" from the OT's teachings, when in fact I wrote that Jesus came to confirm the teachings of the OT, and that Christians are still bound by 10 commandments.

If you want to go into verses that condemn the stoning of individuals, then so be it. The only verse in the NT that condemns it is when Jesus saves Mary from being stoned to death, but the problem with this verse is that it's not in the original scriptures. It was added latter by a monk who was given the task of translating the Bible. This verse was only added as a side note (literally as a side note, on the edge of the page), where the monk questions if an event took place.

Paul who never met Jesus incorporated his own teachings into the Bible, some which went back to the teachings of the OT (such as how to treat women).

Now going back to being "free," where you said Muslims aren't free and Christians are, please define "free." Are Christians still held by rules, just as Muslims are?

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by karl 12

 

Its almost like God lead you here to express this because the Bible verse in my reply speaks of the nature of the Arabic way as slaves to their nature and how the Christian's or the free world is not of the same nature as in not accepting the outsiders of the religious social circle.

Ahahaha... yes, Im sure God sent him here to defame his very creations. Or do you not believe Muslims were created by the same God? Careful, if so you're turning Christianity into polytheism...
I highly suggest you read the site he got those quotes off of to show that your scripture is just as, if not more, intolerant.

Originally posted by The time lord
It makes sense but I feel Islam is very much its own machine of power at work, it does not care who it takes bites out of as long as Islam rules and in every boardering society where islam and non Muslims meet there is beheadings and blood shed in the same light as their prophet once did. The war of ideology is not based on islam verses the West but Islam verses Islam, Islam verses Buddhists and Islam verses Hindus and comminusts untill it wins through extreamist fear.

But there is not. In places like Lebanon Christians and Muslims live in peace(in fear of Israel)... think back to Palestine before Israel became a recognised state. Every pilgrimage was of mixed faith and people all worshipped peacefully in jerusalem.
In a way, I agree, Muslims are slaves to their religion; for example, they are not allowed to drink alcohol, I find that highly respectable, but I could never do that! Vodka and me have a loving relationship.

But so is every other religious person! (please distinguish 'religious' from 'belief in God'). They are forced to be slaves to God rather than just love him (think worship), and give money to make churches more lavish than necessary, paying off your priest's Corvette... worshipping images of the cross and other false idols, creating graven images of Jesus...
There are many Christians who want Christian law brutally enforced over the West, just as many Muslims want strict adherence.

You could say Biblically speaking that the Christians are free from the total judgement of the Father where they have the Christ to fall on as back up and they are free in that sense from all the complexities and old traditions. Christians do not have to Circumcise their parts because it is done through Christ for example so he has fulfilled the law but changed some practices for example, Christians compared to Jews and Muslims are made to feel less guilty and do less ritualistic pleasing like praying five times a day for example. A lot of these self punishments of guilt had been done away with and just on that basis they are free from that bondage which has been already played for

Matthew 6:7
"When you pray, don't babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered only by repeating their words again and again."
Text

But in Islam you only have the creator figure and the Old Testament type system to fall back on without the updated fullfilments, Christ is there as the sacrifice to get around that so everything is a lot less harsh compared to Islamic law which is still governed by the Father creator figure. They are different covenants of both religious doctrines and Islam and the Jewish religion is stuck in the past beyond 2000AD.

1 Timothy 5
23Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
Text

It's good to drink too sometimes, not get drunk but just to chill out now and then. I probably need to.

[edit on 3-3-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by The time lord

Very good points about feeling less guilty, and the circumcision, and whatnot. I too find it strange to have to pray all the time and use strict ancient rules... but then again going to church every Sunday is the same thing, just less frequent.
I like to think of that as like... Christmas, and Birthdays, for example. Every time it rolls around, you get a gift, expected, not very special.

I prefer doing it randomly, so it doesnt feel forced. Like giving a rose to your loved one after work, or on some arbitrary day, it seems more loving to me than being forced because it is some "holiday".

I hope you get my point. Truth is, all religions need work.

