Radical Islam

Originally posted by DJMessiah

You can trace many if not all the major problems in the Middle East to Western meddling, including radical Islam. Thanks to the West, Wahabism took over Saudi Arabia and all moderate belief systems were forced to take a back seat.

So, are you suggesting that no sense of cultural and personal responsibility cannot be assumed for the individual Muslims and parts of the Muslim world where "Western Meddling" has touched who have decided to act violently in the name of Islam? I think your comments here are insulting to Islam and Muslims...or maybe there is a deep sarcasm implied here that I am too retarded to grasp...in such case, please forgive me. In any case, last I checked, human beings, regardless of race or religious affiliation have a responsibility to be decent and moral citizens without being cattle prodded to do so. Blaming a whole group of people's shortcomings on another group of people is a cop out of the highest degree, in my most humble, noobish opinion.

reply to post by poet1b

Indeed poet1b. It almost seems as though the government are determined to 'fan the flames', to test the British people. Incredible that someone like Geert Wilders - an elected Dutch MP - can be banned from entering Britain for merely documenting the truth about Islam, whilst GENUINE inciters of hatred such as extremist Muslim clerics and higher-ups seem to swarm in with great ease. There's more than meets-the-eye to this wider issue.

Originally posted by asmeone2
The thing is though, I think we, with our foreign policies of bomb first, ask later, have handled this abysmally. We've only proved that the West is evil and needs to go.

No, you need to watch the documentary. These seeds of this stretch back for many years. It is noble to look at yourself to blame, but watch the documentary. It doesnt matter if we left those people alone or not. they hate you, its as simple as that. they consider you an animal to be sold into slavery or butchered. Does that sound like they are motivated by foreign policy? Dont let the ultra liberal groups make you an apologist for their attrocities. Was nazism and world war 2 a result of foreign policy? those people that say this stuff today said it back then.

Radical islam, or islam in general, is a threat!

My My, What are the mods thinking of allowing 6 pages of hate, ignorance and fear to spew forth I thought ATS was against that sort of thing or maybe its just me.

The simple trruth is that the perps are using our minds to induce fear and they are good at it. Today its radical Muslims tomorrow it will be food shortages but what ever the subject matter is you can gurantee it will do its job very efectively.

Are their radicals out there yes, of many different shades and colours but one must ask the question, the all improtant question what makes them become radicals. Its simple when you creat a vaccum, when you creat instability all manner of things get sucked into it = radicalism.

As an example if you removed law an order you would have anarchy, therefore in order for people to become radicalised some event must take palce beforehand. When those mechanisms are removed there are no radicals.

An example: The populace of Germany before the rise of Hitler may not have been a happy lot after losing ww1, loss of land , the imposition of massive reparations and occupying troops but those facts lay the seeds for Hitlers Nazi party to grow. If those factors had not existed Hitler and the Nazis would have never happened.

Ergo, Muslims the World over see themselves as being targeted by the West, Muslims are killed on a daily basis couple that with torture, poverty, disanfrachisment etc. = radical Muslims. If you remove the reason for somebody to fight then they will not fight simple as.

If you dehumanise a human then you make a monster that will kill on demand. We dehumanise all the time and have thoughout mans known history and each time that has occured we breed radicals.

But the bigger picture at the moment is that we are now in another religeous war or so the perps would have us believe so the whole movement is to demonise Muslims and their faith no matter what. Every action will be blown out of all proportion whilst our actions against them will go unseen and unheard.

To put it into simple terms how would the average American feel if he or she had an occupying force in their country running it controlling it killing the populace with impunity would those actions not make some Americans radicals.

This makes me sick.
They have no honor or code.
They are willing to kill innocent men, women and children for no reason other then to spread terror. They're COWARDS who hide in caves.

What I hope people really understand is that we cannot negotiate with them because they don't want peace, they want us to DIE. There is no middle ground or compromise.

Countries like spain who have given in to them make all the other countries jobs that much more difficult.

