America - A Christian Nation... wait... what?

We've all heard this one before: "America is a Christian Nation!"
But what, exactly, does "Christian Nation" mean?

Is it:

1) A majority of Americans are Christian.

or

2) America was founded on Christian principles by men who intended America to be a Christian Nation.

The first is quiet obvious to anyone... Somewhere between 70% - 80% of Americans consider themselves Christians. However, it means nothing. Our country could be considered a "Pepsi Nation" simply because many people pick it over coke. But our government and the laws that support it do not favor Christianity OR Pepsi.

The second is the one that we hear about most - the one that sparks controversy, so it's what I'll be discussing.

If you ask someone who supports the idea of America being a Christian Nation why they support it, you will usually be met with quotes from founding fathers (the select few who were Christian, of course) and sometimes a 'fun fact' or two, such as "George Washington's dog attended church for 'x' amount of years".
So... what does that mean?
Nothing.
It distracts from the question at hand - was our government meant to favor Christian ideals?
Nowhere in the Constitution is Christianity even mentioned...
Our governments purpose is to secure our freedoms, not to spout opinions.
So most people will go back to the quotes - as if there was some hidden intention which was not (but of course should be) engraved in our government.

Some of the founding fathers were Christian, yes, but most were Deists.
In fact, many of the quotes you will see used in favor of America being a Christian Nation are taken out of context - founding fathers who believed in God in the deistic sense who in no way believed in the Bible or Christianity.
Many of the founding fathers explicitly state that our country was not founded on religion but FREEDOM of religion.
In fact, several founding fathers seemed very much against Christianity (Thomas Jefferson comes to mind).

So do our laws agree with Christianity?
Do not kill & do not steal are in the 10 commandments... But they are also in many religious texts such as the Egyptian book of the dead - and should be obvious regardless of religion.

There is no legitimate reason to believe that America is a Christian Nation.

For those who still have doubts:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"
- The Treaty of Tripoli

It was not in anyway based on the church. The founding fathers were like me. I am huge fans of the founding fathers and I've made your argument before(although not here).

They believed in a society of liberty and freedom, and that is actually what Jesus was all about it. And so that is what it was built on.

The Jefferson Bible is a good example of this.

www.angelfire.com...

Most people don't realize it, but Jesus is actually a huge proponent for separation of church and state, contrary to the writings of Paul and his political appeal.

So really what it boils down to is this. What does it mean to be a Christian? If by Christian you mean someone who follows the way and wisdom of Jesus, then the answer is yes - it was founded on Christian principles and is a Christian nation. However, if you equate that to mean all the power should go to the church, the state should enforce certain values and so forth, then the answer is no.

And btw, I think revelation 3 and the church of Philadelphia is relevant here.

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Of course, this country was founded in Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love. And while the constitution is constantly under attack, it has been the savior of those without strength and has protected us from the beasts in many ways. And when you look at what David did, he took the undesirables of the world and lead them. And that was also the sentiment towards Americans back then as well. The constitution is something all should hold dear, and it would serve people well to understand how it was actually designed and should be followed, because it is the best protection for the those without strength(power). Many people would love to dump the constitution and close it's door, but they can't. They can only manipulate people into not holding it dear or understanding it.

Small note, where it says "Jews", that also means "Christians". Because back then you weren't called a Christian, you were called a Jew. And a synagogue is a church of course. All these people who call themselves these things, but do not follow the actual path, worship the idol instead are of the synagogue of Satan, and I point that out quite often.

So really, it's a matter of what you think it means to be a Christian nation. Generally the ones who like to call it a Christian nation do so because they are from the synagogue of Satan and want to create another beast like the RCC.

Also, as far as the commandments I am someone who thinks they are on 2 pages for a reason. 1 page I think it is ok to somewhat enforce and protect, and that would be the side that contains do not steal, murder and such. The other side the state has no business in, and that is in terms of loving god and so forth. Generally the people who are against church and state want to enforce all of them.



[edit on 27-2-2009 by badmedia]

Don't forget the Treaty of Tripoli, article 11....

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Treaty of Tripoli

I used to think American was started based on Christianity until just a few months ago and seeing this document.



[edit on 2/27/2009 by Oolon]

Firstly, contrary to what you said, Jefferson was not anti-Christian. His point was that people should place more emphasis on Jesus' teachings rather han his "miracles." I wholeheartedly agree.

Secondly, I agree with what "badmedia" said. If you are asking whether America is Christian in the theocratic sense, the answer is certainly no. Thank all that is good.

Thirdly, to me, it doesn't matter. As long as America has some spiritual principle, which is increasingly becoming questionable, that is all that matters.

reply to post by TruthParadox

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Our country could be considered a "Pepsi Nation" simply because many people pick it over coke. But our government and the laws that support it do not favor Christianity OR Pepsi.

It doesn't? What is up with all this hoohaw about abortion/gay marriages/stem cell research/evolution in schools, then?

