I lost it at work today.

Here's the problem as I see it. If you receive some sort of tax deduction or credit the United States federal government will take in less in taxes.
If can' can't afford the house without the government hand out reconsider the purchase until you can really afford your house. I waited until I was about 40 years old before my wife and I bought our first house. 25% down payment with our own money - save first - buy later.

Someone at some point will have to make up the difference on the taxes that will not be collected due to the government hand out. They will either raise everyone's taxes eventually or continue to spend our tax dollars frivously until we are so far in debt that the American dollar will be worth less then the Mexican peso.

The "stimulus package" is about 750 Billion dollars. Divided by 300 million Americans = about $2500 each (if my math is correct). Most Americans don't pay more than $5000 per year in federal taxes. It's another government hand out in my opinion. I really do hope it works or we'll just find ourselves further in debt. I am not entirely sure that government hand outs - to anyone other than those who really need it - medically or mentall challenged- really result in much of a positive outcome. In 1933 the unemployment rate in the USA was 25%. In 1941 - after 8 years of government (New Deal) intervention - the unemployment rate was 20%.

But houses are CHEAP right now - so buy if you must and then start paying property taxes, local taxes as well as Fed taxes so all forms of government can take your tax dollars and give them to someone else - SOCIALISM???

reply to post by PhyberDragon


That's a beautiful story. I agree. Many people think that there's some 'material' benefit to such ethics, but that's not really it at all. There's no big payday, no one's going to say "wow how honorable, here's a million bucks". Instead, they'll try and take advantage of you at every turn. But the true payday is every day; the perspective to better realize what's truly important in life. Thanks for telling it.

reply to post by HunkaHunka

I know _A LOT_ of people who NEED something right now. Laid off, can't find work, serious issues.

True. I agree, and I know because back in the early 1990's, i was one of those people laid off from a large corporation with only 1 1/2 years to go.
However, I started my own company, rather than jumping back into the corporate rat race.

Anyway, people that are laid off, aren't going to be taking advantage of this $8,000 tax credit, and that is what David is talking about, I believe.

reply to post by David9176


You're absolutely right. Debt is the single biggest reason we're in this mess. I don't think I need to spell out the spiral that caused it.

There are two fundamental problems with the system:

1) They want us to "spend our way out of recession"

2) Borrow more to achieve (1)

.........am I the only one that can see the MASSIVE flaw in this idea????

reply to post by mirageofdeceit

am I the only one that can see the MASSIVE flaw in this idea????

No,, I think most Americans see this.

Now, that raises the following question:
If most Americans see this, don't you think the politicians see this?

I'll answer that. OF COURSE THEY DO.

NOW, that raises this question:

So WHAT ARE THEY REALLY TRYING TO DO?

The answer to that question is SCARY!

You know what? Maybe I am part of the problem and not a solution but I am tired of paying for all the entitlements to non- working lazy fools out there.
The government (state, local & FED) tax me on the income, tax me again on the same money when i spend it.

They Tax my property,
tax my smokes,
tax my gas,
tax my phone,
tax my electric,
tax my cable,
I dont think I'm paying tax on the air i breathe yet..... give'em time..

I keep paying more and more every year while worthless sacks of skin, illegals and ladies in Cali have 14 kids while on welfare get the money and all the benifits.

I work my @ss off to feed my 3 kids & wife, pay my bills on time, live without credit cards and seem to do just fine.

I saw on the news tonight that 5 states want to tax you on the miles you drive now. Your odometer keeps track and they tax you on how much you drive... Whats next?

Bailout's & stimulus packages one after another. We woulda been paying those off for the next 200 years assuming the country makes it through this circus. I don't believe it will.

So ya know what? I WILL take every tax credit they give me whether its for a child or a house. I have OVER paid WAAAAAYYYy more in stupid taxes supporting their agenda than I will ever get back from them.

SCREW'EM.

