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Proving God to be fake... In under ten seconds...

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posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


Our basic disagreement seems to be that I believe that every decision we make has a reason behind it which is based on everything around us. We are a result of our universe and everything around us.

You believe that a person can make a choice independent of any of that.

But to make a completely independent choice would be like pulling a thought out of thin air. That's impossible. Every single thought that you are thinking now is a result of everything you've experienced and everything you are experiencing - thus, you are a result of the universe and directly tied to it. A million different factors which give us the illusion of choice.

You asked why I even bother arguing if I believe this.
Because all my past experiences have led me to this point.

You say I believe in predestination. But in a sense, don't we all?
In the future, you've already made your choice.
Now take time out of the equation, as it is nothing more than an illusion.
You were never going to make a different choice. It is what it is.


But tell me, how do you make a choice that is independent of a source, or without influence (if that is what you believe)?
Then if the choice is with influence, then it's no more than a result of those influences.




posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by nj2day
 


Go ahead and do the same with Islam. It's easy to attack Christians. Let's see just how tough you are smart guy. Let's see you attack Islam in the same way. Hey here's a thought ! Why don't you start a whole new thread about you attacking Islam and see what happens?

It's not about proof, it's about faith. People like you really don't bother me. I can believe in what I want just as you can believe in nothing..........nothing at all...........pretty lonely out there............in the darkness...........all alone.........with no beliefs..........maybe you are just a butterfly who is dreaming you are a human.




posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
Apparently you missed the part where the people who did those things did so out of not understanding the commandments.


Even God?
What about his actions which I included in that small list?
Was he not following his own commandments?
Or were the people mistaken and it really wasn't God that did those things?



Originally posted by badmedia
But by using such examples from the bible as a way of dismissing it all, rather than searching for truth, you are searching for a way to avoid the truth in it. You should separate such things if you are looking for truth.


And how do you find truth in the Bible?
Which testimonies do you trust?
Which contradictions do you ignore?

Let me guess... You look inside of yourself and 'seek' the answers.
Basically, you assume.
Many people do this, and because of it many people believe many different things about the Bible.
Ever consider you are no different?

But if you're talking about the good in the Bible, then I'd have to say that Jesus does say some good things - but most of those things are basic...

Treat others with respect and love.
Do no harm to others.

But you don't need the Bible to live a good life...



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
Our basic disagreement seems to be that I believe that every decision we make has a reason behind it which is based on everything around us. We are a result of our universe and everything around us.

You believe that a person can make a choice independent of any of that.

But to make a completely independent choice would be like pulling a thought out of thin air. That's impossible. Every single thought that you are thinking now is a result of everything you've experienced and everything you are experiencing - thus, you are a result of the universe and directly tied to it. A million different factors which give us the illusion of choice.

You asked why I even bother arguing if I believe this.
Because all my past experiences have led me to this point.

You say I believe in predestination. But in a sense, don't we all?
In the future, you've already made your choice.
Now take time out of the equation, as it is nothing more than an illusion.
You were never going to make a different choice. It is what it is.

But tell me, how do you make a choice that is independent of a source, or without influence (if that is what you believe)?
Then if the choice is with influence, then it's no more than a result of those influences.


What you are talking about is the experience. Yes these things do have obvious influence. Yes you will base your choice on things that have happened. But these are the experience itself, not what is doing the experiencing.

And are you not able to imagine things outside this reality, outside these laws? How would that be possible without choice and real intelligence? You aren't stuck with only the experience for your choices. You can choose whatever you want.

All such things do define my experience.

A basic part of wisdom is knowledge and experience. So that based upon this knowledge and experience you can make the correct choice. That is wisdom. So yes, there is purpose and reason. But again, you are confusing the difference between that which is the knowledge and experience and that which understands and experiences.

Where as things with no free will have no choice in their reaction, you do. You do not have to react in a certain way. You can change your reaction and that can change everything that happens after, just like a butterfly affecting the weather. My reaction is also an action, and so that will bring about a reaction. This ability is huge, and that is why it is seperate of this universe/reality.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
You aren't stuck with only the experience for your choices. You can choose whatever you want.