America is a democratic nation, and since, as you pointed out, somewhere between 70-80% call themselves Christian, most of the votes, most of the decisions will be having a Christian slant- example: Bush realised most of his voter base were Christian, so he claimed divine backing for most of his decisions.

I realise you are trying your best to prove that the US is not a Christian nation, and theoretically you should be correct.
But you know what the reality is.

[edit on 27-2-2009 by babloyi]

reply to post by TruthParadox


yes. i am a firm believer in Yeshua yet i realize that the founding fathers had no intentions of the US to have a national religion, which the GENIUS founding fathers knew would cause problems.

Let us all consider the fact that this country was established by puritans trying to get away from a religion that did not agree with their principles. in the old country i would have burned at the stake for having red hair, green eyes, and being allergic to silver. in this country, i am not, but as time goes on, i dare not voice my personal views in light of the public lest i am verbally strung up.
if one reads the words on the statue of liberty, it says nothing about having to accept a national God in order to become an American. the truest premise of being a christian, muslim, jew, hindi, buddist, or any enlightened spirit is the concept of compassion and love without consideration to race, wealth, or creed. those who would besmear the Word of any Holy Book are those who give religion a bad name, and should not be heeded. This country was founded with the idea of compassion and opportunity for ALL people, regardless. In the end, that is how we need live, in order to be true Americans.

Of course Christianity is just a label.

Actually, OT did a thread on this very topic a few months ago.

reply to post by TruthParadox


They say Ignorance is bliss, ATS says Deny Ignorance.

A Christian Nation would by definition be a Theocracy, we live in a Constitutional Republic....

Built upon the precepts of Jesus Christ, just ask Adams, Hamilton, Hancock, etc. etc..

As Adams said our Constitutional system would only serve a moral christian people and would be wholly inadequate for any other society. And lest we forget, those who will not be governed by GOD, will be ruled by tyrants.

Where are we on that scale I wonder? My opinion could come from the front pages of this boards threads. Fema Camps, Government Coverups, Cops beating teenage girls in jail cells, etc etc.

Originally posted by badmedia
So really what it boils down to is this. What does it mean to be a Christian? If by Christian you mean someone who follows the way and wisdom of Jesus, then the answer is yes - it was founded on Christian principles and is a Christian nation. However, if you equate that to mean all the power should go to the church, the state should enforce certain values and so forth, then the answer is no.

But many of our founders didn't follow "the way and wisdom of Jesus".
Many of them thought just as I do - that Jesus had some good teachings but should not be looked at as the son of God (which was one of the main messages that Jesus taught - if you don't accept me than you don't accept God etc). I feel similar about Buddha, and I'm sure most Americans would find truth in his words - but does that make us a Buddhist Nation?
If anything, we are a Deist Nation, as most of the founding fathers were deists.
But in truth, we are meant to be a free Nation. One that does not judge by religion or belief but by action - this in itself is completely contradictory to what Christianity is - which DOES judge by belief and NOT by action.

Christianity: It doesn't matter what good you do in your life if you don't believe in Jesus.
America: It doesn't matter what you believe in as long as you don't break the laws or do harm to others.

They completely contradict one another.

reply to post by TruthParadox


You either A. Don't understand the bible, or B. Only understand what Christians say, in which case refer to A.

Do you know what it means to believe for the very works sake?

John 14

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Now tell me, is this not what the founding fathers did by following his teachings? Does this verse not directly say it doesn't matter if you actually "believe" in Jesus as a son of god?

Anyone can believe for the very works sake, it just means you keep the commandments because you can see how this is needed for a peaceful society.

This is the least one can do, so it is something all should do. So when you see people talking about believing in Jesus and not talking about actually walking the path then you know they are not true.

You honestly do not know what the stuff means. If you can't tell the difference between what Jesus actually says and the claims Christians make, then how can you debate the topic correctly? All you are doing is taking the general stuff you hear and debating that, completely judging it all based on that, rather than what is given.

1 day you will realize that those who call themselves Christians are of the synagogue(church) of Satan. And if you ever realize that, then you might start to understand what is so special about Jesus and the knowledge/wisdom contained and how he would actually be on your side of things.


[edit on 28-2-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by babloyi


That's true.
But that doesn't mean that our founding fathers intended America to be Christian.
The governments allegiance is to the people - and as you said, the majority will agree with Christian values.
However, the governments allegiance is NOT to the religion of Christianity.
There's a big difference.
And the reality of it is that even though 70% - 80% of Americans are Christian, many still believe that gay marriage is acceptable and evolution should be taught in schools.

reply to post by theindependentjournal


You're talking about the personal opinion of a few men.
I could do the same on the contrary side, but I chose not to...





reply to post by badmedia



You ignored the point I was making.
You are saying that our nation is Christ-like in some ways.
Maybe.
But our Nation could also be said to be Buddha-like in several ways.
But we are neither a Christian or Buddhist nation.

