Originally posted by JediMaster
Colonel answer my question, is'nt Hams killing inncoent children on busses murder and ought to be condemend?

It should be condemned... but so should israel killing 20 civilians to get one guy who may or may not be a hamas member...

And maybe if they had the equiptment they could actually target the israeli military. Imagine how #ed israel would be if ppl who support palestine could give them money... but no they cant coz big brother US has Israel covered financially and also has made sure no-one can help palestine...

what would you do if someone came along bulldozed you house, set up a settlement on your land and then proceeded to kill your people. all you have is some AK-47's and some mortars and explosives, the occupyer has tanks, fighter planes, and apachesm as well as a well armed infantry force...

What would you do all you pro-israelis out there? sit back and do nothing, or fight back... would you see yourself as a terrorist, or a resistance fighter...

Well, it is easier to strike an enemy when their guard is down...But how do you think America would have reacted if, say, Germany agreed to the truce? The German high government might have confided the info with the American high government, but it could never be shared with the population. We may very may have thrown Germany, or whoever, into an economic recession the way we did to France for refusing to listen to any proposal we had on Iraq and announcing exactly that on international television.

Germany is different--completely not analogous to the situation. Germany was THERE as a nation. You could go to it. YOu could see the people, their forces, economy, etc. Osama & Co. are like ghosts. You can hear them when they speak...kinda..but you can never find them, or at least some of them. SO, they can still strike at will.

[Edited on 16-4-2004 by Colonel]

Germany was just an example, it could have been any country, France, Kazakistan, Austria...I might have misunderstood your post, however. I'm going to reread it now.

Originally posted by Colonel
COOL HAND:

I'm beginning to like you but in this case I would have to go by my trademark line and say:

NO, YOU'RE WRONG!

As evidenced by Dreamstone: veterans and non-combatants are coming back with Gulf War Syndrome from the first Iraqi War, a serious debilitating sickness, from inhalation of the residue of DU. The Iraqis that are already there are suffering terrible sickness. Words cannot deny reality.

But, you would rather have me believe paper than what my lying eyes show me, eh?

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by Colonel]

I hate to tell you this Colonel, but they have yet to fully determine that DU was the cause of GWS. The most likely source of it was from the demolition of Saddam's Biological weapons stores. The mixing of the chemicals had some then unknown side effects.

If DU was the culprit then we would have already had new cases showing up by now. As it is no one from this war has reported suffering from GWS.

If you won't believe your lying eyes, then at least believe science.

[Edited on 16/4/04 by COOL HAND]

Ummm, my father is far better connected than any of you people, he has spoken with military officials that have said the DU "might" be the source of GWS. He is writing a book on GWS now, in addition to a couple others. In this case, I am right, and all who deny the effects of DU are wrong.

BTW, DU is only considered harmless because it emits Alpha waves, which can not penetrate the skin. However, if inhaled or ingested, anything the emits alphawaves can cause terrible damage with time, destroying DNA proofreading enzymes, and disrupting cell functions.

I agree that hate is the reason for all of this but what was the catalyst? Go figure that and you might end al of this bloodshed. FUrthermore, you speak from a position of pride than one of being concerned about the next round of bombings that kill a few hundred people--because he's gonna do it again. If we can get hinm to stop for the time being, then I'm for it.

Originally posted by Jakko
I always wonder where guys like you get the idea someone needs to defend these murderers or explain why they do what they do.

What most like you fail to understand, is that the terms murder and justice are both interchangeable and subjective. You think they their religious leaders spread propaganda about hating the US etc while you watch the nightly news. If you think the media has not stirred hatred towards the middle east, you are wrong.

It's not logical, it's not just and it's certainly not returning the favor to just blow up innocent people, no matter what the former leaders of those innocent people did to you in the past.

This is a rediculous and completely one sided point of view. I'm not sure how long you would hold to that "no matter what they did..." mentality once someone starts violence near you.

Terrorists have hate and fear as primary motivations to do what they do. Letting hate and fear control you is not a way to improve anything, but it will make sure more hate and fear are created in the other camp, leading to a downwards spiral.

Then become president and cancel the media. Is fear not pushing the "War on Terror" in the first place?

I know these are all huge cliches, but when you think about, hate does spread like cancer unless we choose not to let it.

Originally posted by Colonel

Originally posted by junglejake
Yeah, Colonal, you're right. We should just let them be and let them continue to hate America, to the point of wanting it destroyed.

Maybe if we left them alone they wouldn't hate America. Maybe if we stop supporting these facist Israelies who murder Palestineans they wouldn't hate us. Thse people have legitimate grievences and NOT to address them is to avoid the issue and to allow the killings to continue.

i have to kinda agree with you on this one. but i think the US should stay outta isreals business. i say let the isrealies and the palistinians wipe them selves out.

