This could explain a lot.....

From a recent article in Time magazine;

Bosses may be an overbearing breed, but more often than not, you've got to admire their business chops. Wouldn't you love to have that same sense of competence and confidence, that ability to assess tough problems and reach smart solutions on the fly? Guess what? So would they. If you have ever suspected that your boss isn't actually good enough at what he or she does to deserve the job in the first place, a new study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology suggests that you might be right.

Full article here

Hmmmmm.... this really could explain a lot. According to the article, what really gets you leadership positions is being willing to say...well.. anything. Just speaking up and offering an opinion will do, there really is no need for you to be right at all. Or competent at all. Which is really disturbing. Not only that people who are incompetent dont seem to be aware of it, and offer opinions about things they know nothing about, but also that the average person doesnt seem to be able to tell the difference between bravado and competence.

Consider this from the same article;

"Dominant individuals behaved in ways that made them appear competent," the researchers write, "above and beyond their actual competence." Troublingly, group members seemed only too willing to follow these underqualified bosses. An overwhelming 94% of the time, the teams used the first answer anyone shouted out — often giving only perfunctory consideration to others that were offered.

94% of the time, the first answer given was the one implemented. Ack.




[edit on 23-2-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

It's this way in Aerospace Engineering at least half of the time.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
From a recent article in Time magazine;

Not only that people who are incompetent dont seem to be aware of it, and offer opinions about things they know nothing about, but also that the average person doesnt seem to be able to tell the difference between bravado and competence.

Wow, maybe it's me and I don't even know it.

This seems to be true in my experience, especially the bit about the first solution being used.

I've had so many experiences where dude in charge will be like "let's do it this way" and I (or anyone else) will be like, "well this way would be better and easier" but first dude always gets it done his way.
It's terribly annoying, but true.

Originally posted by j2000

Wow, maybe it's me and I don't even know it.

Lol. I thought that myself. But I think it is like insanity. If you are sane enough to question your own sanity, you are probably ok. I do offer opinions, but I usually am not just popping out the first thing that comes to mind. I tend to deliberate, and look stuff up, and link to stuff that supports my conclusion. I think we are ok. Doesnt mean we are always right, but it does mean we arent completely deluded.

Originally posted by Mr Headshot

I've had so many experiences where dude in charge will be like "let's do it this way" and I (or anyone else) will be like, "well this way would be better and easier" but first dude always gets it done his way.
It's terribly annoying, but true.

I also had this experience in business school. We had to work in groups. A lot. And more often than not one person would be the first to suggest something while everyone else was still thinking and yes, the group would kind of follow along unquestioningly. I would see that the others thought is was a good idea, (or seemed to) and let it ride for a while. But when things started to go downhill, if the idea didnt work, people did seem willing to listen to the suggestions from the more deliberate thinkers.

Until this article, however, I never considered that there was a pattern at work.

The reality of the situation is that people on the whole are not very intelligent. Usually regardless of the job, if you have a person with a college degree and a non-degreed person applying for the job the degreed person is awarded the position.

Some experts say it is because the person with the degree has demonstrated a willingness and dedication to complete a goal and is willing to endure unrelated distractions to complete a goal. Interesting business model.

Personally I have had some interviews that have went very well and have answered some rather esoteric questions such as: How do I foresee internet service providers of the future? I described wireless broadband similar to EV-DO on the 3G network being provided by cellular providers and was laughed at because of the notoriety of dropped calls and the known range of wi-fi 802.11. That interview was also in the fall of 2000. I wonder if they are laughing now or if they would even remember such an answer.

And like most interviews, the question of what my college degree was. When I answered that I had no degree, you could see the interviewer mentally turn some pages and rush through their benefit packages to end the interview.

See, I just dont understand. I'm starting my second year of college and it's so obvious that I will learn nothing that a good apprenticeship wouldn't have taught me.
Viktor Schauberger (bad wiki article but you'll get the picture) was a genius inventor and observer. He was a forest marshal (basically what I'm working towards) and he thought that university actually perverted the thinking of his two brothers, which is why he never attended college himself.

