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Things that don't sit right with a 911 Truther

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posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 04:58 PM
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Let me start by saying I'm a 911 truther.....%100..all day long....
But there are aspects of the debate that don't ring true with me... Are there any times as a Truther you say.."That's a bit too out there for me!"?

Every day on ATS I see posts by Truthers vs Debunkers and Debunkers vs Truthers....but rarely have I seen a Truther say..."Hey, you know what, this doesn't make sense to me!"

I don't want a load of us arguing amongst ourselves about everything...but I'd love to hear from other Truthers, about things that don't sit right with them, as a 'movement' it would be good to look inside ourselves for once..I feel!

So here's a couple....

1) If WTC 7 was demolished...why do it in broad daylight when all the worlds' cameras were rolling. If they had waited a few hours it would have been dark..and at least less easy to see it was a controlled demolition.

www.youtube.com...

2) If half the claims of the 911 Truth movement are true...then this has to be the sloppiest and worst carried out black op ever....can it be that the US Government carried out such an attack...with holes everywhere?


Now as I mentioned I don't really want you all to argue against me,telling me how dumb I am..showing me I'm wrong..

What I'd like is a few of the problems you see with our explanation of events. Then maybe we can confront them before the Debunkers do!

[edit on 28-2-2009 by kiwifoot]




posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by kiwifoot
1) If WTC 7 was demolished...why do it in broad daylight when all the worlds cameras were rolling. If they had waited a few hours it would have been dark..and at least less easy to see it was a controlled demolition.

WTC 7 was demolished. There is no doubt of that, so let's not tiptoe around it. People are dumb and brainwashed; It wouldn't have made a difference at that point if it were done with the lights on or off.


2) If half the claims of the 911 Truth movement are true...then this has to be the sloppiest and worst carried out black op ever....can it be that the US Government carried out such an attack...with holes everywhere?

not as sloppy as the moon landing hoax. It's actually one of the most well executed operations of all time considering the exposure and the amount of people that were duped.


What I'd like is a few of the problems you see with our explanation of events. Then maybe we can confront them before the Debunkers do!
not everyone has the same opinion on the situation.

As for me

1. No commercial airliners were hijacked on 9-11.
2. No commercial airliners were flown into buildings on 9-11.
3. Three building were brought down by an improvised controlled demolition.
4. One or more agencies within Israel were involved.
5. Various agencies within the United Kingdom were involved.
6. Various agencies within the U.S. were involved.
7. No one made cell calls to their families from those airplanes that day.
8. Muhammad Attas' passport did not magically survive a blazing inferno.
9. No taxi was impaled by a lamp post as a result of a plane hitting it
10. All post 9-11 videos purportedly featuring Osama bin Ladin are fake.
11. Everyone who caught the events on film had their footage confiscated.
12. Professional filmographers were given the task of "capturing" the event.
13. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost their lives as a result.

after considering number 13, specifics are superfluous.

[edit on 2/28/2009 by JPhish]



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by JPhish
 


OK...but do you hane any doubts?? Are there any aspects that make you believe otherwise?

In the interests of healthy debate!



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 05:48 PM
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not really . . .

The way i see it, everything i mentioned there are the most probable things that happened.

[edit on 2/28/2009 by JPhish]



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by kiwifoot
 

IMO We do not have enough evidence to know who did it. The best piece of evidence we have is the micro demolition nukes used to take down the buildings. I think we can all agree that people with access to that tech slims down the suspects somewhat, but among that list its anyone's guess.
Any theory that doesn't include the micro nukes is flawed imo and will lead you to more smoke and mirrors.



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 06:03 PM
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Everyone cannot be lumped into two catagories, either a truther or a debunker. I am niether but have questions as well but for now, Let's evaluate your list.

1. No commercial airliners were hijacked on 9-11.

That is false. Or at least that statement is inacurate. There were people that boarded airplanes and they either were hijacked or kidnapped and killed in another location.

2. No commercial airliners were flown into buildings on 9-11.

That is false. There is "Real" footage (and testimony of eye witnesses) of at least one airline crashing into one of the world trade center buildings. I'm convinced(yet open minded to listen to the opposing view) that Jet's crashed into both of the world trade center buildings.

3. Three building were brought down by an improvised controlled demolition.

I do believe that. Especially pertaining to building 7

4. One or more agencies within Israel were involved.

I don't believe this. Despite circumstantial evidence( and I haven't seen enough of this yet) there is no convincing motive.

5. Various agencies within the United Kingdom were involved.

Again, what would the motive be? No credible evidence.