But what matters is why.
Why do you choose those things.
Now trace that 'why' back to the source - keep following it.
Every time, it will come to something external, which eventually seeps into us and defines who we are. We are a result of our universe.

I think we're going in circles though...
I'll give you the last word if you want it, but I don't want to continue this on here as it's starting to derail the thread



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by Possum Roadkill
 


I could do the same thing with Islam or any other religion you name... however, this thread is most decidedly a judeo-christian related thread...

What aims are you hoping to accomplish if I point out weaknesses in Islam?


you can believe in nothing..........nothing at all...........pretty lonely out there


And here you go, insisting that a comfortable lie is better than an uncomfortable truth...

The universe is under no obligation to make anyone's life meaningful... In fact, its up to the individual to make something of their life...

Why must the "truth" be warm and fuzzy?

[edit on 21-2-2009 by nj2day]



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
Even God?
What about his actions which I included in that small list?
Was he not following his own commandments?
Or were the people mistaken and it really wasn't God that did those things?


I don't know. I do know that it was popular back in those times for people to be called God. Pharaohs were, Roman leaders were often declared a god and so forth. I do not base my knowledge of god based on the bible, and did not learn from the bible. I just agree with Jesus, and I also agree with the parts of the old testament that talk about wisdom and knowledge. But only because these are things I know to be true of the father from my own experience.





And how do you find truth in the Bible?
Which testimonies do you trust?
Which contradictions do you ignore?

Let me guess... You look inside of yourself and 'seek' the answers.
Basically, you assume.
Many people do this, and because of it many people believe many different things about the Bible.
Ever consider you are no different?


For me personally I know from my own experience. None of my beliefs are based on the bible. I seen the things I know for myself, these things were taught to me in ways I could understand. I am not a man of faith, outside faith in that the wisdom and knowledge I have is true.

I don't just believe or accept anything based on a book and think it is wrong to do such a thing. But I'm not going to ignore that the bible says the exact same things I learned. I don't like Paul and the church for example. Why? Because I see them doing all the things I was shown not to do. I like Jesus and believe he is telling the truth. Why? Because I see him saying the same things I learned. I see the father in him.

Such is only good and proof for me, not for you. And I understand that. You shouldn't believe me or take me for my word, and I wouldn't take you for your word either. But if you are to say I get my beliefs from that book then you are the one doing the assuming.




But if you're talking about the good in the Bible, then I'd have to say that Jesus does say some good things - but most of those things are basic...

Treat others with respect and love.
Do no harm to others.

But you don't need the Bible to live a good life...


No you don't need the bible. It's called a personal relationship with the father. The father rewards with wisdom and understanding.

Want proof from the bible?

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I was far way from religion and the bible, but I was seeking truth and answers in an honest way. I have pure intentions and just wanted to know how the world could get along. I did not love Jesus, and so I know the father. I learn from the father. Lets look at the next 2 verses.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ding, this is what I experienced. And the experience itself I came to understand a few verses before these, John 14:20 which on that day I knew the truth and it changed everything after.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Never once was the bible mentioned, never once was Jesus mentioned. I was shown that idols and such are not important, but the message and understanding they give is what is important. Not just in religion, but in all things on earth.

But since that time I don't think it's coincidence I found the bible. Even though I was against religion, I was amazed when I read the words of Jesus after. He was speaking exactly what I learned. I recognize the father within him. And that is why it doesn't even matter to me if it is just a made up story. Either way I know he is speaking the truth, and if it was just made up, whoever wrote the words obviously knows the father.

I think the Christian religion is the anti-christ religon. But if you read what Jesus says, he specifically warns of it, and you can see for yourself they only pay him lip service, and don't actually do what he says. And it just so happens Paul makes up nearly 50% of the new testament, and claims to be the teacher for those, even though Jesus said there is only 1 teacher and 1 father and warned of the 2nd shepherd, and the Christian religion comes about at the hands of politicians in Rome, is a religion in the name of Christ, is a new religion since the time of Christ, and then proceeds to kill anyone who doesn't go along with it, just like the prophecy says.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

They didn't have Christians back then, because it is a new religion since. So when it says Jews, it is also talking about Christians as well. Anytime Jesus says Jew, he also means Christians as well, because if you followed him at that time, then you were a Jew.