We need to send a message of unity to these EVIL, SICK sub-humans that their policies of terror will not be tolerated.

If they attack us and destroy a building, we attack them and destroy their entire community of terror. They must understand that when they go after member nations, those nations will go after them but with everything they have with unyielding conviction and without mercy.

Evil cannot be bargained with, only destroyed.
Spain made a huge mistake, they gave into terrorism. Instead they should have stated that when you attack us, we will decisively attack you.
If every country responded to terror with MASSIVE retaliation, the terrorists would learn they cannot win.
All of the allies with spain should have gotten together, hunted down those responsible and their associates and their associates associates, and put 1 million troops on the ground and removed them from existence.

I know this sounds harsh but when you hear these terrorists tell you that there is nothing they want from you except to die, you understand that it's you or them. The live in a black and white world which violates their own spiritual laws.

The jews couldn't bargain their way out of nazi death camps and we cannot bargain our way out of this.

jfj, the last time I looked there were plenty of Americans and others willing to kill plenty of innocent men women and children or is it a case of that if they are not white they don't count. Some of them hit back because of what we do to them. If you cannot grasp that concept then just think of how Americans felt when the Japanese attacked the US. Perhaps that will give you some insight as to why they act like they do.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
jfj, the last time I looked there were plenty of Americans and others willing to kill plenty of innocent men women and children or is it a case of that if they are not white they don't count. Some of them hit back because of what we do to them. If you cannot grasp that concept then just think of how Americans felt when the Japanese attacked the US. Perhaps that will give you some insight as to why they act like they do.

It's never ok to kill the innocent under any circumstances no matter who's doing it.

And look at what happened to the japanese when they attacked us. They were nuked.

Innocents unfortunately do die in the course of any war and that should never happen. The difference here is that muslim terrorists target innocents as a matter of policy.

Please explain to me what those people in the WTC's did to the terrorists? When did those people in the WTC's attack muslims?

[edit on 1-3-2009 by jfj123]

reply to post by jfj123


You cannot have Democracy or a liberal society with Islam; it's in their law not to mix when people are going to get that.
Yes there are moderate Muslims in the West but at the top of that pyramid in society is fear, honour killings and radical preachers keeping the pyramid together and the same with the rest of the Islamic countries.
You cannot say certain verses in the Qur’an don't exist and Muslims don't act them out. Why do they act out their hate in the same colour as their scriptures as seen throughout all Islamic societies of all races? it’s not the West that needs telling they misinterpret their book but themselves. But what if half of their preaching of hate is actually of the Qur’an does that mean we should deny it and say its unrelated? Its funny how they keep it consistently throughout history and all Islamic nations to the same suicide bombings, the same decapitations the same forced conversions and the same intolerance of other religions and the same stance against the world that is not Islamic. You don't have to be a genius to work that out but it’s very hard to try and convince the sympathisers of Islam that all this is related.

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by jfj123

 

You cannot have Democracy or a liberal society with Islam; it's in their law not to mix when people are going to get that.
Yes there are moderate Muslims in the West but at the top of that pyramid in society is fear, honour killings and radical preachers keeping the pyramid together and the same with the rest of the Islamic countries.
You cannot say certain verses in the Qur’an don't exist and Muslims don't act them out. Why do they act out their hate in the same colour as their scriptures as seen throughout all Islamic societies of all races? it’s not the West that needs telling they misinterpret their book but themselves. But what if half of their preaching of hate is actually of the Qur’an does that mean we should deny it and say its unrelated? Its funny how they keep it consistently throughout history and all Islamic nations to the same suicide bombings, the same decapitations the same forced conversions and the same intolerance of other religions and the same stance against the world that is not Islamic. You don't have to be a genius to work that out but it’s very hard to try and convince the sympathisers of Islam that all this is related.

Good post.
I couldn't agree more even if I tried too

Wake up defend yourself from those who would behead you just for not agreeing with them....fight back.

