Proving God to be fake... In under ten seconds...

Originally posted by Gregor100
"The god of the bible is claimed to be omnipotent and omniscient.

If you can change the future you are not omniscient.

If you cannot you are not omnipotent.

[edit on 19/2/09 by Gregor100]

Might be too late to chime in with this, but the ability to change the future does not contradict omniscience.

The "future" in a strict sense does not exist for an omniscient being. Omniscience would imply that the all-powerful one has the ability to know the outcome of all probable futures.

And a being that is both omniscient and omnipotent would be able to understand exactly what effect his omnipotent actions would result in.

This isn't much of a logical fallacy upon which to hang one's hat.

The problem with the original post's argument is that it is based on the false assumption that it is possible to know the future. The future has no intrinsic truth value as it has not happened yet. It is impossible to know something that has no truth value. God is still omniscient in that God knows all that is possible to know. For example, God not knowing the marital status of my index finger does not imply that he is not omniscient, because it is not possible to know something with no truth value.

I just LOVE when people think they"ve got everything figured out - so because some human being says that an Omniscient being cannot change the future, it MUST be so...laughable. How do WE know what is or is not Omniscience. Let me ask a simple question - an Amoeba is a living entity, does the Amoeba have any idea about the life or mental processes of, say, an ant? Do you think an ant has any idea about the mental capabilities of a bird? Can a bird grasp the concepts or capabilities within the human brain? And the most important question of all - Do You Think the Cycle STOPS there - or are there consciousnesses that are greater than that of a human being that we humans have only the most rudimentary understanding of? Personally I believe the latter is the case, because WHY would it STOP with Humans...and if it DOES stop with Humans, if we are truly the highest form of consciousness in the Universe, then the God of the Bible MUST exist - because the Bible tells us that God created humans to be just that.

Cheers !

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Consciousness doesn't matter.
No thought or action we form is void of a source.
We ARE 'artificial' intelligence and that would be quite obvious to an omnipotent and omniscient being.

And all actions end up being a choice. You can choose your reaction to something. If someone calls you a name, then you can choose how you react to that. Are you nice, or are you a bit rude? These are our choices. Yes, there is an action that causes us the need to react, but this reaction is still our choice.

Artificial intelligence is artifical because it lacks consciousness. These are well known things. Intelligence has basic requirements. A basic requirement for Intelligence is free will. Without free will there is no intelligence. If there are limits on what can be learned, there is no real intelligence. Because it is not able to choose otherwise, it can only take in information.

So, because AI lacks this ability, it is therefore programmed by it's creator to appear to have intelligence, or do a job that might otherwise require an intelligence to do. AI can and will do many wonderful things. Drive your car? Yep, it can do that. Ponder why it exists and what is the point? Nope. Imagine anything? Nope. Just takes the incoming data and processes it.

I can understand why you would see yourself like this, I once did as well. But it's not true. And btw, if you are actually AI, then it proves you have a creator.

Our thoughts are formed by numerous variables which all play a role in our decision making process - we are an equation.

Change thought to experiences and I will agree with you. These things do define my experience and my reality. They however do not define me, and what it is that experiences the reality.

We mistake ourselves for something more, because the variables that effect us are far more complicated than artificial intelligence we create now.
We can look down on AI and see the choices it will make based off the variables and the program.

Rather, we mistake ourselves as being something more, because we mistake ourselves as being our body and our flesh.

Any God could likewise look down at us and see all the variables he created and exactly how it would effect us.

Actually, the universe is self adjusting in the way it works to give you the experience you need at the time, and the things you need at the time. This is due to the nature that all things are possible and because your choices determine the path you make across it, you are automatically in a place that you need to be, experiencing what you need to experience. Again, it appears linear to you because you move across the creation in a linear manner.

If the temperature in the room is 85 degrees instead of 50, I guarantee you that you will say something differently than you would have, either in meaning or in tone. That would just be another variable, but any all knowing and all powerful being could see that and know the result.
And if such a being created the universe, it would be safe to say that he would also see the domino effect that all the factors involved in our universe would later become - thus making him responsible for our very actions by creating it to be no other way than what it is.

Again, these things only define my experience. Yes my experience effects me. But my reactions and choice are the difference. Because I am conscious, I am able to determine my own reaction. And I do not see things in the same way you do. I do not put much into the variables, instead I concentrate on the equations that produce those variables.

Oh, and if you don't buy that, there are several verses in the Bible which talk about predestination, choosing the elect, God creating the evil to be evil, etc. - which is directly backing what I'm saying.