6. Various agencies within the U.S. were involved.

This is believable. If indeed there was some form of conspiracy, certain agencies in the USA have to have been involved. The motive again isn't plausable.

7. No one made cell calls to their families from those airplanes that day.

They have released calls to the media. We have witness testimony that calls were recieved by family members. Calls were made.

8. Muhammad Attas' passport did not magically survive a blazing inferno.

It might have if it was blown free of the wreckage. Other authentic paperwork has survived both this and other catastrophic wrecks, crashes and explosions. It takes no magic or imagination to see that this is possible.

9. No taxi was impaled by a lamp post as a result of a plane hitting it

No taxi needed to be impaled in any scenario of the pentagon flight path.


10. All post 9-11 videos purportedly featuring Osama bin Ladin are fake.

There is no definitive proof of that. I believe he is dead though.

11. Everyone who caught the events on film had their footage confiscated.

That is very troubling. This is the most damning evidence of all.

12. Professional filmographers were given the task of "capturing" the event.

Who was given the task and where is the video testimony of these photographers.

13. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost their lives as a result.

This is not true. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost their lives after 9-11 as a result of the events of 9-11? No proof. no evidence. Worse case of this would be 20k lives including civilian death tolls in afghanistan, pakistan and Iraq and that's still too high.

I don't post this because I'm a debunking. it's like saying that every living person is either liberal or conservative, or democrat or republican.. most people fall in the middle of these generalizations. I just want the truth. That does not make me a truther. I don't want a label. What I have are questions about 9-11 that don't seem to add up and lots of evidence that the events as depicted actually happened and lots of evidence that something else happened.

the response to this post by "truthers" will be that I need to open my eyes. and the debunkers will say the same thing. stop being delusional and grasping at things that aren't there.


Well?



[edit on 28-2-2009 by amazing]



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by kiwifoot
 


1) If WTC 7 was demolished...why do it in broad daylight when all the worlds' cameras were rolling. If they had waited a few hours it would have been dark..and at least less easy to see it was a controlled demolition.

www.youtube.com...

2) If half the claims of the 911 Truth movement are true...then this has to be the sloppiest and worst carried out black op ever....can it be that the US Government carried out such an attack...with holes everywhere?


Star and flag for you on this one, I believe you have asked a very good question.
As for question number one, it is my opinion that something may have gone wrong with the set up of demolition charges that day in WTC 7. I think they may have wanted that building to come down at the same time the two WTC fell so; it would look as if both towers and their debris fell on WTC 7. Then the government would tell us that WTC 1 & 2 cause WTC7 to collapse, I get the feeling there was a malfunction with the set up in WTC7.

For question two, I really believe it was carried out with holes everywhere, this would be the biggest false flag operation carried out on US soil. As you can see, there were so many people involved, that they could not keep their stories straight. That is why 911 looks so suspicious when reading about it, there is so much inconsistency in every part of the 911 story the whole thing smells of cover-up, and lies, and arrogance. The people in the government that where involved in 911 have made it clear they are innocent and they did not let us down and the whole government did their jobs on 911, that is why there has been no accountability, and in their arrogance they are not going to answer any questions to what happened on 911.
However, the government gave us the 911 white wash commission reports, and that was to answer all of our questions to what happened that day and again reading those reports the government claims no responsibility of not doing their jobs in protecting the American people on 911. (Remember four airplanes flying around in restricted air space for an hour) The Government claimed they did their jobs then what happened to NORAD, and why didn’t they respond in a timely manner?



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by JPhish
1.No commercial airliners were hijacked on 9-11.


Originally posted by amazing
That is false. Or at least that statement is inacurate. There were people that boarded airplanes and they either were hijacked or kidnapped and killed in another location.
my statement is 100% true my friend. If something is hijacked that means there are people on board. Whatever “hit” those buildings was unmanned.


Originally posted by JPhish
2. No commercial airliners were flown into buildings on 9-11.


Originally posted by amazing
That is false. There is "Real" footage of at least one airline crashing into one of the world trade center buildings. I'm convinced(yet open minded to listen to the opposing view) that Jett's crashed into each of the world trade center buildings.

Real footage? Which one of the professional filmographers videos are you referring to?


Originally posted by JPhish
4. One or more agencies within Israel were involved.


Originally posted by amazing
I don't believe this. Despite circumstantial evidence there is no convincing motive.
So those dancing Israeli nationals that were extradited back to their country mistakenly thought that there was a fireworks show going on? Look into who those Israeli men were and you’ll realize how deep this rabbit hole goes.