I think everyone in the world could use a drink. Or, something less dangerous, like Aldous Huxley's Soma Drop, then no one will crash their car

i]reply to post by cognoscente


Ah, the warlords didn't have a chance to consolidate power through a natural process, and exactly what is that? The Local Muslim warlords imposing their will on the local populace through brutal methods. Heck, if that is the way things are supposed to happened, then why did the Europeans ever end colonialism? Why aren't we following the natural course by wiping out everyone in a village where these terrorists military strikes come from. That would be the natural way of doing things, as opposed to the civilized way of doing things. It seems your real problem is with who is in control. Who is doing the killing, raping, and pillaging.

I think you need to take a closer look at history, and the time line when oil was developed. You need to provide some links to back up your claims. Exactly how much oil is located along the Mediterranean region of the Middle East? I think you are just repeating propaganda aimed at getting Muslims to hate the west. You might want to consider you have had the wool pulled over your eyes on these issues.

Yeah, after Russia went communist, there was considerable effort to contain the USSR, and for good reason. Do you think Stalin was a good guy? Do you think living under a totalitarian government is the way to live? Yeah, western nations like the U.S. and Britain opposed socialists, who historically, every single time after winning in democratic elections, wound up setting up dictatorships. Watch Chavez, he is going in that direction already, and it won't be too long.

Yeah, the British found allies in the Middle East, and supported them. This is wrong how? The Middle East has gotten rich off of the natural resources developed by them by Western nations like the U.S. and Britain. Exactly what is wrong with this? Please explain specifically how the U.S. and the British have done the Middle East oil producing nations so wrong? You might want to consider that they chose to work with the mildest of the warlords who controlled those regions, instead of those brutal warlords who were only interested in building their own power.

The self-determination of large majority populations were undermined by a vast number of things. Blaming the problems of the Middle East on the Western nations, who have done them far more good than harm, only serves the propagandist. The Propagandists spreading this conflict, if you were to look into the situation, have far more sinister agendas than what the Western powers have done.

You need to stop claiming that the Western powers, specifically Britain and the U.S. have done some terrible thing to the Middle East that justifies terrorism, because that justification does not exist. By repeating this unsubstantiated claim, all you are doing is the bidding of the PTB. You might want to consider that corporations have no borders either, and can equally sponsor terrorism. The Corporate entities are not the same as Britain, or the U.S., they are their own global force. By supporting the concept of terrorism, you are just playing into the hands of the wrong people.

The scary thing about Africa and Uranium, is that sooner or later the wrong people are going to get themselves an A bomb, and blow up some major metro. Control of Uranium in Africa would be a good thing. I don't think there is a shortage of Uranium for fuel, the problem has more to do with disposal of waste. The problem isn't the countries, it is the corporate entities. This is the reality people need to wake up and see. The terrorists aren't even going after the right people. Why is that? Are they stupid? Or do they work for the bad guys?

reply to post by Ridhya

In places like Lebanon Christians and Muslims live in peace

You need to look up the situation of Lebanon, this is hardly the situation. Syria invaded, took over, and controlled Lebanon for a long time, and Muslims have essentially taken control of the country, and the Christians live under Muslim domination.

thegate.nationaljournal.com...

Meanwhile, the anti-government Hezbollah remains largely confined to ghettos outside Beirut and along the border, as was seen during Israel's failed war with the group in 2006. As with heavily armed Islamic militant groups everywhere, Beirut has found that ridding itself of these extremist elements is a very difficult task -- so much so that more and more of Lebanon's Maronite Christians are fleeing, according to a December Newsweek report.

jfj123, I did not think there was anyone left who believed that radical Muslims attacked America on 9/11. As no real proof has ever been provided or any real attempt at finding out what really happened why do you think the way you do.

Agent Carl, where did you get those interpretations of the Quran, Jerusalem News. Any language and holy book can be turned into something its not and there are always those who will believe what they want to believe meaning lies and disinfo.

Pehaps when we stop killing Muslims they might stop killing us. Its as simple as that. Whilst Americans go about their daily business without a care in the World other Americans are killing innocent Muslim men women and children on a daily basis. Again I ask the question if that was happening to America and Americans or anyone else for that matter don't you thnk some Americans would be radicalised by those actions.