Do you mean 10-15% of THESE numbers?

www.islamicweb.com...

Originally posted by The time lord

 

You cannot say certain verses in the Qur’an don't exist and Muslims don't act them out.

It occurs to me that people are allowed to do and say as they please, in free society.

and the same intolerance of other religions and the same stance against the world that is not Islamic.

Huh. Like your religious intolerance of Islam.

I have a couple friends who are Muslim. Im still here. Just because you hear some alarmist newscasts saying theyre all evil doesnt make it so.

The extremists, yes, but there are those in every group.
In Israel you get sent to jail for trying to convert a Jew.

In America, you cant be voted president unless you are Christian

Radicalism is the start of a reactionary process, whose members are unable to cope with perceptively inevitable change, in whatever form that might take. But what we must ask ourselves is "What are our societies doing to propagate such reactions?", and "What can we do to ease the transition?" The path to globalism is becoming a certain reality, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen. If it turns out we are entering this global world too quickly, conservatism might just prevail. This can be clearly observed today in the growing insubordinate nature of the individual state governments in respect to that of the federal organization of the U.S. The growth of the Deobandi Islamists in Britain might indicate the possibility of an impending systemic failure for global economic and political integration.

It is funny that you provided this article though, since the Deobandi themselves are strictly against violence. Sure, they might be conservative but they are not fanatical in any way. I'm sorry but you're entirely wrong in this regard. Considering puritan Christians are behind the majority of media opinion toward these people, I am not surprised at all that the Time had been influenced by such ignorant bias.

en.wikipedia.org...

In February 2008, an "Anti-terrorism Conference" organized by the seminary Darul Uloom in Deoband, Uttar Pradesh, denounced all forms of terrorism, saying "Islam prohibits killing of innocent people," and "Islam sternly condemns all kinds of oppression, violence and terrorism." The conference also denounced widespread attempts to blame religious Muslims for terrorist incidents and many Muslim clerics declare terrorism as a concept that is antithetical to Islam.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by cognoscente]

I went to church today and felt guilty the entire time for my earlier posting saying "the only good muslim is a dead muslim." That is not what I learned in church. I know I must pray for them especially those poor children. I get very emotional when it comes to this topic.

I attended a university in from 1981-1985 in Washington, DC where there were a lot of Muslims. Some of my closets friends were Iranians. They were some of the most cultured, genteel people I have ever had the good fortune to meet. One of my fraternity brothers was a very devout Eygyptian Muslim and 20% of our brothers were jewish.

By the end of that 4 year stage of my life, my world view had changed considerably compared with my teenage world view shaped in realatively redneck Virginia and being Greek where we are taught to dispise all Muslims, especially Turks.

Things started to turn around as I did media training for the PLO just prior to the Clinton negotiations where I began to realize that Arafat was tied much more closely to the radicals than he had let on and the Palestinians let there best chance for peace evaporate. Things just got worse when the radicals accused Arafat of being a sympathizer and Jihad was the only path.

When I finally read "Sword of the Prophet" and followed it up with "Chechnya, a terrorist Training Ground," I had become convinced that Islam had actually been usurped by Dark forces with a capital D. Such hatred is not human, it can only come from pure evil.

If you believe in God, you have to believe in the opposing force. There is pure love in our universe and there is pure evil. There would have been no reason to enlighten humans with the power of choice if there were not the possibility of being influenced by evil. I think thats why angels were created first. Without a choice how deep could their love for God truly be.

I think we are coming towards the ultimate showdown and people are going to have to choose sides. Do you know where you really stand?

Originally posted by zarp3333
If you believe in God, you have to believe in the opposing force. There is pure love in our universe and there is pure evil. There would have been no reason to enlighten humans with the power of choice if there were not the possibility of being influenced by evil. I think thats why angels were created first. Without a choice how deep could their love for God truly be.