This trumps all other arguments in my opinion, because why does judgment, tests, tribulations, etc matter when dealing with such a being. If such a being exists, than this is just a play and we are the actors.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

If this existence is linear, then you are right. There is no choice, there is no free will and we just watch the movie that is presented to us, as determined at a certain point. We are stuck with whatever the director(god) gave us to watch. No different than a movie theater. Stuck like a program doing whatever and only what we are reacting too.

But such a notion is IMO foolish. Not only because Quantum Physics and Science is hinting that this isn't a linear existence, but because what is the entire need for manipulation? Why do we even need to vote? These things are still all separate from the ability to observe things. The entire ability to learn new things and so on is a scam. But if all this was true, then why do we do these things?

This creation is based on action and reaction. Reap what you sow. Consciousness is another level completely void of action and reaction, it is the level that brings reason and understanding. You need the Scientist in order to have Science. Science is the study of action and reaction within the laws of our current reality. The scientist is the one who has the reason and understanding that brings it forward.

I'm stuck in a world where half of them want to believe only a religious book, and the other half just wants to believe in science. Not all of course, thankfully but it seems to be the argument of the day.

Science and logic = action, reaction, creation.
Consciousness/soul = reason, understanding, choice and awareness.

Learn to keep them in their proper places, and you will do much better.

A paradox is not a contradiction. Paradoxes seem to be contradictions, but upon further inspection, they pass the Law of Contradiction. The Law of Contradiction states that something cannot exist and not exist at the same time, in the same sense. Example: A man cannot be a man and not a man, but a man can be a son and a father at the same time, since it is in a different sense. Such is the case with Jesus Christ having two natures (100% God and 100% Man). It passes the Law of Contradiction since Scripture does not claim Jesus was a man and not a man, or God and not God. Scripture states Jesus was a man and God. While seemingly a contradiction, it falls under a paradox. We may not fully grasp the paradox, but it doesn't mean it is a contradiction.

To go back to the OP's first claim of disproving the God of the Bible, God does not need to change the future, as He is writing out history. God is outside the limits of time and space which constrain us. However, He chooses to intervene in our affairs so that some may be saved from the wrath that each of us deserves. God not only knows the future, but is working out history. Does God have the ability to change the future? Absolutely. Does He need to? Absolutely not. God is omniscient and omnipotent. Nothing happens without going through the fingers of God. God either directly causes things to happen or He permits them to happen. All things are ordained by God, although God is not the cause of all things. If there is even one maverick molecule in the Universe, then God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God.

And to those who think God is obligated to save everyone, I have one question for you: Why is God obligated to save any? He's not. That is how He shows mercy and justice. He shows mercy by saving those whom He's chosen, and He shows justice by punishing those whom He's not chosen. You may say, "That's not fair!" If you want fair, then all should be crushed at the hand of God, because every single one is guilty when they stand in front of a holy and righteous God.

Suggested reading: Chosen By God by RC Sproul

Using the words "Bible" and "Evidence in the same sentence is almost like an oxymoron.

I for one do not believe in god. Well, at least not the god in the bible. There are obviously things beyond our comprehension but that does not mean that an all powerful super being did it. As was pointed out, look how big the universe is. Do you really think that "God" would care so much about our dust speck of a planet as the Bible says he does? Why would he waste time wishing we were worshiping him and creating a special place for those who do? The existence of a god like that just does not make sense to me and I do not understand why people can waste their whole lives on something so trivial.

The only proof for the Christian god is the Bible because the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, yet it was written by men. Men are corrupt, we lie, we scheme... we do things to achieve our own ends. How do we know why the Bible was written, how do we think that it is anything special? Because "it is the word of God" Oh really? And who told us that? The men who wrote it? Yeah...

Also, how does a perfect God make something as imperfect as man? If he's perfect then wouldn't everything he make have to be perfect as well?

I do not know what happens after we die, no one alive does. I do not know how everything was created, if there is a supreme being or if there is a logical explanation for everything we just haven't discovered yet. It is beyond our comprehension. You can have theories, but that is really all they are, THEORIES.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


If there is a god he must be outside the universe, one reason is because the universe governed by laws, like time and space laws, which every thing in it is subject to it.
And its the only way that god could know the future and therefore could be omniscience.

but if god is omniscience all knowing:
1- God knows (X) happens, (X) happens because god knows it.
2- Whatever happens, god knows that it happens because it happens.
1 cannot be the case because of human freedom.
2 cannot be the case because it would mean that gods knowledge depends on humans acting in time which maks god not omnipotent.
Gregor100 is right 99.9%.

