Soldier doubts ( Obama's) eligibility, defies president's orders

reply to post by 5thElement

Like refusing to fire on American citizens if so ordered?

reply to post by skeptic_al


That would INDEED be funny I suppose, but this guy DEFINITELY does not fit that definition, Birth certificate aside. So far he has voted for all of the same special-interests that have helped run our country into the ground as the previous regimes have. His campaign promises, just like all the rest of them are nothing more than BS and illusions to hornswaggle the gullible sheeples for a few more years.

Originally posted by HomeBrew
As a former military member, you absolutely do NOT have authority to challenge ANY order. You HAVE to obey them, and complain afterwards if needed. This is how the U.S. millitary works. Even if you were right, you'd still be frowned upon by not following the order. Sounds ass backwards, but it's how the millitary is run. There in ZERO tollerance for disobeying orders, errant or otherwise. You can dislike the rules but it's still the same.

Having said that, I fully believe if Obama did not have and provide a proper birth certificate, he would not be president now. There were many rich, powerful and resourceful people who would of ate this up if there was any legitimacy to it. Bottom line is he is president, the 'proof' was obtained by thoes who needed it, and this tool questioning it should be court marshalled and sent packing for his ignorant, and most likely politically motivated slur's towards the commander and cheif of the USA.

Thats not true. I'm also former military and it is up to the duty of the soldier to make sure he is following Geneva Conventions and so on, and if they are given an order which goes against it, then it is their duty to refuse to do so. I guess you missed that class during basic? I did OSAT, but I still got that class.

It is only lawful orders that have to be followed etc.

And those laws are pretty strick. Right down to what kind of ammo is acceptable against a certain target(unless you are reduced to only that type of round). For example, it is considered overkill and a warcrime if you used the main gun on a M1 for the purpose of killing a single person, as you could use a coax and such instead.

Now, if you want to get right down to it, it's a bit of smoke and mirrors no doubt about it. If you speak up against such things, you will likely find yourself in trouble, if not shot in the back of the head(legal for desertion in times of war). As the lawyers will just come in and find some loophole that made it "lawful". But they are supposed to follow what I mentioned above, and are briefed to that effect at one time or another.

So it's a matter of what is legal and illegal orders. And the final word as far as the authority and protection for those who serve is the constitution. Some people like to make out that people in the military know and understand the constitution, but in my experience they don't. I didn't know it anything like I do now when I served and it never was an issue. But I served under Clinton which was a few years back and before all this stuff was so "in your face".

reply to post by 5thElement


Human soldiers have the moral judgment to question the validity of their CINC's orders than their futuristic robotic counterparts, therefore they can determine whether their CINC is making the right choice or not.

Originally posted by badmedia
And those laws are pretty strick. Right down to what kind of ammo is acceptable against a certain target(unless you are reduced to only that type of round). For example, it is considered overkill and a warcrime if you used the main gun on a M1 for the purpose of killing a single person, as you could use a coax and such instead.

No flames against you, badmedia, I'm only using your quote as an example.

The more I read about these military laws, the more I am convinced that they were written by comedians.

So it's legal to kill a person with a rifle round, but not with a round from a M1. Would a grenade be illegal to use against a single person? What if that person is hiding behind a large tree stump?

If your enemy charges you with a sword, do you have to draw your own sword to attack them, as it will be illegal to shoot them with a gun?

Dave Mustaine (Megadeth) said it best: "The military intelligence, two words combined that don't make sense." It's from a song called Hangar 18.

What matters here is TPTB want Obama to be President. They created the situation where he has no where to go but up.

The economy will recover and in four years Obama will be able to say he inherited a nightmare and we are now in recovery because of his policies. That if elected for another four years he will be able to cure EVERYONE'S ills.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by HomeBrew
As a former military member, you absolutely do NOT have authority to challenge ANY order. You HAVE to obey them, and complain afterwards if needed. This is how the U.S. millitary works. Even if you were right, you'd still be frowned upon by not following the order. Sounds ass backwards, but it's how the millitary is run. There in ZERO tollerance for disobeying orders, errant or otherwise. You can dislike the rules but it's still the same.