I think we are coming towards the ultimate showdown and people are going to have to choose sides. Do you know where you really stand?

Absolutely wrong. It appears you didn't go to catechism school when you were young, did you?

Christianity is not purely dualistic. It's ironic that as a Christian you follow the preachings of Islam more closely. Maybe you should study your faith? You can't just call yourself Christian and base your beliefs off conjecture and personal anecdote, and what your so-called preachers have repeated to you each week. Nor can you call yourself Christian if you merely inherited your faith from your family though an expected cultural obligation.

There are no sides to be chosen. Sure, strictly speaking Christians believe in a metaphysical dualism, where good and evil exist in reality. However, it is not as simple as that. In On Free Choice of the Will, Saint Augustine contends that evil is not the opposite of good, but merely its absence. Ergo, evil has no existence in itself. It's not your job to confront evil. You leave that to God. Whereas Islam is founded on meta-ethical principles of moral absolutism, Christianity comes nowhere near. Judgment lays strictly in the hands of God. And that can never be channeled through any human being, no matter how "intimate" you believe you are with your faith.

[edit on 1-3-2009 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by TheAmused
I think Personally..i said Personally!!

We didn't bomb enough .

Who in today's day in time go around killing because my god is better than your god?
If your god want's you to take childrens life's in a cowardly manner such as suicide bomb's ect...and claim it make's them holy....Pshhhh piss on that!!

That's ignorance and apparently this religion must breed ignorance...look how many percentage wise think's it's Awesome to kill themselves killing westerner's.

Every country should ban the Muslim belief...or at least put law's on there religion.
Look at Waco Texas ..The man claimed he was Jesus or something they all lived in a compound..even had alot of gun's.
They wiped them off the earth...killed everyone.

Even the Mormon had to have law's placed on them here in the united state's...wanting to have 40 wife's basically.

Remember that guy drawed a cartoon of Muhammad..the Muslim burn church's of Christians...killed every non Muslim westerner they could find in that one country.
A Dang cartoon they didn't even draw cost them there life's!!!!!

all religions need stricter laws put upon them not just Muslim....so stupid crap like what we are going through with the Muslim belief Does not happen again.


Right now what would we as American's call a religion that is starting out..
If you speak ill of it or against it..they kill you or your children....and it was on the corner of your street...
What would you call it?

Now that you answered that question correctly.....Why in sam hill do you people Coward to this bs.

I know if muslim's got in front of the county courthouse here in my county screaming jihad!!!!!.
Every redneck in 100 miles would come to make sure they didn't go spouting there mouth's again ..i can assure you that.

Maybe that's why i never saw a radical Muslim around my state

[edit on 28-2-2009 by TheAmused]

[edit on 28-2-2009 by TheAmused]

[edit on 28-2-2009 by TheAmused]

Putting laws on a religion is not the thing to do. One should be able to worship as they please. what you can and some do regulate is what these people are allowed to be able to do under the umbrella of religious expression. I may want to believe in Ra the Sun God and part of that worship is to sacrifice a virgin (lol..I live in Ky. Virgins are really hard to come by!). But murder is a crime,. Even here in Kentucky. So if I was to sacrifice a virgin I would be arrested, tried, and convicted of the crime. My religion would not protect me. In the case of the people of Islam they should be allowed to practice their faith. But when that practice constrains ones right to be alive the individuals should be punished accordingly.

So in countries that have these crazy Islamic killing parties it's rather illegal or not to kill people for no other reason other than a difference in politics or dogma. These groups always seem to be in a hurry to take responsibility for their doings. Round them up. Put them on trial, and punish accordingly.

