There are two opposing views in the sidelines of this debate.

One is that the masses are the lowest denominator and the excellence is in the leadership. This is the OP's view. Anyone who gets ahead is ahead.

The second is that mankind is the virtue and the slavedrivers are the pathology. That the elites are psychopathic in their calous lack of emotion and predatory behaviour. That is my view, as can be read about in the last two links of my sig.

Being awake is seeing humanity for what it really is, which is good loving people being oppressed by selfish egoistic people. That is the reality of awakeness, seeing the slave system and denying it. Accepting it is not being awake, it's being a co-conspiritor in the enslavement of the human spirit.

What this thread is in reality is mind manipulation, an attempt to make people who want to wake up, because the current situation hurts them, instead fall back into the babylonian slave system, reabsorbed as slave drivers. Just because you hold the whip dosen't mean you're free. Just because you're a prison guard dosen't mean you spend any less time in prison. It's just a little bit easier, but still a worthless godless pitifull way of life.

This is what the OP has fooled himself into believing. That he is free. In reality he's as big a slave as the people his ego is belittleing.

Being awake is to see the evil among us and to realise it's not all of us, it's a dysfunctional percentile. Being awake is to realise there is a thermodynamics to emotion, to realise that love is energy and fear is void. Being awake is to realise there is a direction in life to be taken, from a emotional low energy state to an emotional high energy state, from fear to love.

And this thread dosen't even get on the road.

Chiao Bambino, I'm done with this negativity.

Being awake is to see the evil among us and to realise it's not all of us, it's a dysfunctional percentile. Being awake is to realise there is a thermodynamics to emotion, to realise that love is energy and fear is void. Being awake is to realise there is a direction in life to be taken, from a emotional low energy state to an emotional high energy state, from fear to love.

And this thread dosen't even get on the road.

Chiao Bambino, I'm done with this negativity.

Well said! I don't agree, naturally, but in my circles one applauds a nice use of words whether or not what those words signify is true. You remind me of my favorite book, Gravity's Rainbow, which also gets things thoroughly, resolutely, beautifully, wrong.

The Preterite and the Elect are and always will be separate. The preterite, the sleeping, the cattle, they're doomed. The irony is they will never be able to understand the noble words you use and they'd tear you apart if you tried to make them see.

The imagery of standing at the whiphandle end of slavery is lovely but melodramatic. In truth, the uninitiated and slumbering are not "slaves" or, if they are, they don't resent their role unless they have become spoiled and developed unearned egos. Some have, and this will have to be corrected in the near future.

When stability and sanity attain, however, we will have the best system ever devised. It's the system encoded on our DNA, the system of the natural aristocracy. The Gold shall have dominion over the Silver who have dominion over the bronze....

And none of it is ungentle or ugly or vicious once the growing pains subside. All shall simply be truly and completely well.

I agree with Zepherian completely.

But I've got to say, I also agree with the OP in that, if you see yourself as being among a group of people that is "awake" and look down on those with different views and opinions than you have, and you categorize these "dissenters" as "asleep", then you neither owe them anything nor do you have any business trying to change them into being someone who believes and thinks the same way that you do.

All those people that you categorize as "awake" and "asleep" are all just people with different views, opinions and priorities in life, to which they are completely entitled, and none is better than the next. This "awake" and "asleep" business is nothing more than divisive rhetoric to separate us, which is impossible.

I used to think I was "awake". But then I got over myself.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

I personally try and wake people up for two reasons:

1) I am compelled to do it, it's a natural drive, and it feels good.
2) I believe if we don't reach a critical mass of aware people we will be in a far worse state then if we don't.

Much will happen in the next 18 months, some of it will seem terrifying

May I ask how you know this? What do you expect to hppen over the next year and a half?

Originally posted by Tentickles
The thing is that even though we have wings to soar on, if we did those around us would weigh us down and cause us to crash with great force

I am gravely ashamed in admitting and confirming that your feelings are right about this. It happened to me over and over again.

Through my own harsh experiences, everything I have built has been, stolen or destroyed even my body, and the distortion of my character and integrity followed.

I never lost my light, or my true nature and my creativity always managed to keep me going.


My family was jealous, abusive and greedy - and to this day they are still saying that I was the being with most grace and wisdom they have ever encountered. Still I must leave them behind until I can recover from the damages they and others have caused to my basic survival and because they are still addicted to hurting others.

Who or whatever threatens our own basic needs and impedes our development is dangerous, and should be avoided at all cost. Especially the guilt we are made to carry.

your'e right little sister(?) stick with us, I don't know you but do I like your thoughts, and I want you to soar!




