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BART holdup victim grabs knife, kills robber

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posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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BART holdup victim grabs knife, kills robber


www.sfgate.com

A 23-year-old visitor from the East Coast had just gotten money from an ATM when he told his friend on a cell phone that he had a bad feeling about two men approaching him at the Fruitvale BART Station in Oakland.

His worst fears were realized when one suspect, Victor Veliz, 18, held a folding knife with a 5-inch blade to his neck and the other, Christopher Gonzalez, 18, threatened to shoot him Thursday night, authorities said.
(visit the link for the full news article)




posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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Im sure the robbers (Who are gang bangers) family will sue the guy for excessive use of force or some other kind of crap like that. At least the DA is on the ball they are not charging the guy with defending himself. Given the over reaction typical in the community (Look at the recent RIOTS). The other robber will be charged with murded aas they guy dies in the commission of a crime.

From the dad

"I'm angry at both of them," he said of the robbery victim and Veliz. "They took my son away from me. He was a hard-working kid."

He added, "My son is dead. I want somebody to pay for this."

He got what he deserved IMHO


www.sfgate.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 01:48 PM
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I dont understand why the dad could be mad at the victim when his son committed the crime. I agree he got what was coming to him.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by FredT
 


Yeah well I wonder how much his Dad was paying him to work in his roofing business. Gee Dad, maybe if you would have paid your own son a little more he might not have needed to go robbing someone? Maybe if you had taken a little more interest in what your son was doing all these years he wouldn't have ended up in your arms dead from a stab wound?

If you want someone to pay for this how about looking at yourself in the mirror, for you are partly to blame. How about getting mad at his accomplice, who egged him on and participated in the crime with your son?

I betcha Dad if the other kid who got robbed had been killed by your son, you'd find any way you could to justify it, now wouldn't you? Would you have shown up at the victim's funeral? Would you have comforted the victim's family? Would you have even felt bad?

You make me sick. Own up to what your son did. And as a matter of fact, you STILL ought to go apologize to the victim and his family. That's right. But you won't. You are typical of the parent who only wants to bitch when things didn't turn out your way, when it was partly your own lack of good parenting that caused your son to need to get into a gang. When you have a family that cares, Mr. Dad, you don't need a gang.

SIR.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 02:21 PM
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I don't feel sorry for the dad of the attacker at all. Maybe if he instilled values like "don't pull a knife on someone and try to rob them" his son might still be around.

Charging the other robber with murder is a good call in my opinion.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by FredT
Im sure the robbers (Who are gang bangers) family will sue the guy for excessive use of force or some other kind of crap like that.


That was my first thought as soon as I saw the thread title. Give it a few weeks and I'm sure the dad will be trying to sue the victim for wrongful death.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 02:46 PM
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Fred, just one question when you say they were gang bangers, do you know this or is it just an assumption. Don't get me wrong I'm all for protecting ones self but I just wondered was it relevant to the case or true?



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 02:47 PM
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This is a sad story all around. Kudos to the victim here, for actually acting in his own self defense.

Those BART stations have cameras all over the place. Is it too much to ask that Oakland PD not need to be 'flagged down', by a victim holding a bloody knife, in order to do their jobs? At least they're actually being sensible, and not charging the victim with the crime of self-defense - I'm a little surprised, actually.

As to the two attackers, I'll withhold judgment on anything other than their actions. And any father who's lost a son is entitled to grieve and rage as he sees fit. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but Oakland ain't an easy place.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by magicmushroom
 


Dude, it's right in the article. Says that one of the robbers was definitely affiliated with street gangs....and it would seem to me that if one of them is, the other guy is likely a member as well, considering they were doing the robbing together.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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Javier Gonzalez sobbed at the loss of his son, who worked with him in his roofing business and at Oakland Raiders games. "I'm angry at both of them," he said of the robbery victim and Veliz. "They took my son away from me. He was a hard-working kid." He added, "My son is dead. I want somebody to pay for this."


He wants someone to pay for this?
He is mad at the victim?
Oh my.
Oh my.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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Good for the would-be victim.
I can understand how his dad would be tormented right now, but that is no excuse...His son and his sons buddy clearly presented a life-threatening danger to this guy, so he fought back with reckless abandon....Much as many of us would do when cornered and faced with the possibility of death or severe damage to ourselves. And i agree, the other robber should def. be charged with murder....after all, he threatened the guys life, and in turn the would-be victim took his buddy's.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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when reading this thread i had a initial reaction that seemed to be consistant with the rest of the replies here

then i opened the page and watched and listened to the father

i put the situation into perspective, i was able to see the picture of what really happened

was the kid who died wrong, yea he was, shouldnt have ever been in the situation, but he was

we want to say the fathers a fool, how could he want someone to pay and so on

we say the fathers wrong, but how would any father feel when that happens?