If you can't see the manipulation in the bible and such, then how do you ever hope to recognize it in the real world? It doesn't really matter what you subscribe too if you can't realize what is manipulation and what isn't.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:50 PM
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Instead of trying to deny one's religious beliefs or their God how about looking deeper inside yourself and tell us all, that you know everything. That you are correct and millions are wrong. Tell us that you've been to heaven and there's nothing there. When you do that and can prove you've done it I'll listen to you.

You can't deny faith. Faith is stronger and deeper than any belief. It's more powerful than a video. When a person has faith in God then there's nothing else that can touch that. That opening video could of showed us Satan himself and all his powers but it wouldn't matter. I quit trying to deny something so precious to one's heart and decided to search my heart. I don't know if there's a God, but I do know that if we just have our selfs then we're screwed.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by nj2day
And here you go, insisting that a comfortable lie is better than an uncomfortable truth...


It seems that some are more comfortable in life by believing in the extraordinary while others are more comfortable in life by simply being honest with themselves.

At the very least, someone who was completely honest with themselves would have to admit that they can not know 100% that any god exists - yet that's so rare in such beliefs that it's almost non-existent.



Originally posted by nj2day
The universe is under no obligation to make anyone's life meaningful... In fact, its up to the individual to make something of their life...

Why must the "truth" be warm and fuzzy?



Well said.
It's the egotistical nature of religion to look at the vastness of the universe and believe that it was all made for us.
The truth often isn't what we want it to be.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by TruthParadox
But you don't need the Bible to live a good life...


No you don't need the bible. It's called a personal relationship with the father. The father rewards with wisdom and understanding.


No, you don't need a belief in God, Jesus, or any aspect of religion to be a good person.
I've met many atheists who are good people - in most cases, with more morals than the average religious person.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 04:12 PM
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posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
No you don't need the bible. It's called a personal relationship with the father. The father rewards with wisdom and understanding.


Whoa! So you're implying that Atheists are bad people?

Which "father" are you referring to? Judeo-christian/Iiawah/Jaweh/Jehova, Allah, Annis, Ra, Jupiter/Zeus, Krishna, Mithra, Chuthulu, Lucifer, Odin, Thor, Sakra, Vishnu, Te-Aka-Ia-Roe, Ganesha, Druantia or any of the 2500 or so remaining deities out there?

So...if someone doesn't believe in a god that isn't yours.... that individual cannot be a good person?




[edit on 21-2-2009 by nj2day]



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
No, you don't need a belief in God, Jesus, or any aspect of religion to be a good person.
I've met many atheists who are good people - in most cases, with more morals than the average religious person.


So, what is your point? Such things have nothing to do with the existence of God.

It all boils down to you having a problem with some religious people and from that you go off on some tirade over dumb things. You purposely ignore the possibility of god because you don't want religious people to be right in anyway, and it's dumb.

All you are doing is changing the subject to avoid the points made. I'm just about done with this thread.



[edit on 21-2-2009 by badmedia]



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
It seems that some are more comfortable in life by believing in the extraordinary while others are more comfortable in life by simply being honest with themselves.

At the very least, someone who was completely honest with themselves would have to admit that they can not know 100% that any god exists - yet that's so rare in such beliefs that it's almost non-existent.


Funny, because I find the idea that it doesn't matter what I do on this earth in the bigger scheme of things to be much more comfortable in life than having to worry about if you are doing bad things, or live up to something.

And again this has nothing to do with if god exists or not.

Now I'm done with this thread, better off trying to teach a blind man what the color blue looks like.

[edit on 21-2-2009 by badmedia]



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


I hardly call it a "dumb" thing that you just declared your superiority over people of all other faiths... and told us that we can't be good people because we don't have a relationship with "the father".

I don't find this a minor point in the least...



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
And again this has nothing to do with if god exists or not.