Sadly, in this country, if you want a job working in a national park you pretty much exclusively work for the national parks service which pretty much exclusively requires you to have a degree in some form or another pertaining to environmental science. It's a sad sad system we hath made for ourselves.

Originally posted by Ahabstar

And like most interviews, the question of what my college degree was. When I answered that I had no degree, you could see the interviewer mentally turn some pages and rush through their benefit packages to end the interview.

I agree with both of you on the issue of the value of a college degree in terms of intelligence. I am no more intelligent now than I was before I got my degree. I have been a self learner all my life, and I have learned more via my own independent study than I did in college.

In my opinion, college is simply a hoop to jump through. Half the people in my business classes cheated in some way. Either by getting the group to do their work, (we were graded as a group too, so we had no choice) or by buying papers etc. For them, that degree is as good an indication of what they know and how they can perform as any other piece of paper lying about their houses.

College is a way of locking some people out of certain jobs. Not making sure that only the best get them. If you are interested here is an interesting piece on medical school and why it is so expensive. It is basically a function of people in a profession protecting their own salaries by limiting entry to that profession. It has nothing to do with ensuring quality. Though that is the excuse used.

www.sjsu.edu...

Around 1900 there was a concerted effort on the part of physicians in the U.S. to restrict the supply of doctors; as they termed it, "To practice professional birth control." First campaigns were conducted in every state to require doctors to pass an examination in order to practice medicine in that state. That was easy for everyone to accept as reasonable. However it is one thing for the government to create a program of certification and yet another thing to create licensing. Certification provides consumers with information whereas licensing is always a vehicle for restricting supply. In the case of physicians it was then specified that in order to take the examination a candidate had to be a graduate of an accredited medical school. Somehow that deviated from the goal of requiring competency for medical practioners. But most would accept that as probably basically wise. Then came the clencher. Who was to be the accrediting agency for the the medical schools. The task was given to a committee of the American Medical Association (AMA). The AMA is basically the union for doctors, or perhaps more accurately the guild for the doctors.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

I feel that apprenticeships would be the way to go on many levels. And in some cases a person should be able to by-pass criteria in undergraduate work. An accountant should not require extensive liberal arts classes to "round out" their education. A book keeper that does nothing but ledgers should be able to get by with some classes at a trade school. Yet here we are.

As a side note, I was once offered $68k/yr as computer tech for a firm. Their system was UNIX and I felt I was not qualified to accept the position. Now it was not my resume that they saw but the fact I had been called in to repair a printer problem.

The funny thing is I actually had to argue a bit with the guy on the phone. He originally offered $50k, which I declined and immediately he countered with $68k--twice what I was making at the time. I had to explain it as that I could learn in time, but if something were to happen that I could not fix then I would have failed you by being dishonest. he was quiet for a moment. So I said trust me, that is a handsome offer but I have to be honest. He said he understood and thanked me for my honesty.

Yep, I have kicked myself a little over it.

Lol. Yeah.

The funny thing is that I actually read a study once on how often people lie to inflate your resume. You were probably more qualified, (and definitely more honest) than the person they eventually did hire.

But I empathize. I tend to be too scrupulously honest myself, and it has often cost me too.

Maybe the lesson we need to learn from this whole study is to be just a tad more aggressive. The world would probably benefit from more people who have the good sense to question their abilities getting hired over the dingleberries who are too dense to even consider that they dont know what they are talking about.

Edit to add,

And I also agree about the apprenticeships. You dont need half the crap you have to take. I will never use my French. I had to take a language, and it is the only one that fit my schedule, and I even got an A, but I dont remember much of it. I sucked. How is that ever going to help me? If anything, it will get me beaten for butchering their language if I ever go to France. Lol.

[edit on 25-2-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]