the same this father said, maybe he wasnt the best father, obviously not since his kid was how he was, but he was a father, from the way he spoke, ive seen a lot worse, severely worse fathers out there

as humans, we need to be compassionate to the father, even though his son was a criminal

we also need to not just blame the robbers and gang bangers, we need to look at and also blame the society that created this situation

the father was a hard working "decent" man

maybe the kid was even a "decent" kid

but our society, ways of life, create situations and lifestyles that cause these situations to happen

as much as we want everyone to be responsible for their own actions, as much as we want to say its the kids fault and no one elses, as much as we want to blame the father, we need to realize, those are our normal human initial reactions

but we need to step back from those reflexes of ours and ask ourselves why this type of situation happens to often

what is it about our society that has created this situation, and how can we help our peers and fellow humans change this pathetic society for the better


when i read the ops post about how the father wanted someone to pay, i thought to myself, man i wish they could charge this dumb dad and put him in jail for his contributions to the situation

then my human side took over and i realized, this is much bigger then a single father and son

this is more then just a robbery gone bad

this is a society gone bad, an area where the way of life is to kill or be killed, take what you need and want and not to worry about consequences

we blame the father, we blame the criminal, but its us, its our society that created this, we are the ones accountable for this murder



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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He got what was coming to him sure.
Im not so sure if you can say he deserved it.
No one really deserves to be stabbed to death.
But he was the one who instigated it, so it was fair.
If you pull a knife or gun on someone and threaten there life.
You had better intend to use it on them and kill them because, they will take it off you and kill you.
This is human nature.
For the Dad to say someone else should pay for this is just absurd.
I mean perhaps he means the guy who was with his son.
Perhaps his son was a victim of peer group pressure from gangs.
Which is sad, and common, but its not the victims fault he was defending his life.
Although the victim is alive, and his son is dead, this Dad needs to realize that it could have very easily been the other way around.
And that this victim, was faced with death, and had to kill someone, forced to take another persons life to survive.
This will affect him for the rest of his life.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by FredT
Im sure the robbers (Who are gang bangers) family will sue the guy for excessive use of force or some other kind of crap like that.


That was my first thought as soon as I saw the thread title. Give it a few weeks and I'm sure the dad will be trying to sue the victim for wrongful death.


In Calif the criminal can not sue a victim in most cases.
And the rights of a criminals family to sue are fuzzy at best.
In a case where the criminal is killed with HIS own knife a lawyer would have a hard time proving it was intentional and not a accident and that the victim had any intent to kill the criminal or that it was negligence on the part of the victim.

www.lawyerforcrimevictim.com...

It has been my advice as a EMT/fire fighter that all victims of criminals sue the criminals.
This is legal in Calif.
And it gives the criminal a extended sentence in many cases because the criminal can not get off probation/parole unless they provide complete restitution.

in most cases if the prosecution knows the victims plan to sue they will add a small clause to the sentence that all restitution must be payed before parole/probation can be completed.

this means that a criminal may get two years jail and three years parole but at the end of the three years parole if the criminal has not made restitution his parole continues until he does.

parole officers LOVE this clause on parole because it allows them to keep doing no warrent searches till the criminal pays up.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by magicmushroom
Fred, just one question when you say they were gang bangers, do you know this or is it just an assumption. Don't get me wrong I'm all for protecting ones self but I just wondered was it relevant to the case or true?


MM, the article mentions gang affiliations of the robbers. It does not mention which gang and its possible the writter of the article assumed as such.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by ANNED
 


I wasn't aware the laws were written that way in California. Thanks for the info.


People can get sue-happy though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the dad in this case at least tries.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by Dramey
 


While I completely understand the point you are making in regards to the father -
and of course it is overwhelmingly heartbreaking to lose a child -
It is equally important for the father to look at it through the eyes of the physically accosted victim. Someone who feared for losing his life at the hand of another
I've been there. It isn't fun.

And perps have a nasty habit of playing the victim themselves.
And likely in another situation they very well may have been.

This child could have just had the wrong friend at the wrong time -
I've had those friends....

But to further victimize the actual victim - is not clear thinking.
Perhaps he will recognize this after his grief has subsided some.
Perhaps he will be able to put himself in the victims place.
One can only hope.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 10:35 PM
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I feel sorry for the dad, sure, but heck, I feel worse for the victim.
Even though he won... he's still got to be feeling pretty crappy, y'know?

[edit on 21-2-2009 by RuneSpider]



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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the past week alone ive noticed more and more videos/news stories on the victims fighting back and killing/injuring the attackers. it is great that people have finally wised up and not let thugs get over on them. i love it when the victim turns the table on the thug, bring joy to my soul.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by RuneSpider
I feel sorry for the dad, sure, but heck, I feel worse for the victim.
Even though he won... he's still got to be feeling pretty crappy, y'know?

[edit on 21-2-2009 by RuneSpider]


You make a very important point.
This victim has to live everyday with the knowledge that he killed someone.
Probably not his idea of a fun lifetime memory.

This will also play out in his life in other ways.
He will be different.
There will likely be a real loss of innocence.
But this is the reality of this planet at this time.



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