Consensus Reality, Quantum Physics and Magick, page 2
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reply posted on 2-3-2009 @ 11:52 PM by heyo
reply to post by Wertdagf



You're assuming quite a few steps up in your head there. What you describe is indeed the abomination of new age religion but that doesn't mean that what you describe is what's going on. The whole point of the thread is maybe talking about if indeed we know all the laws of physics? I duno, there is too much left unexplained and no one's doing any explaining about it so some people try to figure it out for themselves. Setting limits on trains of thought is not conducive to success in this arena.


reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 12:57 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Incidently, I am not a New Ager.
reply to post by Cyberbian


You expressed it masterfully and I thank you very much for doing so. Star for you!

Such shifts in belief as to what is possible do not and cannot happen as quickly to suddenly have a purple unicorns roaring down the road in a corvette.

reply to post by heyo


Weird isn't it? It's had me scratching my head for at least a week now.

reply to post by heyo


And the thing that bothers and annoys me about mainstream science is that these things are dismissed outright and anyone attempting to incorporate them into their models are ridiculed as quacks/religious/New Ager/etc ad nauseum also outright, yet they do happen.



[edit on 3-3-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 02:04 AM by outsider13
Very interesting thread.
Its hard to say we live in a consensus reality, when at times it seems there is so little consensus on anything!
On the other hand, there are also many things people generally believe in without finding it necessary to discuss - the sun will rise tomorrow, the force of gravity will continue to hold us safely against the earth, the object in front of me is solid, and real, and not just a figment of my imagination.
Beliefs alter our perception of reality, this much we know for certain. But do our beliefs alter reality itself, not merely through physical manifestation, but directly? Is reality in fact contingent on belief? Tough to say... after all, all we really have are our perceptions to go on. There really is no way to tell for sure how well our perceptions are actually representing reality, when our perceptions are the only things we see.
Suppose all the humans were to die, would there still be a reality without us? We generally believe there would, just as we believe reality will continue after our own individual demise.
But here's the problem. We don't really know what that reality would be. The reality we see, is but a infinitesimal fraction of the overall reality, the one that we perceive. So, in this sense, our reality dies with us, and only the absolute lives on. The reality that lies beyond our perspective is unquantifiable, immeasurable, indescribable, and infinite.
Certain ancient peoples, having acknowledged that we can know nothing beyond our own perceptions (and thus demonstrating greater intelligence than most modern humans) postulated that all of reality exists as a thought in the mind of the creator, a single expression, out of infinite possibilities, issued from the absolute void - and your life and my life, dreams within a dream. I don't see much difference between this view and quantum physics, where the universe exists as a spacial, temporal hologram held in place by a unified quantum field.
Some scientists believe that the key to consciousness is that it operates partially on the quantum level. If this is so, then it would be quite natural for our mind to apparently violate the laws of physics. Of course, we couldn't really alter the laws of physics, only the laws of physics according to our severely limited understanding.
I don't think it violates any laws of quantum physics for a corvette driving, purple unicorn to somehow materialize out of nothing. Such an event would be highly unlikely, but by no means impossible. After all, that seems to be what happened to the universe as a whole, time, space, matter, energy, all just sort of popped out from who knows where.
If the mind has the ability to operate and effect things on a quantum level, it would be difficult to determine the theoretical limits of what the mind is capable of. A cursory look at the history of parapsychology will tell us that we don't know all that the mind is capable of, telepathy, psychokinesis, out of body experiences, precognition - there are no known limits.
Human beings have been observed bending spoons with the power of their thoughts alone. Our own government used taxpayer money to train and employ remote viewers to spy on far away places using only their imagination. The big question is not whether some people actually have these abilities - that question has been answered and they do. The big question is, what are the limits of those capabilities? The answer, there are no known limits.


reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 02:21 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by outsider13


Great post. But I do have one item of dissention with your otherwise superb post. I think there is limits in that we are limited by, well, each other. By that I mean our conflicting beliefs, thoughts and etc. If everyone affected reality then it goes to say that we would naturally by our very natures limit each other.
The analogy I am really fond of using is say you and I want to push a ball in two exactly opposite directions and act to push the ball at the same time in the direction we wish to move it, the ball would not go anywhere because the fact we are pushing the ball at the same time in exactly opposite directions would cancel out any movement at all. Limiting, so to speak.
It's late so I hope i get my meaning across.
But all in all, star 4 you!