Originally posted by JPhish
5. Various agencies within the United Kingdom were involved.


Originally posted by amazing
Again, what would the motive be? No credible evidence.

It doesn’t matter what their motive is. They were involved. The BBC reported that WTC 7 fell 20 minutes before it did. That proves that the BBC was involved. The train bombings months later were perpetrated by the agencies within their own government. Look into the specifics if you need to. Same exact thing that happened in the U.S.; Training simulations for a terrorist attack happening on the day a terrorist attack actually happens.


Originally posted by JPhish
6. Various agencies within the U.S. were involved.



Originally posted by amazing
This is believable. If indeed there was some form of conspiracy, certain agencies in the USA have to have been involved.

Not as many as you’d think.


Originally posted by JPhish
7. No one made cell calls to their families from those airplanes that day.


Originally posted by amazing
They have released calls to the media. We have witness testimony that calls were recieved by family members. Calls were made.

Read what I wrote, I never said that calls weren’t made, simply that they were not from airplanes.


Originally posted by JPhish
8. Muhammad Attas' passport did not magically survive a blazing inferno.



Originally posted by amazing
It might have if it was blown free of the wreckage. Other authentic paperwork has survived both this and other catastrophic wrecks, crashes and explosions. It takes no magic or imagination to see that this is possible.
listen to what you are saying.


Originally posted by JPhish
9. No taxi was impaled by a lamp post as a result of a plane hitting it



Originally posted by amazing
No taxi needed to be impaled in any scenario of the pentagon flight path.

Guess you should tell that to the people that wrote the 9-11 script and who wrote the 9-11 CR.


Originally posted by JPhish
10. All post 9-11 videos purportedly featuring Osama bin Ladin are fake. it


Originally posted by amazing
There is no definitive proof of that. I believe he is dead though.

yes there is. If 1 through 9 are true, then 10 is true by default.


Originally posted by JPhish
11. Everyone who caught the events on film had their footage confiscated.



Originally posted by amazing
That is very troubling. This is the most damning evidence of all.

Not more damning than the pentagon, the most widely surveillanced building in the world, not capturing a giant plane hitting into it with any of it’s hundreds of cameras.


Originally posted by JPhish
12. Professional filmographers were given the task of "capturing" the event.


Originally posted by amazing
Who was given the task and where is the video testimony of these photographers.
just find out who the shooters are for all the 9-11 footage. It’s either a news network camera man or a professional filmographer. They’re not hiding it, just look it up. In the interviews they admit to it.


Originally posted by JPhish
13. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost their lives as a result.


Originally posted by amazing
This is not true. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost their lives after 9-11 as a result of the events of 9-11? No proof. no evidence. Worse case of this would be 20k lives including civilian death tolls in afghanistan, pakistan and Iraq and that's still too high.

A lot more than 20 thousand people have lost their lives in the last 7 years as a result of 9-11. That number is not even close. Nearly FOUR HUNDER THOUSAND Iraqis alone have been killed and that’s not including any other countries! Please do your research. The real number is probably nearing the millions at this point.


Originally posted by amazing
I don't post this because I'm a debunking. it's like saying that every living person is either liberal or conservative, or democrat or republican.. most people fall in the middle of these generalizations. I just want the truth. That does not make me a truther. I don't want a label. What I have are questions about 9-11 that don't seem to add up and lots of evidence that the events as depicted actually happened and lots of evidence that something else happened.

the response to this post by "truthers" will be that I need to open my eyes. and the debunkers will say the same thing. stop being delusional and grasping at things that aren't there.
regardless of what stance you’re going to take, gain as much knowledge as you can and try to share that knowledge if you believe it to be true.

[edit on 2/28/2009 by JPhish]



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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Good Reply and thanks!

Let me just say that there are tons of threads here and websites and articles and it's too much to sift through, this is giving me some starting points.

back to the points.

1. You say that no one was hijacked and that if planes did strike the buildings that there was no one inside. This is a theory that I've seen before going something like. the planes landed all pasengers were let off and executed and either the planes struck the buildings or the planes were destroyed and missles were used. Were would the people go and what of the hijackers. they didn't exist or were in a different location and terminated?

2. So you're saying that none of the 9/11 footage was real? I find that hard to believe or that amateur footage wasn't posted and seen before it was confiscated. Is there any of that?

3. So those dancing Israeli nationals that were extradited back to their country mistakenly thought that there was a fireworks show going on? Look i nto who those Israeli men were --give me a brief summary of this i'm not familiar with this theory.