[edit on 28-2-2009 by HulaAnglers]

There are many people who aren't interested in being awake or knowing the truth - whatever awake and truth actually means. The majority of people moan and complain a lot but they don't actually do anything to change their situation. Most will say they can't do whatever and that it's someone else's fault. Bottom line - people don't want to take responsibility for their own lives. Maybe they do want to but they don't know how and really can't be bothered to learn.

I see it all the time - I emigrated from the UK to Spain and yes, it's been very difficult at times but we were determined to break away from life in England. We've seen people move here, not have regular work/wage and just move back - they give up so easily. They want a regular job with a regular wage and a timetable to live to. They really don't know how to function away from their usual routine which has been ingrained into them - school, job, career, finance, mortgage, rinse and repeat. At least they try and at least they want to break free but they really don't know how.

Other people complain to us how much they envy us moving here and they wish they could but they can't because ? ? ? (fill in with as many excuses as you can think of). We are no different to those people. We could've come up with numerous excuses too.

We all have to take responsibility for ourselves and then we are capable of helping those around us that reach out a hand. All 3 of my children are taught to take responsibility for their own actions - good and bad. They're also taught to take care of themselves first because they won't be any help to anyone if they don't. Not in a selfish manner, just look out for number one so you can actually be in a position to help others that want help.

We tried helping many expats that moved here but we don't bother now. Most think they already know it all anyway and just don't want to listen. If someone genuinly wants our help, we'll give it willingly but the sad truth is most people really do believe they already know it all.

If everyone took responsibility for themselves then things might be different in the world. Most people complain but don't really want to have to think for themselves or take responsibility. It's easier to have to go to work at set hours, put their kids in school for set hours, etc, etc.

I don't believe I'm 'awake' I just believe in take responsibility for my own life. Doesn't mean I know it all either but I'm always prepared to ask questions and hear the answers. Doesn't mean I'll act on the answer but I'll consider the opinion. Ultimately it's up to me. If I'm not doing what makes me happy how can I be any good for my children? If I'm not doing what makes me happy how can I be any good around anyone?

I believe in being the best I can be and everyone else should be the best they can be too but they really just can't be bothered. It's sad but why should I be bothered about them if they're not bothered enough to try and change things themselves?

Hope I don't sound cold hearted as I'm not a cold hearted person but it's definitely 'me first' for me.

Edit to add - people do prefer to be able to blame the problems in their lives on someone/something else. If they actually take responsibility and do what they really want then who can they blame when it goes wrong? That's why most people stick to routine and they probably don't even know it. Safety or freedom and the unknown? Safety wins every time for the majority of people. They stick with what they know even if they don't like it because it's safe and therefore they value safety more than freedom.

[edit on 28-2-2009 by Maya00a]

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd
as was mentioned before we cant do this on our own. we need to wake the sheeple up, the problem is how. i dont think leaving them to their own devices is helpful they are too distracted with the rat race to care about the subtle mysteries of life. having said that i am also sick of trying to wake people up.

BUT at the end of the day we all have a part to play an i truly believe mine is that of the teacher. i will try to wake as many people as i can. and i have at least reached a few and made them think. if i can influence someones life in a positive manner then my existence on this planet has not been for naught.

whats the point of flying if you have no where to go and no one to fly with.

feel sympathy for the blind heard, for all you know the person you save might be your savior one day.

i have been given a choice and i choose to stay and help.

running away is the cowards choice

You can't awaken them.
They suffer from sleep-paralysis.

Originally posted by Zepherian
This just in: university mind slave tries to justify the status quo. Other university mind slaves agree with him.

This thread is nothing but a pathetic ego infused atempt to justify selfishness. The OP is probably feeling dead inside, having lost the true meaning of his humanity.

People, that are people, owe it to each other to help the community. People, that are parasites (and here we have most of the supposedly 'higher educated') just leech off the system.

Here's the shocker, if your philosophy wins your world will die too. Because parasites can't survive without the host they invariably kill. If the NWO order scenario wins it won't last 1000 years, the tyranny will be so great it will collapse under it's own evil in just a few short generations. You cannot build a civilization on selfishness, it's a negative energy, it consumes. Just looking around with open eyes shows this. That the OP can't see it makes me think he's not as awake as he thinks he is, just leaning towards the dark side because it makes him feel better than everyone else, which is one of the root psychological problems of the current social meltdown.

If the NWO wins then we're back to rubbing sticks together.

Sorry for the harsh words, but you're grasping at straws here.

Touche my intelligent friend.

I don't believe we're all as "awake" as we like to think. Some of us believe that since we see what's going on behind the scenes of our government we're "awake". Sorry people, your simply reprogramming yourselves and driving your new program with already learned beliefs. To be truly awake you need to shed these negative beliefs and programming, and look at what's going on behind the scenes of your own mind.