Having said that, I fully believe if Obama did not have and provide a proper birth certificate, he would not be president now. There were many rich, powerful and resourceful people who would of ate this up if there was any legitimacy to it. Bottom line is he is president, the 'proof' was obtained by thoes who needed it, and this tool questioning it should be court marshalled and sent packing for his ignorant, and most likely politically motivated slur's towards the commander and cheif of the USA.

Thats not true. I'm also former military and it is up to the duty of the soldier to make sure he is following Geneva Conventions and so on, and if they are given an order which goes against it, then it is their duty to refuse to do so. I guess you missed that class during basic? I did OSAT, but I still got that class.

It is only lawful orders that have to be followed etc.

And those laws are pretty strick. Right down to what kind of ammo is acceptable against a certain target(unless you are reduced to only that type of round). For example, it is considered overkill and a warcrime if you used the main gun on a M1 for the purpose of killing a single person, as you could use a coax and such instead.

Now, if you want to get right down to it, it's a bit of smoke and mirrors no doubt about it. If you speak up against such things, you will likely find yourself in trouble, if not shot in the back of the head(legal for desertion in times of war). As the lawyers will just come in and find some loophole that made it "lawful". But they are supposed to follow what I mentioned above, and are briefed to that effect at one time or another.

So it's a matter of what is legal and illegal orders. And the final word as far as the authority and protection for those who serve is the constitution. Some people like to make out that people in the military know and understand the constitution, but in my experience they don't. I didn't know it anything like I do now when I served and it never was an issue. But I served under Clinton which was a few years back and before all this stuff was so "in your face".

When those orders are coming from Washington itself (Donald Rumsfeld anyone?) and you refuse you are either going to jail or going to the grave depending on what and how much you know.

About 2 years before I got out we had orders and our commander didn't want to follow them and tried to defend his/our case and why we shouldn't.

Well he suddenly retired and we were stuck with following through with the original orders. In the end we got to say I told you so, but it didn't matter at that point.

When you get Generals thinking they know everything and start forcing hands that are not a playable option they don't care and will make the hand sound great no matter how bad it actually looks in order to either:

A: Show Off
B: Power Trip
C: Knows it's a bad idea but needs something to put on his resume.

Don't get me wrong we have some great leadership that will go to bat and not back down but just as many try to impress Washington I assume to get a career in politics when they retire from active duty.

Case and point the AirForce had T.O's "Technical Orders" basically told how every piece of equipment operated how to repair it ble print's etc. Some general retiring decided be for he did he want to leave a mark and convinced everyone that the term "Order" was no politically correct.

So he had them change every single page of every TO to be written as an AFI "AirForce Instruction" He actually replaced every page of every TO to say on top of every page AFI instead of TO. I can only guess how much that cost us then. Billions of pages changed I'm sure. I worked with 16 people in a small operations unit and we had well over a million pages worth of TO's who knows what the actual number was.

So ya coming from Washington you do what they say no matter how idiotic it is.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Its unbelievable when you get some here crying about Obama not showing his birth certificate, or the fact you must show your BC to get a job etc. Yet 95% of folks use their short form birth certificate, and as another member said prior, the short form is a shorter copy of the long form. Why the hell do some here insist him to show the same confirmed birth certificate but includes "how he was born", his "weight at birth" and his fathers religion.

This soldier wants to protest against something he "thinks" is unconstitutional, where the hell was he during Iraq where there was actually something unconstitutional going on.



[edit on 24-2-2009 by Southern Guardian]

I agree with you on that one. Where was he during the Iraq war? Raping civilians? Now he wants to come across as a law abiding, flag waving citizen.

lol.

Obama WON. The people have spoken. Get over it. Move on with your life.

No need to cry about it. Just be happy we have 4 more year of the same Bush Shlt..

If you don't like it, you should have voted.... (like that matters). lol

Ron Paul 2012!

Originally posted by Wotan
For a start, Has any other President EVER showed or had to show his Birth Certificate to the American Public?

If the answer is no, then WHY should Obama? To me this stinks of racism and green-eye monster syndrome.

