Illegal Immigrant - White Caucasian Settlers - Let Truth Be Spoken

I never ever ever knew there this many sheeple on ATS

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by Jenna
We should all just throw open our doors and let all the illegal immigrants in that want to be here. So what if citizens are starving and can't find work, the illegals need to be taken care of.

Gotcha. I completely understand now.

Could someone please let this Jenna know about what I have been posting please?

I have been accused of repeating myself yet these statements like Jenna's keep coming back and again again.

Did you even read any of my posts?//??

I NEVER SAID KEEP YOUR DOORS OPEN
BORDER SECURITY IS IMPORTANT I SAID

I can vouch for him. He never said that we should keep our borders open. His absurd statements were regarding completely different topics.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Yep sure have. And you think that being apologetic for the plight of people who break the law is sound logic. Go back and re-read the post you quoted. It is filled with apologetic language about how the poor illegals are just trying to take care of their families. Last time I checked, breaking the law wasn't exactly the best way to take care of your family and is by definition illegal. So excuse me if I don't feel sorry for a group of people who are criminals from the moment they set foot on US soil.


Edit: spelling

[edit on 20-2-2009 by Jenna]

reply to post by ModernAcademia


This is a good video that I've seen several times before.
Ron Paul is one of our GREAT AMERICAN HERO'S along with Dennis Kucinich and Robert Wexler and I agree with MOST of what he's saying in this video.

That being said, the video doesn't have much to do with our discussion on this thread.

I also understand now where your parroting your information from. Now you need to understand what it means.

reply to post by jfj123


Yeah, I get it. The problems afflicting these people aren't your fault. But whose fault is it that your getting undercut by the illegals? It seems part of the responsibility lies in the corrupt corporations or individuals that knowingly employ illegal labor rather than legal labor. I haven't noticed you throwing any blame their way, even though they seem to hold just as much responsibility for you losing out on the work.
There are two ways to look at, one in which you place full responsibility on the shoulders of illegal immigrants, and one in which you realize the broader problems which contribute to the situation. The problem will never be solved without looking at both sides of the issue. To look at illegal immigration as merely a criminal problem, rather than an epidemic stemming from gross economic problems is overly simplistic.
Also, how about a little compassion, huh? You say its not your problem that things are bad in Mexico. But obviously it is a problem for you that Mexicans are breaking the law to try to make a better living in the United States. The first problem is a direct cause of the other, so I'd say it is your problem. And its my problem, and its everybodies problem who wants to live in a country where its getting harder and harder to get a job, and we have an influx of people from south of the border where its even worse, making it even harder for all of us.

Originally posted by jfj123
Ron Paul is one of our GREAT AMERICAN HERO'S along with Dennis Kucinich and Robert Wexler and I agree with MOST of what he's saying in this video.

That being said, the video doesn't have much to do with our discussion on this thread.

I also understand now where your parroting your information from. Now you need to understand what it means.

RP is not just an american hero
he's a hero period

and no you do NOT agree with what he has to say
just look at your prior 2 posts and you will see

you just said terroists don't care that we are there LOLLLLLLLLLLL

and I am not parroting information
I have always known this

I used to be somewhat like you in my earlier more naive younger days
then I did my research

read the book called Blowback
it's a 3 part series
excellent book you can find it on amazon
ever heard of it?

Originally posted by outsider13
reply to post by jfj123

 

Yeah, I get it. The problems afflicting these people aren't your fault. But whose fault is it that your getting undercut by the illegals?

Well if the illegals weren't here, it wouldn't be an issue.

It seems part of the responsibility lies in the corrupt corporations or individuals that knowingly employ illegal labor rather than legal labor.

I consider those companies/individuals the same people who knowingly buy stolen goods.

I haven't noticed you throwing any blame their way, even though they seem to hold just as much responsibility for you losing out on the work.

Just did.

There are two ways to look at, one in which you place full responsibility on the shoulders of illegal immigrants, and one in which you realize the broader problems which contribute to the situation.

If they were not here illegally, those problems related to them would not exist. They are the starting point with regards to the United States.

The problem will never be solved without looking at both sides of the issue.

That's like saying that murder won't be solved until we sympathize with the murderers.

To look at illegal immigration as merely a criminal problem, rather than an epidemic stemming from gross economic problems is overly simplistic.

Economic problems in another country. We can't be held responsible for other countries problems. We have our own to deal with.

Also, how about a little compassion, huh? You say its not your problem that things are bad in Mexico. But obviously it is a problem for you that Mexicans are breaking the law to try to make a better living in the United States.