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 03:14 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Vasilis Azoth


Ah, stop right there. I do not take any of the things you just named for granted. In my reality those are all "maybes"(those of you into quantum logic should know "yes/no/maybe"). And those "solid" object that are "non-imaginary" only exist in my mind, as does the entire universe, and hence are imaginary.

So there we have it, you and I do not live in the same reality.


Actually, since we are interacting, it seems to me that we exist within the same reality.

Great thread but I must say, as a philosopher, that this subject is one that even philosophers can't come close to settling.

The problem is that all information that we have about the "supposed" world out there only exists in our minds.


But that information in our heads is a reflection of something larger by virtue of fact we have shared experiences, case in point responding to each other's posts. I could argue that I am just a mad god in a void but I find it highly unlikely.


But great topic! Mind exercises are always a good thing.

Vas


Cheers!

[edit on 3-3-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 3-3-2009 @ 11:40 PM by heyo
reply to post by Cyberbian



Hey there that's a great saying about them not proving the necessity of their existence. Personally I think logic can be used as slavery. A very irrefutable and undeniable box it can create. I think guilt could be a deciding block of this process if it exists. It would seemingly allow things to become reality for free, and a lot of people feel guilty when getting free things. I think in most people subconscious they maybe don't think they deserve this and that's why they/we don't have it? If enough of us believe we are entitled............


reply posted on 6-3-2009 @ 04:51 PM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Please excuse my absence some very good posts I am noticing. Here goes.

reply to post by Osiris1953


That's pretty much my take on it as well. People's belief creates and fuels the beings they believe created them. More or less.

reply to post by Cyberbian


Very good point and thus a hidden reason for the seemingly instinctive and constant battle of beliefs.

reply to post by Cyberbian


How dare you state it better than I can.

reply to post by heyo


Well there is another avenue of that, there are believe that they are entitled to too dang much but that "The Man" will never give it to them and etc etc etc.
Also be factored in is those that believe someone else doesn't deserve something. Mankind being what he is, and jealousy being what it is and as popular as it is, well, you know.

reply to post by Cyberbian


I am not soo sure "enlightenment" is the name of the game soo much as a goal set by certain individuals, I think that like life there are many paths to walk and we choose the one that best suits us. That life is more or less expressly for the purpose of us to learn what it is "to be" so to speak.

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

[edit on 6-3-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]


reply posted on 7-3-2009 @ 07:08 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Just some tidbits I found.


Observer Effect?


Q: the theory of observing changing the observed

-Anonymous (age 55)
seward, mpls

A: In quantum mechanics we learn that the behavior of the very smallest objects (like electrons, for example) is very unlike the behavior of everyday things like baseballs. When we throw a baseball at a wall, we can predict where it will be during its flight, where it will hit the wall, how it will bounce, and what it will do afterward.

When we fire an electron at a plate with two closely spaced slits in it, and detect the electron on a screen behind these slits, the behavior of the electron is the same as that of a wave in that it can actually go though both holes at once. This may seem odd, but its true. If we repeat this experiment lots of times with lots of electrons, we see that some positions on the screen will have been hit by many electrons and some will have been hit by none. The observed "interference pattern" for these electrons is evidence of their dual wave-particle nature, and is well described by thinking of each electron as a superposition of two "states", one that goes through one slit, one that goes through the other.

To add to this already mysterious behavior, this interference will only happen if both possible paths that the electron can take are not distinguishable. In other words, if we could somehow tell which slit the electron went through each time, we would no longer get the interference. The act of making a measurement of the electrons path fundamentally changes the outcome of the experiment.

Mats

SOURCE:van.physics.illinois.edu...

There is a related issue in quantum mechanics relating to whether systems have pre-existing — prior to measurement, that is — properties corresponding to all measurements that could possibly be made on them. The assumption that they do is often referred to as "realism" in the literature, although it has been argued that the word "realism" is being used in a more restricted sense than philosophical realism. A recent experiment in the realm of quantum physics has been quoted as meaning that we have to "say goodbye" to realism, although the author of the paper states only that "we would [..] have to give up certain intuitive features of realism". These experiments demonstrate a puzzling relationship between the act of measurement and the system being measured, although it is clear from experiment that an "observer" consisting of a single electron is sufficient -- the observer need not be a conscious observer. Also, note that Bell's Theorem suggests strongly that the idea that the state of a system exists independently of its observer may be false.

SOURCE:en.wikipedia.org...(physics)

[edit on 7-3-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]
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