some of you obviously dont know the definition of both words. being omnipotent just means and i quote: "having very great or unlimited power or authority". where as omniscience just means: "having infinite knowledge or being all knowing". no where in either of those definitions does it say anything about changing the future. And to me it makes sense that if you have omniscience and know everything and are omnipotent with unlimited power wouldnt you KNOW how to change the future and BE ABLE to do it. but please i am curious and would like someone to explain how those 2 arguments make sense.

reply to post by Gregor100


some of you obviously dont know the definition of both words. being omnipotent just means and i quote: "having very great or unlimited power or authority". where as omniscience just means: "having infinite knowledge or being all knowing". no where in either of those definitions does it say anything about changing the future. And to me it makes sense that if you have omniscience and know everything and are omnipotent with unlimited power wouldnt you KNOW how to change the future and BE ABLE to do it. but please i am curious and would like someone to explain how the 2 initial arguments make any sense. According to the ACTUAL definition of those words it appears that whomever made that video made a new definition of the word that i am not aware of, I guess i must have missed that meeting. maybe i was busy. BTW "science" has just as many if not more circular logic and just blatant lies as new info surfaces as many religions. for example the fact that many planets and stars rotate differently which according to "The law of Conservation of momentum" is impossible in a "big bang" scenario. Or how about the fact that carbon dating has been proved to be extremely innaccurrate. For example there was a case in which the leg of a mammoth was 40,000 years older than its torso according to carbon dating. or the way that fossils are aged according to the layer they are found in and the way the layers are aged according to the fossils found in them.

you guys are also thinking way to linear and i can kinda see your logic but the facts are that:
A. God is Omniscient
B. We also have free will according to the bible

Then dosent logic dictate(and I am using this because so far you guys are trying to use biblical arguments against itself) that we are able to do as we please but because God has INFINITE knowledge he is able to see INFINITE outcomes of our choices, and the bible also states that he knows us better than we know ourselves so dosent that also mean that he would be able to tell which decision we are going to make in any given circumstance.

Originally posted by Gregor100
www.youtube.com...

If you cant be bothered going to youtube the video says this:

"The god of the bible is claimed to be omnipotent and omniscient.

If you can change the future you are not omniscient.

If you cannot you are not omnipotent.

Myth busted"

Pretty hard evidence right there....

Edit - Well spotted out i mis-quoted... wooops..

[edit on 19/2/09 by Gregor100]

I love this. Another card to add to my hand against religion. I do think however that religion and God are separate entities. I only think religion is mans attempt to explain the unknown (God). It is impossible to explain something we know nothing about. It is like a child trying to explain nuclear physics. The only thing that will happen is that each child will have a different opinion and every single one will be wrong. Then they will try to force their opinion on others and the less minded will follow creating groups of people that salivate for power and money and groups of people that live a fantasy.

VERY GOOD POST S&F!!!!!! I have to admit it but I actually am enjoying seeing the flamers erupt. Guilty take the truth to be hard?.......

Anywho religion is a scourge and disease that is so contagious it has infected the minds of many creating genocide and barriers for enlightenment. Bring the flames!

reply to post by nawa jaf


The fallacy in your argument is the same as the OP. There is a difference between knowing that something is going to happen and being the cause of it.

For instance suppose you are a witness to a car accident? You are standing on the street corner and you see two cars coming towards each other and you realize that they will collide. Did you cause the accident? No, of course not.

Now you say, but God is omnipotent and therefore he caused the accident because he didn't stop it. Actually this is a second fallacy, because simply being able to stop the accident doesn't make you the cause either. The actual situation has not changed except that you are not powerless to stop the accident.

So, your point number 1 fails.

You then say, no fair! If God saw that something bad was going to happen and allowed it, then he is responsible for the outcome. Actually that is at least partly true. I don't think that anyone has claimed that God is not responsible for everything in the Universe. Except of course those that say that God does not exist.

Anyway, parents are put into this position all the time. They see their child doing things that they disagree with, they warn them, but in the end they let their kids make their own mistakes. Are the parents responsible? Well, to some degree they are, but in the end the child's behavior caused the problem.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
I just LOVE when people think they"ve got everything figured out - so because some human being says that an Omniscient being cannot change the future, it MUST be so...laughable. How do WE know what is or is not Omniscience. Let me ask a simple question - an Amoeba is a living entity, does the Amoeba have any idea about the life or mental processes of, say, an ant? Do you think an ant has any idea about the mental capabilities of a bird? Can a bird grasp the concepts or capabilities within the human brain? And the most important question of all - Do You Think the Cycle STOPS there - or are there consciousnesses that are greater than that of a human being that we humans have only the most rudimentary understanding of? Personally I believe the latter is the case, because WHY would it STOP with Humans...and if it DOES stop with Humans, if we are truly the highest form of consciousness in the Universe, then the God of the Bible MUST exist - because the Bible tells us that God created humans to be just that.