Well it shouldn't be my problem when criminals commit crimes in general.

The first problem is a direct cause of the other, so I'd say it is your problem.

Yes unfortunately, the nature of criminals create the problem for everyone to deal with.

And its my problem, and its everybodies problem who wants to live in a country where its getting harder and harder to get a job, and we have an influx of people from south of the border where its even worse, making it even harder for all of us.

It shouldn't be though. I obey the laws and pay my taxes. If they can't, they should be punished for it and they're not for the most part.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by jfj123
Ron Paul is one of our GREAT AMERICAN HERO'S along with Dennis Kucinich and Robert Wexler and I agree with MOST of what he's saying in this video.

That being said, the video doesn't have much to do with our discussion on this thread.

I also understand now where your parroting your information from. Now you need to understand what it means.

RP is not just an american hero
he's a hero period

and no you do NOT agree with what he has to say
just look at your prior 2 posts and you will see

I said MOST, not ALL. Stop picking and choosing and read the entire post.

you just said terroists don't care that we are there LOLLLLLLLLLLL

Yes. The extremist have stated over and over that they don't want us to exist unless we embrace their extremist views so it doesn't matter whether we're over seas or pull ever troop back home. IT DOESN'T matter to them. THEY WANT US ALL DEAD because we don't subscribe to their extreme fundamentalist laws.

and I am not parroting information
I have always known this

Wow, even before ron paul said it? You must be a super genius with knowledge far beyond those of mortal men.

I used to be somewhat like you in my earlier more naive younger days
then I did my research

And somehow you became even more naive

Another personal insult directed toward me and yet you complained about me getting personal. Like I said, you made your bed now lie in it

You still haven't responded to my analogy? Why not?

[edit on 20-2-2009 by jfj123]

Humans through out time have migrated to every sustainable area of the planet.

There is not a place on this world that is not a country except Antarctica.


There is a border that exist between America and Mexico.

The people who were on the farmers land entered a country illegally to work illegally.


15,000 years ago three groups of humans crossed the land bridge from Russia to the North America's. One group may have been Caucasian.

They believe 100,000 years ago the human race evolved from Africa. Should we all go back ?

Humans society cultures governments spirituality all evolve.

If someone caught some illegal American's coming across the border in Canada to work is it wrong for the Canadian government to send them back.

I wonder how the native American's would feel if a bunch of mexican's started trying to get jobs on their reserves. ? I live in a country that is multi cultural.... should we all go back to our genetic points of origin.

Are all the Mexicans in America illegals NO !!!!

All the countries have immigration laws now.

How far back in time do you want to go ?

Answer: as far back as my twisted views on things can be supported.

sorry no star and flag for you.

They were not illegal immigrates they were settlers

American and Mexican borders did not exist back then.

Things are still evolving.

I'll be back in 1000 years to update you in this thread of the situation then.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
So i've been somewhat active in the thread about the ranch owner that assaulted some illegal immigrants and got fined, and because of this vigilanteism many are angry at the court outcome.

This angers me so much that many educated people on this board think this way.

Whether you want to remember or not, whether you think it's currently important or not all white caucasians in North America are the sons and daughters of not only illegal immigrants but crusaders that came here with Genocide as their passports.

So the logic where, your grandfathers crusaded over here, then killed, raped, murdered the natives and then stuck the rest of them in 'reservations', and now after settling here through amnesty(because children born here are citizens even though their parents are immigrants) you call other illegals immigrants when they are just more peaceful and hungry versions of you great grandfathers is so very sad and has no logic whatsoever.

If you went to the future and read this story in a book you would look at these people as horrible human beings. Before reading on please take a pause, close your eyes and pretend you are looking back at this as so.

If Israel completely took over palestine, some of these same people would be anti-israel because they know it's wrong. But when they are the descendants of oppressors they have a different opinion.

You want to say that we are not our ancestors?
Fine say it, but don't forget it.
And even if you refuse to remember it you still cannot call this your land.
So people should be able to go wherever their feet takes them.

It's so unfair, your ancestors invade this place and today you call others who come here illegally yet peacefully and you call them what you are but are exempt because of amnesty.

Your govt. sells guns, arms, puts a dictator in place in foreign nations, the people riot and you call them savages.

Your govt. imperializes, installs bases in foreign land and the people retaliate and you call them terroists.

Many, none here i'm sure, but many tell black people to go back to their country when it was their ancestors who brought them here in the first place against their will.