4/5/6.. all related points. what agencies in Isreal/britan and usa were involved? Just a brief list please and then why would they do this? I can see a small powerful group--say illuminati type group who had a lot to gain by wars in Iraq and afghanistan but how does that help israel or britan?

7. Where were these calls origanated then and what proof is there and furthermore are you saying as I've seen before that the calls were faked? I don't believe that is possible.

8. read what I wrote? I agree I dont' write the clearest and my spelling leaves a lot to be desired but.. I think what I wrote was that it is feasable that a passport aboard an aircraft that crashed into a building could be blown free or scattered in the explosion as where thousands(millions?) of papers and documents during or after the WTT collapses.



9. what is this 9/11 script and 9/11 CR? what does it have to do with impaled taxi cabs. that seems like and improbability and hard to pull off even with the most skilled hollywood stunt and special effects team.

10. Ok lets say all of the prvious points are true. That means that bin laden might not have been involved at all and could still be hiding out in the mountains of pakistan.

11. I agree. what is the status of anyone trying to get that footage released both personal footage or pentagon footage?

12. do you have any links or articles about all footage of 9/11 being filmed by professionals?

13. I don't believe that 400k Iraqis have died since 9/11. Give me a source or refutable link. (Not calling you a liar, I just need proof)

I'm looking for knowledge here. Thanks JPhish for taking the time to respond.



posted on Feb, 28 2009 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by kiwifoot
 


Good thoughts!!

I myself had the same questions, and I posted a few hypothesis in previous threads that I thought might explain these things that "don't make sense.'"

The thread that I started is here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

You have to wade through a lot of stuff before I get to the details that deal with the issues that you brought up in this post, but I theorized that 9/11 was planned and carried out by a rogue black ops group that was trying to accomplish many things on 9/11, including:

1. The beginnings of a secret military coup;

2. Framing the US government; setting it all up in a way that the world would be swayed to believe that the US government (elected officials) were involved in planning and carrying out the events on 9/11

3 Giving the US government, in broad daylight, a demonstration of the types of weapons this rogue black ops group has their hands on and what they are capable of doing. (One of the main points on that issue is to see Dr. Judy Woods website, www.drjudywoods.com). It was much more than a controlled demolition that brought down the WTC towers that day. Much more.

They did it in broad day light because they wanted 9/11 to be a demonstration of power, plan and simple. They wanted to show that THEY are in control now. But they also wanted to do it in a way that would clearly implicate the US in attacking their own country, in order to get the US people to start to think badly about their government.

This way, they now have also started a psy ops operation against the US, now, too, so now the US has two fronts to contend with; the rouge secret black ops group, and the US people who will want to bring down their govenrment because they now think that they are behind the attacks on 9/11. (Not to even mention, Afghanistan and Iraq.)

And, the US can't defend themselves by telling the truth (that a rogue black ops government planned it all and carried it out), becasue if they told the truth, they would have to tell the world about all our secret government weapons systems, and how they got away from them. And if they admitted that, the world would probably attack us or demand a complete dismantling of all our secret weapons systems.

So, if my hypothesis is true; it's a perfect "set up". There's no way to win or defend themselves, because they've been hiding so many lies.

4. I also theorized that the bailouts were actually a ransom to extract money from the US government, to prevent another 9/11 type of event from happening, which explains why the bailouts are being rushed through with very little time, thought, or consideration.

Because there is no way to defend themselves without giving up all their secrets, they agree to the "bail out" ransoms and hope to keep it a secret to where all the trillions of unaccounted money went to.

At least, that's MY theory!








[edit on 28-2-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 28-2-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 28-2-2009 by nikiano]



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by amazing
1.You say that no one was hijacked and that if planes did strike the buildings that there was no one inside. This is a theory that I've seen before going something like. the planes landed all pasengers were let off and executed and either the planes struck the buildings or the planes were destroyed and missles were used. Were would the people go and what of the hijackers. they didn't exist or were in a different location and terminated?
I’m not going to presume how they were taken off the planes or what happened to them afterwards. All that I know is that they were not on those planes because they made the phone calls. As far as the hijackers go, they’re not real in any traditional sense.