A murderer is a murderer.
This is not hard to understand, not for you or for me or for terrorists. In general if your "revenge tour" targets people that have had nothing to do with what really bothers you then you're plain stupid and there is no excuse for this.
Revenge itself is allready stupid and wrong enough, targetting the wrong folks in your revenge is beyond my understanding.

And of course USA leadership is not right, basing half of their actions on fear instead of hard evidence.
As I said if you let hate or fear control your moves, you're bound to hurt yourself and others in the end.
It's the hate driven terrorists that fuel the fear that leads to starting a war without having a good reason for it though.

Oh and I did not speak with pride at all, I am from the netherlands.

Originally posted by Jakko
A murderer is a murderer.
This is not hard to understand, not for you or for me or for terrorists. In general if your "revenge tour" targets people that have had nothing to do with what really bothers you then you're plain stupid and there is no excuse for this.

I'm sure that they see it much the way some here see it. The thousand pound bombs and missles can not tell the difference between innocent and not. Many times they engage the former mistake or not, the people on the ground probably don't know or care if it was a "mistake" or "error". They (speculative) see this as a war, and 9-11 as something akin to bombing a well populated area.

Revenge itself is allready stupid and wrong enough, targetting the wrong folks in your revenge is beyond my understanding.

Who would be the right folks? If they only attacked military personel, I don't think it would have mitigated the fact any. We would have cried out about the "innocent military" people just trying to do their jobs.

And of course USA leadership is not right, basing half of their actions on fear instead of hard evidence.
As I said if you let hate or fear control your moves, you're bound to hurt yourself and others in the end.
It's the hate driven terrorists that fuel the fear that leads to starting a war without having a good reason for it though.

Honestly, I think they might have better reasons than us for action. More people have died in this year of war than at the world trade center on 9-11. What is a good reason to you?

Oh and I did not speak with pride at all, I am from the netherlands.

You know what. All you guys can just sit there and say that we need to fight back against terrorists. But answer me this. How does this stop the killing? How does this end the bloodshed? Violence begets violence. What is so difficult to understand about this. They kill us, we kill them, over and over and over--there is no end to it. How about a different solution than "we should fight back." If we can't learn this lesson from history, it will just go on forever...

We could destroy Mecca...obviously kidding.

I do remember on this shlock action movie the villain saying "If you destroy one of the five pillars, the rest will come crumbling down" or something to that effect. I dunno, I had been drinking when I saw it.

Keep in mind that violence is necessary, without it Islam would be nonexistant, and the third reich really might last for a thousand years

I am amazed by your statements that they might have better reasons to take action then us.
Every anti terrorist action coming from us is a reply to what the terrorists do, a reply to the destruction, grief and fear that the terrorists bring us.
It is not a "your turn, my turn" situation.

What the past learns us is that terrorist don't stop if we just do nothing, neither do they stop if we do something, but at least doing something improves the chance to prevent some damage.

The war on iraq was wrong, not because there was no proof for the weapons of mass destruction, but because there were other ways to bring Saddam down without the innocents being killed.

You can not possibly call any terrorism "a war", doing so shows that you do not understand who these people are that blow themselves up, and what drives them.
Terrorism is not a war, it's the worst form of blackmail, carried out by brainwashed and broken people.

Noone is right, but some are more wrong then others, and in this case the terrorist are "most wrong".

[Edited on 17-4-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by Jakko
I am amazed by your statements that they might have better reasons to take action then us.
Every anti terrorist action coming from us is a reply to what the terrorists do, a reply to the destruction, grief and fear that the terrorists bring us.
It is not a "your turn, my turn" situation.

I know it's as you say, the "war on terror" is a reply, but terrorism does not spark from nothing. There obviously is something or things that have caused them to begin to actually attack us.

So, if the terror was the responce, and our attack was because of that responce, then what was the initial event or events? That is why they may have more right than us.

What the past learns us is that terrorist don't stop if we just do nothing, neither do they stop if we do something, but at least doing something improves the chance to prevent some damage.

Or cause more, or create more anger, imbed the "troops" (the terrorists), feed the propaganda machine.

The war on iraq was wrong, not because there was no proof for the weapons of mass destruction, but because there were other ways to bring Saddam down without the innocents being killed.

You can not possibly call any terrorism "a war", doing so shows that you do not understand who these people are that blow themselves up, and what drives them.
Terrorism is not a war, it's the worst form of blackmail, carried out by brainwashed and broken people.

Hmm, that's odd that you say that considering we were terrorists to England. But I'm sure that if you lived in the Nazi controlled Netherlands back in WWII, you wouldn't have tried to screw up the jugernaught in anyway. After all, you wouldn't want to be brainwashed by your own actions or commit blackmail.

Noone is right, but some are more wrong then others, and in this case the terrorist are "most wrong".

[Edited on 17-4-2004 by Jakko]