It's all so damn backwards, but you refuse to empathize because of the side of the fence which you reside in will hurt your conscience once you acknowledge it.

This is hypocrisity in it's highest form!

So I ask you, please flag this thread, I wish for as many ATS members to come here and debate this topic as possible.

I will be an avid participant in this thread.



Thank You

I can call this MY land all I want. For one thing, I am of American descent, but then even Americans weren't really of american descent, because they came from somewhere else and usurped whoever or whatever was here before them. The US of A is the rightful bearers of this land, it does not matter what means they got it from.

It is our responsibility to make sure that we as American citizens, retain our individual liberties guaranteed us in our founding document or we will go the same road that my ancestors the native americans went and we will lose this country.

I don't care about the illegals coming across the border, I care about my family here. My wife is Mexican. She lived her whole life in Mexico until she married me. She came here legally. Her father already lived here legally.

I will not sit idly by while a government that is supposed to be run by the people and for the people takes those peoples money and resources and wastes it on people who don't respect our laws.

Hell I will not sit idly by while our founding document gets trampled on by the people we have entrusted and GIVEN the power to run OUR government.

Jaden

Hi, jfj123, and thanks for the support. Nice to see you on the same side of an issue as me

Unfortunately, in spite of a promise to respond to everyone who posts, the OP has completely ignored my first post. Let's see if they ignore this one as well.

I love analogies. Sometimes concepts become so much clearer when reduced to simplest terms using an analogy. So here goes..

Out in the country somewhere there are two nice little homesteads, each with a house and 20 acres. Both Mark and Sam inherited their properties from their parents, and were born into them if not precisely born on them. Both houses are heated by fireplaces, but Mark's property is 2/3 wooded and Sam's property is nearly all pasture except for a few shade trees around the house.

Mark, of course, spends an appropriate amount of time during the Spring and Summer cutting, splitting, and stacking wood. When the first cold week of Winter rolls around, he's toasty. But what about poor Sam who doesn't have any wood and is in danger of freezing to death?

In MY world, Sam has some options. He could raise cattle on his pastures and trade Mark beef for wood. Or he could bale hay and sell the hay to buy wood. Or he could even go to Mark and say "Look, Mark, I don't have any wood on my place. If I cut, split, and stack enough wood to get us both through the Winter, would you let me have half of it?"

In YOUR world, apparently, it's Mark's responsibility to take care of Sam. He must either give Sam some of the wood that he has spent half the year cutting and splitting because after all, Sam didn't choose what place to be born, and he can't help it that he doesn't have any wood, or Mark should perhaps just let Sam move in with him, since Mark's house is warm and Sam might otherwise freeze to death.

And, also in YOUR world, if Sam makes a decision to either go onto Mark's property and steal wood, or break into Mark's house and start living there because it's warm, (both actions that he knows are against the law and wrong), Mark should just allow it. Right?

If that first cold week of Winter comes around and Sam goes to Mark and ASKS for wood, Mark now has a moral decision to make and can choose to give Sam wood or not. And, if he leaves Sam to his fate you may judge him for it.

But it really isn't fair in any world to expect Mark to allow Sam to either steal from him or just move into his house because Sam has no wood. Is it?

(In case some of you didn't "get" it, Mark represents the USA and Sam represents Mexico).

reply to post by Heike


To me, it makes more sense to frame the analogy like this.
You and Sam are neighbors who share a landlord named Bob. You both work all day chopping wood so that you can give the majority of it to Bob, and Sam does the same.
Bob doesn't do any wood chopping of his own, basically runs his land however he wants, and doesn't care at all where the wood is coming from, but demands that he receive the wood or else you and your family and sam and his family will starve.
One day, Sam runs out of wood, so he comes over to your place, which is really Bob's place, and steals some of your wood so he can sell it to Bob to feed his family. You show up to sell wood to Bob, and he says, "no thanks, I already bought wood from Sam." You say, "That's not fair, Sam took that wood from me." Bob says, "Don't care where the wood came from, its all my wood anyway, too bad for you."
Who is the real cause of the problem here?
Say you decide to get rid of Sam. For a while your fine, but then Bob lets another guy move into Sam's old place, and the same thing happens again, he runs out of wood, steals some from you so that he can feed his family, and your left with nothing.
What are you gonna do? Get rid of the new guy? Same thing happens again and again until you realize, "Man, none of this would be a problem if it weren't for Bob and his cruel way of running things."
To make this even more realistic, Bob not only leeches off you, but he is directly responsible for Sam running out of wood, because he's chopped it all down and put a soccer ball factory in its place. Sam has the option of working in the soccer ball factory, but he won't be paid enough to feed his family, so its pretty much worthless to him.

