Why are we ending torture?, page 2

reply to post by RRconservative

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What bothers me in being called "liberal", or maybe that you call yourself "conservative" is that the conservatives have not been conserving anything:
- they funded extremist muslim groups when it was handy, i.e. to fight communism, amongst other places in Afghanistan. Russia was the ennemy.
- the communist world collapsed
- no more need to support those islamic groups
- those islamic groups demand the support back
- refused: they turn to the former russian republic, and get support
- they attack the US

Funny, no?

I mean, it's not funny that people died, die, and will die because of that, and I must say my summary is totally a summary: it lacks many details. It is very gross.

What I mean is: you think the world is against you. Well, part of it is. But open your eyes and accept the rest of the world: it is different but not necessarily bad.

If you conservatives wouldn't want to be the absolute all time and all places reference of what to be, then you would have less ennemies: you create your own ennemies by being so arrogant about the rest. Just like: why do you call me liberal because I don't support torture, in any case? Do you just know what liberal mean? And if so, do you know me enough to judge?

reply to post by itinerantseeker

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Of course there's other ways, lots of them, and all of the ways thinkable should be used first. Then, and only if all else fails, physical harm of some sort always gets the information.
If the info is wrong ('cos we check it) the question will once again be put to the person.
If they "dont know" we would have discovered that they didnt know by the time we tried lots of other ways of asking. So they wouldn't be tortured to begin with.
Our "other ways" you speak of are very effective also, because time and effort is put into researching these ways.

reply to post by NathanNewZealand

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You could ask that person the same question 20 times and they would give you twenty different answer just so you would stop. You would never get that information and then you go a step further and actually kill them, now you're out of luck. You never get that information.

Why do people think that resorting to barbaric tactis, that we will solve all of our problems?

As I have stated before, these things are only keeping us back and encouraging our enemies to attack us.

~Keeper

reply to post by SpookyVince

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no one called you a liberal.
I'm in New Zealand, we don't have liberals and conservatives, we have people.

reply to post by NathanNewZealand

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LOL!!!!!!!!!

Star for you! That is the greatest thing ever. I'm going to start saying that to people now when we have political discussions.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

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No. I'm not talking about going that far.
Nothing medieval.
A good smack on the hand with a hammer, or other non fatal techniques. But after 20 answers (if it ever got to that) then it'd be pretty obvious he wsn't gonna say, even after 5 or 10. So he'd be sentenced instead, to death.

Originally posted by NathanNewZealand
reply to post by SpookyVince

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no one called you a liberal.
I'm in New Zealand, we don't have liberals and conservatives, we have people.

I'm in Belgium. We have people too.

But I was replying to RRConservative.

Originally posted by NathanNewZealand
reply to post by tothetenthpower

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No. I'm not talking about going that far.
Nothing medieval.
A good smack on the hand with a hammer, or other non fatal techniques. But after 20 answers (if it ever got to that) then it'd be pretty obvious he wsn't gonna say, even after 5 or 10. So he'd be sentenced instead, to death.

So your plan is hey if he won't tell us he dies??? What could would that do? That is medieval friend, to the core.

You've escalated from torture to murder. You didn't get information from said person therefore you dont' know if he's guilty or innocent.

These kind of practices are lawless and exactly what goes against the constitution Americans cling to everyday.

Come on, listen to yourself.

~Keeper

reply to post by NathanNewZealand

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While your previous post is hilarious - I need to point something out.

The Muslim Fanatic is not afraid of torture. He is to the point to where he is ready to die for his cause and his religion. Using torture or threat of death doesn't mean much to the truly fanatic.

The threat of death used against the lower level terrorists or even HVTs (high value targets) in Iraq/Afghanistan shouldn't be used as much in the beginning due to the fact that this is what they expect.

Torture just won't work on the current enemy set we face in the battlefield today.

Now - if you were to pull Joe American out of his home, away from his XBOX 360, his McDonalds and his TiVo - I'm sure the mere threat of torture could get 90% of our citizens to talk, but then again - that comes from an extremely different style of living.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

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Wrong, he'd be sentenced for withholding that information.
If he truely didn't know anything we were asking him, then he wouldn't be getting physical harm would he, because we would have established that he knew something during questioning and interrogation.
So if that information being withheld, led to some deaths, then he would be charged with that crime, with holding that level of information, if the interrorgator proved the case, that this guy knew something, then he would be found guilty, and sentenced to whatever the judge says. In some countries, that'd be death.

reply to post by Walkswithfish

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That already happened! Well, sort of.

Reminds me of that kid who went to an Asia country somewhere and was caught (graffiti?) I think - and was whipped with bamboo.

lol

That caused a massive uproar in the herds of the US.

reply to post by mf_luder

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I know this. But some people are fanatics and there's not a lot we can do about it.
But I'm not just talking terrorists, at all. I'm talking criminals. They're more damaging to EVERY country than any terrorist cell could ever be.

reply to post by NathanNewZealand

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I can understand your point, it still does not give you the right to physically harm that person for anything, including sensitive information.

As the a previous poster said, these people expect to be tortured and are willing to die for their cause. They will simply lead you on a goose hunt.

You'd also need proof that they actually knew something.

~Keeper

reply to post by NathanNewZealand

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Oh.

Well hell. If you're talking criminals too - that's almost enough to start a whole new thread on by itself. Don't get me started on how screwed up I think the US justice system is.

Phew.

Think I'd rather go listen to cats have sex.

reply to post by SpookyVince

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Too true.
If I knew my friend was kidnapping and assaulting young girls and boys, and I knew where he had them and where he was, and if I refused to give that information to my interrogator,

I would EXPECT to be tortured. (to some degree, wouldn't take much, I'd squeal like a girl I rekon. Even t the threat of it.)

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