I feel a certain serenity knowing that when i fall alot of others will too. I dont think this is a bad thing i almost feel it is destiny. This power and complex thinking we place on this paper that only has value because a majority of us thinks so realy has no power at all. Im sick of earthly things and this agenda based hype. All this fear, life is bigger than the human race. Im sick of the claustrophobic feeling. I know things are getting bad but at the same time i feel this serene feeling like who cares. I feel like there is power so much bigger than my mind could ever comprehend. Life is short anyways why should it ever get this complicated?

reply to post by mirageofdeceit

.........am I the only one that can see the MASSIVE flaw in this idea????

As Prof stated...trust me you are not.

We've all been had. Some of us see it, some still don't.

Those of us that do are screaming at the other but they don't understand why we are screaming or they don't care. I don't know what it is.

This isn't sustainable. Eventually it has to stop and odds are it won't be because we took action..it will be because we took no action.

reply to post by David9176


Yet Ron Paul says that is exactly what we should have done... taken no action, let the banks fail outright, let GM fail outright...

It would be the capitalist thing to do....do nothing and let it happen.

reply to post by HunkaHunka

let the banks fail outright, let GM fail outright...

Do you think this isn't going to happen now?

Come on.

The more we do to try and stop the pain the more we grind the knife in deeper.

If these things were meant to fall then they had too. You can't stop companies from falling with money that isn't there.

If they had to fall then let them fall. Passing all these crazy spending bills that divide the country is not going to fix it. Look around, it's not getting better. Everytime something is tried the burden to the people that are working becomes greater. It's taking us all to the same level...poverty.

Don't people realize how horrible we continue to make our future?

reply to post by David9176


We've had these first buyers grants in Oz for donkeys years.
Wait until someone buys a $10 mil house (cash) they apply for
the grant and they get it. See how you feel then.
It took a change of government to fix that little gem.

reply to post by David9176


Personally, it's all based on fantasy anyway...


To be honest, I'm concerned for today and tomorrow....

Originally posted by David9176
How can anyone put trust in what is happening? HOW?

Don't take the sweet-tasting carrot hanging from that whipping stick! It's a trick! If that money is free, what is the catch, REALLY? Anyone taking the bait, err, I meant bail money has got to wonder if getting something for free means ultimate gratitude to the master or indebtedness to the hand that feeds lots of goodies.

A very good way of putting it, were already in the nasty of the nastiest situations.

Obama will only make a few promises, but in the end he still doesn't determine what fraudulent events take place. Starred!