Also, to jfj123, all crimes aren't the same. Don't go equating murder with illegal immigration and labelling everyone who breaks a law a "criminal" and therefore less of a human being than yourself. You ever break the speed limit? Your a criminal. I don't care why you do, your a criminal and you need to be locked up. You stole a loaf of bread to feed your family? Sorry, I don't sympathize with murderers (criminals) so why should a sympathize with you (a criminal who is committing a crime to save a life). Does this type of thinking seem right to you?

[edit on 20-2-2009 by outsider13]

[edit on 20-2-2009 by outsider13]

ModernAcademia

Forget about what happened 100's of years ago. You can debate the morality of past events all you like, it doesn't change what's happening NOW. The illegals are crossing the borders NOW, against the laws of the land they are entering, thus the label of "illegals". If you think the world should be some other way that's fine but as of NOW, it's not. We have laws just like Canada does. I'm sure as a perfect citizen you follow the laws of the nation in which you reside. What we expect is that those entering ours do the same. If their first act in our nation is committing an illegal act, I have little sympathy for them. Their first act was to disrespect the laws of the land they are entering.



you said this...

"no, no locks on ur doors just makes u stupid not the one to blame
but this analogy is irrelevant
it's ur responsibility to have locks on your doors not the govt.'s
if u don't want to lock ur doors that's ur choice as long as it only affects u
weak border security affects everyone"

You stated that the spark for this thread was the other one about the man sued by the illegals. Please answer the following.

If the government does a poor job of securing the borders after being repeatedly asked for help, what are people affected by this supposed to do?

If some of the people crossing the border are intent on criminal activity, how do you differentiate them from some poor person just looking for a better life?

If it were YOUR property being stolen, vandalized, or destroyed, what would you do if the government refused to properly secure the border?

If YOU and YOUR family were exposed to garbage and human feces on your property left for you to clean up, what would you do?

If your home, or your neighbors homes, were targeted by this criminal element, would you defend yourself knowing the government will not?

Through various statements you seem at once to think everyone should just 'deal' with it because of some illogical reasoning, then go on to imply stronger border security should be the answer. The problem is those people 'dealing' with the problem have asked for stronger security only to be ignored.

Again, please forget about what someone somewhere did 2 or 3 hundred years ago. The people on the border NOW didn't conquer, rape and pillage any native races. They are having problems NOW. Just answer the questions without a long diatribe about past injustices which no one alive today had anything to do with.

At some point or another,we are ALL descendants of immigrants.The "ILLEGAL"
status only came about when we started putting up tribal boundarys and later,fences.

Its all a moot point really.

reply to post by outsider13


Thanks for responding to me. I did my best to understand your analogy, but I have one question I need answered: Who's Bob?

As far as I know there is no Bob lording it over both the USA and Mexico and demanding that their GNP be turned over to him instead of being used to take care of each country's respective citizens.

However, in your analogy I would say that Sam still chose to do something he knew was wrong. Instead of stealing the wood from me, wouldn't it have made more sense to discuss it with me and both of us do something about Bob?

And yes, I do understand that not all crimes are the same. If I exceed the speed limit and get caught, I pay my fine and either resolve not to speed any more or not to get caught. I don't, however, sue the policeman for "emotional distress" because he caught me and ticketed me, nor do I attempt to get out of the ticket by claiming that I was only doing it to get home to my kids and therefore it's justified.

Furthermore, if I steal a loaf of bread to feed my family, it's still stealing. And if me stealing bread for my family causes the family I stole from to go hungry, now who's "right"?

There's another interesting thread running right now about "monkeys having morals." I've been following it and there's some interesting discussion there. Partly what I've distilled out of it seems to say that morality and right/wrong were evolved to allow monkeys (and perhaps humans) to live in groups.

In order to live as an accepted member of any group or society, I must follow that group or society's rules. In return there are benefits I receive as a member of the group. If I don't like the rules, I can choose to leave the group and give up the benefits, but trying to stay in the group and not follow the rules generally isn't an option.

And the simplest and most basic rule of any such group or society is that there are only two ways to become a member:
1) You're born into it.
2) You're invited and/or accepted into the group.

You can't just force or bully your way in and expect to receive the benefits of being a member of the group, especially if you then also try not to follow the rules!