Not that i'm "awake", but it is my understanding that by helping other people we also help ourselves. Not that most people are ready to "see the light", but while they're still slaves, they're working for "them".

To Manganese:

"The Preterite and the Elect are and always will be separate. The preterite, the sleeping, the cattle, they're doomed. The irony is they will never be able to understand the noble words you use and they'd tear you apart if you tried to make them see."

This is clearly your basic assumption. Unfortunately, it is an assumption which, as far as I am aware, has not been supported by either empirical or a priori evidence. Nevertheless, you have developed for yourself a nice neat little ethical system in which you (who are presumably "awakened") are the one who receives the most benefits from the system.

Of course, the fact that you receive the greatest benefits from the ethical system does not entail that the connection is not incidental. But if no evidence can be found which can actually support your claim that some persons are substantially different than others, then this ethical system ought to be relinquished as dubious in motivation.

So tell me, Manganese, why do you think that some persons are substantially different from others? My experience is not sufficient to warrant a belief that there is a certain sector of society that simply cannot understand me. Though I have met dense and zombie-like persons, I have seen absolutely no evidence that the zombie-hood is not caused by poor upbringing.

This substantial distinction between the awake and the asleep, of course, assumes an answer to the famous modern argument between nature and nurture. If being asleep is all nurture, then there is no substantial difference between the awake and the asleep, and all persons can be awakened. On the other hand, if being asleep is a natural state -- a DNA problem, if you will -- then the only the "elect" can be awakened.

So what makes this ethical system dubious?

Well, presumably one can only awaken if one is first asleep. Thus, the OP must accept that the "elect" and the "preterite" are in the same state prior to the awakening of the elect. The difference between the two is that the preterite have no possibility of awakening.

How does one know the difference between a sleeping elect and a preterite? What if a sleeping elect person awakens when she is 80 years old? Suppose that this sleeping elect woman lived a life of poverty and brutality, and when she finally awakened, discovered that she has been wrongly treated like a preterite all her life. How will we justify the injustice we have wrought upon her for 80 years?

Manganese, what you are suggesting is a caste-system which is implausible. It is implausible for two reasons: (1) The distinction between "asleep" and "awake" is defined by those who claim to be awake, but there isn't even agreement about who is awake and what it means to be awake at all. For these reasons, your distinction is much too vague to build a plausible political system around. (2) There is no guarantee that the creme will eventually rise to the top. The reason for this is that those who are awake do not know who are elect and who are not. Thus, they are vitually guaranteed to accidentally treat an elect as a preterite. And this has been seen in the world today: banks and corporate behemoths regularly cheat and mislead persons without even bothering to find out whether they are awake or asleep.

I'm sorry manganase, but the only plausible political ethics is one which assumes that all persons have the same basic capabilities, but whose capabilities differ only in quantity, not quality.

PriamsPride

I'm sorry manganase, but the only plausible political ethics is one which assumes that all persons have the same basic capabilities, but whose capabilities differ only in quantity, not quality.

Political ethics is an oxymoron.
For instance, democracy has no mechanism to filter honest people from dishonest people. They all have "right" to vote.

I wouldn't call that an ethical system, simply because there is no ethics in democracy.

death is an option for all of us, unfortunately sometimes we arent the ones who decide. it is not at all selfish or ignorant to not feel an obligation to wake the sleeping. most of us have families who we need to wake first. take care of your loved ones first. the info is right in front of all of us. just like there are jobs out there. its everyones own decision to wake up. i can call my friend to wake him in the morning, but if he decides hes too tired and rolls over, it aint my fault he was late for work. get an alarm clock. my alarm clock went off at 9:47 am 9/11/2001 and i havent been able to roll over and fall back to sleep. hopefully, i wont be late for work. but i may get a flat on the way, could be traffic. who knows. but alot of us are waking up. everyone is put here with a purpose. some are teachers. im not, but if someone asks me to show em how to rebuild a carburetor ill show em. but i have no desire to instruct for a living. thatis a gift i wasnt born with.

The problem is very simple: You can't impose awakening onto someone.
Use force to awaken them? Spill water on them?

I am ready to talk and show what I know, but am I supposed to go out in the street and drag people by their sleeves?

Sorry, but I am not buying this quasi-ethical "reasoning".

One has to awaken himself, then he may look for the others and learn from them. It is the only way.

DangerDeath:

Political ethics is not an oxymoron, so long as you detach the word "ethics" from the particular ethical systems usually used. An ethics is nothing more than a pattern for action. As such, all political entities have an ethics (otherwise they'd collapse under their own incoherence).

It seems to me that you are complaining that governments do not follow your ethical system. What you need to keep in mind is that there are ethical systems which are not the same as yours, and these often inform governments.

Anything that reasons and acts has an ethics, and this includes institutions.