What amazes me is that half the people on this forum have probably never owned a home or much of anything else for that matter. Let me state first, I don't believe in bailouts. Humans learn nothing if not forced to pay the consequences of their actions. A decision is a decision; it's not bad until the outcome is finally known. In some cases, the results of a decision may not be known for years. Hence, we have seen this with the wave of foreclosures. Granted, some people tried to work the system, and these are not the people I'm talking about.
My own experience...I had a job which I worked at for years. It required travel, buying certain supplies to complete the work. I was responsible to pay for both. In 2000, the job paid good money, even after subtracting the net cost of the required supplies and travel expenses. By 2005, the job was paying 20% LESS, still, the gross income looked good on paper...very good. However, gas suddenly rose to over $4 a gallon...4 times what I paid for it in the year 2000. I was spending an average of $250 NET DOLLARS a week for gas in 2006, vs $80 in 2000. Mind you, I had taken a 20% pay hit in 2005. The same supplies I had to buy, were now 25% more, in some cases like lacquer thinner (We used several gallons a week)the price DOUBLED from 2000 to 2006. By July of 2006 our workload had dropped off dramatically. This translated into about 25% more of a pay cut for me. Subsequently, by February of 2006, after months of promises that things would pick-up, I could no longer afford to go to work! I went basically bankrupt.
NO ONE was hiring in my construction trade, and they are still not. Most of the guys I know in the business are severely screwed, since all of them bought houses in 02,03,04 when the bubble was really building. LAZY??? We worked our asses off 12 hours a day, often in the hot sun of the California desert. Just to be sure, I ALMOST bought in early 2005, but didn't.
My point is, that stuff goes wrong in life. Not everyone that finds themselves bankrupt is a LAZY piece of dung or looking to suck off the system.
I have a feeling, as the unemployment numbers begin to grow, and grow, and grow (and they will!!!)and this economic collapse really hits MAIN STREET...a lot of PROUD, HOLIER THAN THOU LOUDMOUTHS are going to know hardship. And until you do, until you have been the VICTIM of a strange, unexpected, twist of fate, you can not understand the plight of someone that has experienced it. ARE THERE VICTIMS??? We working class AMERICANS are all VICTIMS, but it's not completely evident yet to most of YOU. Some of us see the writing on the wall. We are TRULY SCREWED...But the true SHOCKING inevitability is that most of us have yet to see just how badly we have been screwed. And pretty soon...the EGOMANIACS, and the SELF-RIGHTEOUS are going to join the ranks of the humble and the meek...and somewhere it says that we shall inherit the earth...oh yeah, it was RUSH that said that (and maybe a few others LOL). But there will be no one to inherit the earth, unless we all realize we are all in the same sinking ship...whether you have a job, or not; whether you have a home, or not; whether you always paid your bills or not. The POOR are going to have the upper hand here soon...a little less far to fall, means a little less pain to endure when you hit the BOTTOM. Good Luck to the rest of you...but since you've always had that, you have no need to worry...

if i qualified, i would take it. it's a buyer's market right now. if you're feeling secure in your job and think that you are safe from the coming unemployment crisis, go for it.

can't take it with you!

shop, buy, support your country. we can get through this. we're innovative and we know we're all in this together.

and stop being so scared.

reply to post by David9176


Get it while it's there. Find out what money are, and how they are created. You are not stealing anything...

Originally posted by PhyberDragon

If you get yours now, we all get ours later. I don't own or rent and don't care to, I don't have your headaches. And no taxpayer pays for me. Yet, I will pay for your entitlements in the end as well.


[edit on 20-2-2009 by PhyberDragon]

If you neither own nor rent, how exactly do you live? Obviously someone's footing the bills for your room, board, internet access, etc...

reply to post by David9176


you are a fool sir, take it while you can, you need to realise that in is an entitlement,everybody pays into the system and now it is a chance to get a little back, these chances do not come to often. you can take the moral high ground if you realy must (though i do not feel there is one), but you will be the one left behind and bitching, i think you should apologise to your friend, and start playing the system, after all they play you enough

Coming from Australia I find this thread intersting since this is a similar scheme that has been in place in Australia for many years.
It is a system that is a double sword. What it does do though is enable first homebuyers to purchase a property that they otherwise may not be able to afford and this in turn will stimulate the building industry to build more houses and keep the economy ploughing along. That is actually a good thing and what you want. In Australia it is one of factors that has led Australia to be in arguably one of the best financial positions than any other country in the world. That is a fact.
The double edged sword is that this can lead to too much debt to be borrowed and for too many people to borrow money that they simply cannot afford to pay back in the first place. This is what sparked the sub-prime market failings in the US when lenders started to recall there loans and the bottom of the market fell out.
I know thats a rather simplistic view but its really that simple. As scheme like a first homebuyers grant can really work towards creating a strong economy like Australia's but if abused and the laws relaxed like in the US, it can and has led to economic disaster.
Another point I might like to add is that you shouldn't let the outlook of the general media to fool you into thinking its a situatin we will not get out of. A lot of people don't realise that for every downturn in the economy there is a recovery and the economy of the US will survive and it will eventully recover just as the rest of the world. The world has to keep rolling on. And you can rely on a country like Australia to lead the way out of the recession & into recovery. It may get worse before it gets better but trust me this situation will get better! Don't let the media fear campain win. Things will get better.