America is marginally still a capitalist society. Everyone trying to come to America should know that. Capitalism is about personal responsibility and "making it on your own." If you want to be taken care of without working for it, go sneak into a Socialist country. In a Capitalist society we expect you to get a job and provide for yourself and your family, and if you don't like that don't try to be part of our Capitalist society.

In the pioneer days, they took "40 acres and a mule" and took care of themselves. They raised their own food, built their own house, traded for what they couldn't produce themselves, and became self-sufficient. Wrong or right, that's substantially different from, say, walking into a Native American village and demanding that they accept you as part of the tribe, build you a teepee, and feed you. I'm guessing if you had tried that, it wouldn't have been long before your scalp became some young brave's trophy.

Now, if you rode into the Native American village with a load of furs to trade and prepared to make your own way, well, that would be different, wouldn't it?

But the influx of people crossing into America are much more like the first example. They have nothing to offer, they just want us to take care of them. That's not how capitalism works.

stop crying!


second line..

Oh, for heaven's sake. Why can there never be a site with alternative news that doesn't have a bunch of left leaning loons spouting stupidity. Oh, Americans are bad! Oh, Americans are evil! Oh, the Founding Fathers were evil savages! Oh, we wade through rivers of blood daily! Evil, death, destroyers of good and beauty! Please! Get hold of yourselves and look around. Smack yourself around if you need to, and some of you do.

As I recall, the American Indians in many cases fought tooth and nail to keep their land, just as the people who possessed the land before them also fought to keep it. What, you think everyone just sprouted in place? Yes, I'm sure everyone just peacefully were born, moved to their designated places in the world, and peacefully settled into a blissful coexistence with the natural world around them - of course, that was only when they weren't running through the fields of flowers with the wind blowing in their hair, skipping joyously at just being alive! Whee! There was no conflict, no fighting, no hardship - just peaceful coexistence. Sigh.... Grow up, kids.

Was the treatment of the American Indian right? Nope, probably not. Did we have slaves? Yes, we did, unfortunately, as did most other peoples in the world at various times. As a matter of fact, the practice is still very common in Africa, the Middle East, and some parts of Asia, but that's probably not worth griping about, is it? It's much more fun to wallow in a self loathing froth of idiocy than to actually think and appreciate where we are. We should acknowledge our past faults and not repeat them, but we should not let past mistakes blind us to the very real fact that 'These United States of America' (note the 'These' part - I do believe in the Constitution - that's the thing you guys read about in school and find a fascinating bit of history not worth worrying about) has created the most successful and altruistic people the world has ever seen. As a whole the US sends more money and charitable aid to the world than all other countries combined. And as long as politics keeps itself out of the way we fight the good fight and try to spread the ideals of our Founding Fathers (AND our Heavenly Father!!).

Yes, boys and girls, I'm sorry. There is a God. There is objective right and wrong. There is good and evil. And yes, decent people are duty-bound to fight that evil. And no, it's not all subjective, culturally conditioned, yada yada. Save that for someone stupid to absorb.

Be proud of this country, at least as it should be were it still based on Constitutional principals, and be proud of traditional American culture. If you want to whine about something, try whining about the adoption and spirited justification of liberal ideals which have never in the history of man amounted to anything else other than ruin or tyranny. Oh, I know - THIS time it will be different. You and yours will be able to make it all work out. Riiight. Grow up folks, grow a brain, and think for once. This mindless liberalism makes me tired.

reply to post by stevegmu


So I guess their Peaceful Dinner with the Native Americans prove that huh? Look they came here, killed the Natives in the area, and when they got bored, or maybe when people began to really educate themselves, they started to burn each other, then as they explored the rest of the United States, what they called "Manifest Destiny" was really a Holocaust upon the Native American people...

reply to post by ModernAcademia


First of all, I'm not a clone of Bush but nice try at CHANGING THE SUBJECT rather that addressing the real issue.

It's funny that you mention how bad it was that whitey killed the native's culture. Sounds a lot like what the Mexicans are doing these days doesn't it?

reply to post by Jenna


I agree with you. I am a caucasian and my ancestors came from Eastern Europe now known as Slovakia. My grandparents came here legally and had children here of which I am a product of one of their sons. If people are talking going back many more years before my grandparents came then I will know what to say about them.People in those times just came in by ship and settled on the land. No papers were necessary in those days. If you call that illigal then so be it. Ones with papers are not illegal and therefore have the rights. I am proud of being an American. Believe me when I say I have seen the old country under communism and it was not pretty. My grandparants had it hard in europe then . You can say almost slaves just to get by in life so they chose to come here and legally.