Soldiers have EVERY right to question orders if they believe them to be illegal orders - Ref: The trial of members of the SS at the end of WW2.

Well, since the soldier didn't say anything racist, can't call him one..but, as a black man, I've seen this same kind of passive-aggressive nit-picking directed at me numerous times, and it was ALWAYS someone who had a jealousy/resentment issue. Race may play a part in how far someone takes the issue and how strongly they feel about it, but, since you can't know what's in someone's heart, I'll let the race part go and say this soldier just has issues..if he can't follow the orders of the president, he needs to not be in the military, period.

I think it would be great if Obama would speak to this issue,
and with that wonderful smile and assuring intelligent voice
say -


"I would very much like to put the issue of the legitimacy of my Birth Certificate to rest.
It is obviously a very important issue to many - as it certainly should be.
So here in my hand is my original certificate.
I am happy to know that the American citizens are making sure
that we truly have entered the time of transparency and full disclosure
that I promised and of which we are desperately in need."

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by HomeBrew
As a former military member, you absolutely do NOT have authority to challenge ANY order. You HAVE to obey them, and complain afterwards if needed. This is how the U.S. millitary works. Even if you were right, you'd still be frowned upon by not following the order. Sounds ass backwards, but it's how the millitary is run. There in ZERO tollerance for disobeying orders, errant or otherwise. You can dislike the rules but it's still the same.

Having said that, I fully believe if Obama did not have and provide a proper birth certificate, he would not be president now. There were many rich, powerful and resourceful people who would of ate this up if there was any legitimacy to it. Bottom line is he is president, the 'proof' was obtained by thoes who needed it, and this tool questioning it should be court marshalled and sent packing for his ignorant, and most likely politically motivated slur's towards the commander and cheif of the USA.

Thats not true. I'm also former military and it is up to the duty of the soldier to make sure he is following Geneva Conventions and so on, and if they are given an order which goes against it, then it is their duty to refuse to do so. I guess you missed that class during basic? I did OSAT, but I still got that class.

It is only lawful orders that have to be followed etc.

And those laws are pretty strick. Right down to what kind of ammo is acceptable against a certain target(unless you are reduced to only that type of round). For example, it is considered overkill and a warcrime if you used the main gun on a M1 for the purpose of killing a single person, as you could use a coax and such instead.

Now, if you want to get right down to it, it's a bit of smoke and mirrors no doubt about it. If you speak up against such things, you will likely find yourself in trouble, if not shot in the back of the head(legal for desertion in times of war). As the lawyers will just come in and find some loophole that made it "lawful". But they are supposed to follow what I mentioned above, and are briefed to that effect at one time or another.

So it's a matter of what is legal and illegal orders. And the final word as far as the authority and protection for those who serve is the constitution. Some people like to make out that people in the military know and understand the constitution, but in my experience they don't. I didn't know it anything like I do now when I served and it never was an issue. But I served under Clinton which was a few years back and before all this stuff was so "in your face".

Despite your long winded, condescending(at times) and mostly opinionated post, the fact remains that orders are to be followed, period. This is not hollywood, and in my millitary, even in basic, orders were to be followed without question. They were not guidlines or subject for interpretation. I'm not sure what you were or what you did, but when orders are given, seldome does one have time or the availability to determine if they are against the bylaws of the "Geneva Conventions and so on".

We obviously had different expierences in our armed forces, but mine were outlined with following orders without question. I suppose if you were a office duty clerk or a officer things may be different, but for the working class of the millitary, orders are to be followed without question. This is something instilled in every enlisted member of a fighting force within the united states.

I appreciate your perception of how things are, but it's just not true. Not for me, not for anyone I knew, not for anyone I have ever heard of south of a pressed shirt. Thanks for sharing though.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by HomeBrew]

the guy is just angry
because Obama won and maybe because of its color or politic mather.
this kind of guy are the kind of people who have voted Bush and Mccain
and now that Obama the first black democratic president have won a fair election unlike Bush and Mccain, he wont accept the fact that he have won and now he is the commander in chief,
but people like this are always trying to show to people they are the victim and find a dumb reason to make people to rally with them,
in my point of view Obama is the president long time no see in the oval office, and every american should respect him,trust him,beleive in him

peace

I know nothing about the US way of doing things, but I will say as a Canadian, if my Prime Minister refused to show us his legal birth information, I would suspect he was an impostor or something. And I sure as heck would not be following his orders.