As to the Waco thing...That was not a good example. That was a prime example of our government acting in a fashion that they would arrest anyone else doing the same. They got away with murder. I'm sure there would have been a better way to arrest a man on a warrant. Hell, David Koresh was out in town days before they went postal on an entire building of people.

reply to post by TheAmused

Excellent! Freedom of speech and religion stop at the point of inciting criminal violence; at that point it becomes sedition, criminal conspiracy, and even treason. The laws exist, in England as in America. The Limeys are simply unwilling to enforce any infringement of anybody's rights, even what amounts to street criminals, whenever any religious faith is involved. This weak-kneed stance will weaken England's respect for its own laws, and foreigners' respect for England.
It's time they learned the lesson every schoolboy knows. When the bully pushes you down the first time, you've got to get up swinging, or else the weaker wannabe bullies will also push you around, seeing you're an easy pushover. Why do you think we declared war on Britain in 1812, when they were a definite world power, and we weren't? Because we knew, if we let them provoke us with impunity, pirates all over the world would start raiding our shipping, and our neighbors would never hesitate to encroach upon our borders. We would have lost face immediately and permanently. An enemy within is all the more so not to be tolerated nor appeased. Good Muslims (the majority) will stand with you only if you first stand up for your own rights, and you must draw the line. Immigrants who make no effort to adopt your ways and live peaceably should be expelled, even those born in England to immigrant parents, for the good of the realm.
Bob Brown
your American Cousin

Originally posted by cooler
if radical islam is an after effect of western selfishness, then in the quran ohamed ya know the 40 year old guy that married a 6 year old ?

Care to give us your sources?

well want it mohamed who first lied about wanting to live in peace with every one then started killing of whole villages

He never killed anyone unless they attacked and threatened to kill him and his followers. If you care to say otherwise, name a person he's killed in cold blood.

islam & radical islam are one in the same

To the uneducated, yes they are.

this is what islam teaches muslims to follow the teachings of an insane pedophile.

It's beliefs like yours which creates division among those who understand. Try doing some research before spouting insults.

but what ever you do never question islam its self because that would be unislamic, & would put you in real danger of learning some thing !.

Once, again, another uneducated comment. Islam forbids forced conversion, and blind allegiance. To be a Muslim, one has to question Islam, know why certain practices and beliefs are followed, and continuously educate themselves.


[edit on Mon Mar 2nd 2009 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by The time lord
You cannot have Democracy or a liberal society with Islam

So you're saying there is no form of Democracy in a country with Muslims?

You cannot say certain verses in the Qur’an don't exist and Muslims don't act them out.

Which verses are you speaking of? Be sure to list the ones that haven't already been posted in previous threads and shown to be mistranslated, or the ones you copy and paste from a biased website.

You don't have to be a genius to work that out but it’s very hard to try and convince the sympathisers of Islam that all this is related.

Can you tell me one Islamic country that hasn't been invaded by the West, or has had its goverment forcefully overthrown to that of one controlled by Western powers? You don't have to be a genius to work out that all the extremists that exist today are all because of Western meddling.

The Taliban created by the US...check

Saddam put into power by the US... check

Borders created by the UK, created division among countries within Africa and Asia...check

Iran's current goverment being elected into power after the Iranian Revolution occured to overthrown the goverment the US forcefully put into power without the consent of the Iranians...check.

Pakistan being labeled as a US "ally" when it is known that the Taliban has been coming from there, and the US has done nothing to stop Pakistan's goverment... check.

The British killing off the moderate view point of Islam within Arabia and giving rise to the Saudi rule, and ultimately Wahhabism...check.

It's not Muslim countries who are forcing their beliefs on others, through the threat of death, it's the West and their view that the entire world countries should convert to "Democracy" or face being destroyed.

[edit on Mon Mar 2nd 2009 by DJMessiah]

reply to post by jfj123


I don't really know much about the American situation, so I apologize if I seem ignorant.
But has there really been any terror attacks on the US since 9/11?
If not; why?

One of Al Qaidas founders wrote a book while sitting in Egyptian prison. Can't really remember how it goes, but something like this; "We destroy one of their buildings, they destroy one of our countries. We kill one of their people, they kill a thousand of our people. This is useless"

Ill find the source if that topic interests someone.