Actually, I think examining the desire of man to have a "warm fuzzy" existence with a divine purpose is at the very heart of whether god exists or not... Especially if we are talking about probabilities. What's more probable, man created god or god created man?

People feel the need to have a god. That does not mean one exists.


Now I'm done with this thread, better off trying to teach a blind man what the color blue looks like.


Awww, just because we won't take your decrees by fiat as rock solid evidence, and insist that you explain yourself in evidentiary terms, you're going to pick up your toys and go home?



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by badmedia
 


I hardly call it a "dumb" thing that you just declared your superiority over people of all other faiths... and told us that we can't be good people because we don't have a relationship with "the father".

I don't find this a minor point in the least...


Where did I say you couldn't be a good person because you don't have a relationship with the father? I don't think I was a bad person before I had a relationship with the father, I was just dumb and blind.

And whats funny is you 2 are the ones who like to claim that religious people do bad things as a result of religion. Citing parts like the killing and such. And the funny part is I am often pointing out those very things - because they aren't what Jesus says to do, and is the opposite of it.

There is a reason someone has to be deceived. If they were evil or bad people, there would be no need for deception. Only have to decieve good people. So I don't think deceived people are bad or evil at all, they may do bad or evil things out of ignorance or not realizing what they are doing, but it is those who deceive and work to keep people ignorant that are the only truly bad(wicked) people.

As usual, when all else fails you go right back to taking the worse parts of what people do in the name of Jesus and project it onto others, just like a racist person does.

In this entire thread, has 1 thing been mentioned where someone quoted something Jesus said as bad? Go ahead, I'll wait.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by nj2day
Actually, I think examining the desire of man to have a "warm fuzzy" existence with a divine purpose is at the very heart of whether god exists or not... Especially if we are talking about probabilities. What's more probable, man created god or god created man?

People feel the need to have a god. That does not mean one exists.


And some people feel the need to not have a god. Guess what, it neither proves or disproves god. It's completely devoid of the topic and was nothing more than a cop out move.





Now I'm done with this thread, better off trying to teach a blind man what the color blue looks like.


Awww, just because we won't take your decrees by fiat as rock solid evidence, and insist that you explain yourself in evidentiary terms, you're going to pick up your toys and go home?


No, I'm just not going to waste my time. All we are going to do is circle around the same discussion. You 2 are right back to attack Christianity as you were before. Round and round you go. I went around once, now I'm stepping off.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
And the funny part is I am often pointing out those very things - because they aren't what Jesus says to do, and is the opposite of it.




In this entire thread, has 1 thing been mentioned where someone quoted something Jesus said as bad? Go ahead, I'll wait.



Matthew 10:34

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.


Revelation 19:13-15

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Matthew 15:1-5

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

So he chews out the pharisees for not upholding the commandment of killing disobedient children?



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
People feel the need to have a god. That does not mean one exists.


exactly the point I'm making... therefore we must deal in probabilities, unless you can conclusively prove a god exists...


And some people feel the need to not have a god. Guess what, it neither proves or disproves god. It's completely devoid of the topic and was nothing more than a cop out move.


No its not... when dealing with probabilities, its important to review all options... and then investigate the evidence to determine the most probable outcomes... Does man create god? or does god create man...

Now we look at why man would create god... vs... why god would create man... stack the probabilities up, and make a decision from there.

your aversion to the scientific method is stunning to say the least. However, investigating the probabilities is not a cop out... instead, decreeing by fiat and than refusing to induct new data into our investigation is a cop out... its the equivilent of saying "because I said so".

Unfortunately, that only works on toddlers, small children, and gullible adults. All others, want a better answer.


No, I'm just not going to waste my time. All we are going to do is circle around the same discussion. You 2 are right back to attack Christianity as you were before. Round and round you go. I went around once, now I'm stepping off.


Its only christianity we're attacking because that is the basis of your argument... I suppose it wouldn't make much sense if you were talking about judeo-christian gods for us to turn around and reply with an argument based on Thor...

If you talk judeo-christian beliefs, you can expect us to respond in kind.



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