I take showing my birth certificate as a matter of pride that I am Canadian, I just do not get hiding it from anyone.

When in public office, your life is public. That is it. And well you might have the right not to eat green peas, but you don't get to duck questions and stuff when asked by the people.

And this crap I saw last year there where Bush and that war lord, Cheney was it, what is that about we refuse to answer that question crap. What right do they have to say that, do what you want and answer to no one in the country? It would be answer it, of off with your head at dawn.

I gotta say, the Americans I meet are awesome, patriotic people, where in heck are these guys coming from, under a rock?

Dang, I don't remember seeing the original of Bush's B.C.
In fact, with Photoshop out there, I demand to personally see, feel and touch the original B.C. of each sitting president in the history of the USA. If any look suspicious, I say we ignore all laws and orders signed by that president.

See how foolish this is?

The B.C. was required, it was presented and it was verified. Done deal. Nothing to see here but a bunch of sore, scared losers. Sorry, it is over.

Don't like it? Complain to the people whose job it is to verify the B.C., petition senators and the SCOTUS even, but keep doing your job. My tax dollars are supporting you soldier, get off your bum and do your job. Create conspiracies and refuse reality on your own time.

Until there is damn good proof to the contrary, this man is the POTUS whether the 59million that voted for McSame like it or not. If there is a wide-faring conspiracy out there that put Obama into office illegally, we have MUCH larger issues to worry about than this B.C.

There is a chain of command for a reason.
US Military Chain of Command

If there is a big conspiracy, then everybody up the ladder all the way to the JCoS are in on it. Yeah.

reply to post by HomeBrew


Well, yeah, duh, because ORDERS them self are already (well, suppose to be) in compliance with Geneva convention, those who are giving them are responsible for that part.

Good post HomeBrew, I can see you actually have been it the military or at least know what you are talking about

Originally posted by arizonascott
This soldier is both a Patriot and a true American

And those who disagree, or think that this is foolishness fueled by nothing more than sore loser-ism and racism are not true Americans? What about those who think that it is neither lawful or Constitutional for that soldier to be in Iraq in the first place, are they not true Americans? Or are only the people who agree with you "true Americans" and patriots?

I would like to hear those who demand Obama's birth-certificate one good reason they demand this certificate, why they did not demand it of Bush or other candidate running in the 2008 election, that isn't born of racism and bigotry.

reply to post by nydsdan

The birth certificate wasnt presented and therefore not verified..that is the whole problem. The certificate he presented on his website previous to him being elected was proven to be a forgery.

Originally posted by nj2day

Obama has been sworn in as president... Thus, he is president, even if he is ineligible.

I beg to differ. Any contract that is agreed to while one of the participants fraudulently misrepresents anything important relating to that contract... is null and void. Period!

Just because he was elected does not mean he is a legal president. If it is proven that he is not eligible to be president, he is no more the president than you are. It's bad enough having a nazi leading California to ruin.

The soldier took an oath to "Protect and defend the Constitution of The United States of America against all enemies foreign and DEMESTIC. If the law has not been upheld then there is more than one domestic enemy involved. Under that premise this solder has the right to request clarification from his/her chain of command. With that said, I would not want to be the command that raises that flag. Their military career would be over!

Originally posted by spinkyboo
I think it would be great if Obama would speak to this issue,
and with that wonderful smile and assuring intelligent voice
say -


"I would very much like to put the issue of the legitimacy of my Birth Certificate to rest.
It is obviously a very important issue to many - as it certainly should be.
So here in my hand is my original certificate.
I am happy to know that the American citizens are making sure
that we truly have entered the time of transparency and full disclosure
that I promised and of which we are desperately in need."

Although I may feel that there is no conspiracy, I would certainly LOVE to see this. Sadly, I think the ones that are calling conspiracy would not be satisfied even if they showed home video of the live birth and the view from Hawaii out the window of the delivery room. lol