Christianity is a religion - one which believes that you must accept Jesus as your savior to be born again and know God.
America's laws and government does not hold the same message, as America's message is freedom of religion.

Saying that our nation is a (insert religion here) Nation is directly contradictory to the main message OF our nation which is that we are free to decide for ourselves.

"America is a Christian Nation" - is a contradictory statement to everything America claims to be.

"America is a free Nation" - is the accurate statement.

reply to post by TruthParadox


I don't call it a christian country. I thought I made myself pretty clear on what the differences were. It's not based on the church, so it is not a "christian" nation. But it was founded on principles that can be attributed to the way of Jesus.

Have others said the same thing? Yes. So what. If you want to say it was based on the principles of Buddha or whoever, then it's a matter of what those principles are. If they are the same, then it is. If they aren't, they it's not.

That some Christians claim exclusivity to morality is beside the point and not the topic of the thread. If that is the debate you want, then make a topic about that. Either way, it is in fact based on the same principles of Jesus in terms of freedom and liberty.

I posted this in a similar ATS topic. I thought my points were topical for this thread.

Bill Maher had an incredible monologue at the end of his new documentary film, "Religulous". Please watch that film, and tell me that government and religion is a good thing.

Here's the ending for the lazy folk. It may seem somewhat out of context without the rest of the film... please rent it or torrent it if you have a can: www.youtube.com...

I'm very angry about the blurring of these lines over the recent history of the U.S. "In God we trust" was just adopted to our money in the 50s as a propaganda tool for the cold war. This is definitely NOT a founding fathers principle.

Benjamin Franklin:

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

Thomas Jefferson:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."


"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."

"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."
- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820

John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Originally posted by Avarus
Bill Maher had an incredible monologue at the end of his new documentary film, "Religulous". Please watch that film, and tell me that government and religion is a good thing.

Yeah I saw that lol. Great movie .

Originally posted by Avarus
I'm very angry about the blurring of these lines over the recent history of the U.S. "In God we trust" was just adopted to our money in the 50s as a propaganda tool for the cold war. This is definitely NOT a founding fathers principle.

Funny you should say that about the 50s, because my parents were in school around that time, and they've told me several times how they were taught the "ties between America and Christianity" and how America was "meant to be a Christian Nation". Now these same people are in their 50's/ 60's and still buy all the propaganda.
I wonder if it is part of a larger conspiracy - "In God We Trust" really means "In the politicians who claim to be God fearing Christians - we Trust".
It makes government more of a religious monster than a thing with any substance.
And it holds true to this day. No non-Christian could even hope to be President. They know they have to 'play the game'.

Also, going back to Religulous, Bill Maher was interviewing some elected official, and it was painfully obvious that he didn't know what he was talking about and was only trying to appease both sides. I also strongly doubt that Obama is a Christian... He just knows how to play the game like any other actor/politician.

reply to post by TruthParadox


It goes back to what I said before. If you notice I am always against such institutions, but yet I do hold the principles themselves dear.

When they try to equate it to being a "Christian Nation", then it's a matter of how they are trying to do so. If that is meant to say that the church and the way of the church itself is what it was founded on, then it is false.

And what you see in the money with in god we trust and so forth is not based on the principles, but on the church and as an establishment of religion, which is against the first amendment.

This is what is called idol building. By getting people to make such equations, they will deem and feel whatever the government does is by default good. And recent history is a good example of this.

But you've got to be able to separate and understand the difference. You've got to understand and separate those who do something in the name of something, and those who do something in line with the principles of that something.

Separation of church and state was not done to kill religion. Quite the opposite. It was done to give freedom of religion to people. If you establish a religion for the country, then you have in effect taken away the freedom of everyone, even those who get the religion they belong too. Which they will quickly find out if they ever changed their mind.

BTW, did Bill find or talk to any gnostic in his movie?

If you can't see and understand these differences and manipulations, then how do you expect to see and understand any future manipulations?

Originally posted by badmedia
Separation of church and state was not done to kill religion. Quite the opposite. It was done to give freedom of religion to people. If you establish a religion for the country, then you have in effect taken away the freedom of everyone, even those who get the religion they belong too. Which they will quickly find out if they ever changed their mind.

That was my initial point.
This is not a Christian bashing thread, just a statement of facts - America was not mean to be a Christian Nation.
You have argued that it is (in some ways) a Christ-like Nation.
I don't care to argue against that because that was not my point - it's another debate entirely. I'm discussing the religion known as Christianity.

Originally posted by badmedia
BTW, did Bill find or talk to any gnostic in his movie?

By gnostic you mean anyone of any faith who claims to know there is a god?
He interviews many people of many faiths who claim to know.
From the loons to the fundies to the faithful.

Originally posted by badmedia
If you can't see and understand these differences and manipulations, then how do you expect to see and understand any future manipulations?

I understand what you're saying, but it's not the argument I presented.
I'm specifically talking about the Christian religion - which you yourself have agreed America is not founded on - that was the only point I was making.