Originally posted by amazing
2. So you're saying that none of the 9/11 footage was real? I find that hard to believe or that amateur footage wasn't posted and seen before it was confiscated. Is there any of that?
the only reason you find it hard to believe is because you’re not seeing the obvious. No amateur videos of the planes hitting the towers ever reached the public because there were no amateur videos of the planes hitting the buildings. It would be impossible because it didn’t happen. Even if the planes did hit the towers, at the speeds they were purportedly flying, no one, unless they had Spiderman reflexes would have been able to catch it on camera without pre-knowledge of the event. The only “cameras” that were confiscated “officially” were the cameras at the gas station and hotel adjacent to the pentagon. All the “footage” released to the public, although real, is doctored.


Originally posted by amazing
3.give me a brief summary of this i'm not familiar with this theory.

I’m not even sure if it’s a theory. I just remember a report on the news about Israeli nationals celebrating in New York City when the towers were burning. I also recall them being extradited soon after. The situation reeks to high heaven, but again, I don’t presume to know the details.


Originally posted by amazing
4/5/6.. all related points. what agencies in Isreal/britan and usa were involved? Just a brief list please and then why would they do this? I can see a small powerful group--say illuminati type group who had a lot to gain by wars in Iraq and afghanistan but how does that help israel or britan?
I suppose I’m seeing it like a pointillist painting. I see a bunch of little dots (inferences) and when I take a step back I see the whole picture. It would be exhausting for me to explain each point to you. I simply see a connection.


Originally posted by amazing
7. Where were these calls origanated then and what proof is there and furthermore are you saying as I've seen before that the calls were faked? I don't believe that is possible.

It’s possible the calls were faked with voice changers, but I don’t think they were. I think it is more probable that the “callers” sounded disingenuous because they were instructed to say certain lines.


Originally posted by amazing
8. I think what I wrote was that it is feasable that a passport aboard an aircraft that crashed into a building could be blown free or scattered in the explosion as where thousands(millions?) of papers and documents during or after the WTT collapses.
possible, but highly unlikely.


Originally posted by amazing
9. what is this 9/11 script and 9/11 CR? what does it have to do with impaled taxi cabs. that seems like and improbability and hard to pull off even with the most skilled hollywood stunt and special effects team.
9-11 script is the story the media sold everyone. The 9-11 Commission Report stated that the media was telling the truth. Both insisted that a taxi cab was impaled by a light pole as a result of a plane hitting into it. This did not happen.


Originally posted by amazing
10. Ok lets say all of the prvious points are true. That means that bin laden might not have been involved at all and could still be hiding out in the mountains of Pakistan.
possibly, butagain, unlikely. More than likely he’s dead and has been for years.


Originally posted by amazing
11. I agree. what is the status of anyone trying to get that footage released both personal footage or pentagon footage?
like I said, only videos officially confiscated were the security cameras which were observing the pentagon instance. I’m not aware of any genuine personal footage that attempted to leak out or was confiscated.


Originally posted by amazing
12. do you have any links or articles about all footage of 9/11 being filmed by professionals?
all of the footage was, just look at the names of the people the footage is credited to. Google their names and their websites will pop up. Film students, 3d rendering artists, documentary filmmakers; all of them were pros.


Originally posted by amazing
13. I don't believe that 400k Iraqis have died since 9/11. Give me a source or refutable link. (Not calling you a liar, I just need proof)
here you are
en.wikipedia.org...
As you can see, these numbers are even higher but I tend take the average because it’s normally closer to the truth; half a million causalities sounds about right.


Originally posted by amazing
I'm looking for knowledge here. Thanks JPhish for taking the time to respond.

You’re very welcome. Best of luck in your pursuits.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 07:03 AM
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reply to post by nikiano
 


very interesting nikiano.

very interesting indeed.

time to get to work on a novel, i sense a best seller.



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by nikiano
 


Thanks for your reply...that is exactly what I was after..some constructive opinions and sugestions...instead of all the bickering back and forth!

Will check out the thread you supplied....again thanks!



posted on Mar, 1 2009 @ 06:24 PM
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Thanks, JPhish and Kiwifoot-

Actually, to tell you the truth, although I never even thought of putting it into a book format when I came up with the idea, enough people here on ATS have told told me "You need to write a book about that!" and so I finally am. (One of the moderators even asked if he could use my thread in one of his newsletters, and I said yes.)

So...I am actually working on putting my ideas into a novel, or even a screenplay idea. Hmmm...you never know! My hobby of coming up with conspiracy theories could actually pay off someday! LOL!

You know, I just thought of something...ATS should start their own e-book publishing company, to promote and market the best theories that pop up on this website.

The marketing tag line could be: "They gave birth to their idea on ATS....now come take a look at their ideas all grown up!"

Ok....back to writing. And theorizing.
















[edit on 1-3-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 1-3-2009 by nikiano]





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