Cheers !

Actually they do believe that humans are the higest form of intelligence. That is the basis for humanist atheist thought. There is NOTHING higher or greater than mankind and we can't be wrong because we are so great, and we (individually) are the smartest (insert elitist) of the humans so therefore, anything you lesser humans claim is just the rantings of the ignorant barbarians.

It's funny that when looking back on all of the "barbarians" of history that they seem less barbaric than those calling them barbarians...lol


Jaden

So you proved that if god exists, he's a hypocrite and somewhat paradoxical. Congrats.

I see no proof here of anything existing or not existing, as usual, in these threads.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one less God than you.

When you understand why you dismiss all other Gods but yours, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

You know, the human brain is a remarkable thing, and it's been pretty remarkable for quite awhile. It has a wonderful ability to try and explain every situation and every occurence that it observes. It's Earth's first scientist (as far as we know).

Unfortunately, when our inner scientist encounters something it can't explain, it tries to fill in the gaps with something. When it can't think of anything logical it must find an explanation that answers the question in a way that won't leave more.

God! Now add in a class-based society with an aristocracy/monarchy that wants to keep the people in check, and you get religion!

It's just too bad for religious or theistic folk that if there truly was a God, then he/she/it/them wouldn't vary so greatly from person to person, region to region, country to country, era to era, and dynasty to dynasty.

I always think it's interesting when believers say things like, "Knowing God is a personal experience." or "You have to be open to accepting God for him to reveal him to you." or "God revealed himself to me in my own way."

Doesn't that just show that the mind is the constructor of God, and God is not the constructor of the mind?

reply to post by TruthParadox


LOL!

So let me get this straight...you are saying that the Bible (a book that you don't believe in) gives proof that God does not exist? That is circular logic and it is one of the biggest fallacies traps for any argument.

The Bible is a book, written by people. If you believe what the people wrote in the Bible, then it may provide some proof for you that God exists. If you don't believe in the Bible, or that it is true, then it indicates nothing except that the people who wrote it were wrong.

The existence of God does not depend upon the Bible. It is the Bible whose truth, depends upon the existence of God.

As I said before, my existence does not depend upon what is written in my journal. My journal owes its existence to me. See the distinction?

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by lunarminer

 

Originally posted by lunarminer
If Supreme Beings exist, then they exist. If they don't, well then they don't. We simply don't have enough information yet, to prove one way or the other.

But we DO have enough information!
Just read your Bible!
This is the God we are debating, and there is enough information in the Bible to disprove his existence numerous times over!
This is because the descriptions of God are contradictory in almost every way imaginable.

We can't disprove that God exists, but we can (and have) disprove that the God of the Bible exists. Either his description in the Bible is false or he does not exist.
Just read my signature.

He is given the attributes of:
omnipotent
omniscient
all loving, merciful

All can not be true.
That is one example of many. The pieces don't fit.

Oh but how wrong you ARE!!!!!!

All of these things can and ARE true.

It's like this.... You don't understand the nature of the universe....

If you can understand the following statement, then you can begin to understand the underlying nature of the current universe.

"Imagine something SOO big that it is small..... Now imagine something SOOO small that it is big, if you realize that they are one and the same, you have discovered the nature of the universe".

Jaden

I’m not going to go round and round with you guys on this but with my faith aside, anyone who claims after thousands of years of debate that they have proof of god not existing in ten seconds and posts it on a internet thread, is not educated enough to be having a rational conversation on the matter to begin with. I’m a Christian. You don’t believe in God..? And you know yourself to be right? Good for you. Then stop being so pissed about it, take pleasure in being the smart one and go enjoy life, instead of wasting it trying to fight something you don’t believe in…. Thank you, GOD bless and have a great day…

I would say a great Creator / architec/ all knowing infinite conciousness does exists, but that the God of the Bible and any other major religion is just a being who was worshipped by missunderstanding what and who they were.
They were far greater than we could ever imagine and those in power further propelled this myth for self benefit.


There is an all knowing , all being, but we don't meet him until this life passes. We are a part of IT so eventually we become one with it again by acending I think, and the life lessons we are learning now are those that help to better ourselves ( our soul ) so we may become better beings and be worthy and be able to understand " GOD" .

If we saw it now we wouldn't be ready for it. Maybe in i dunno a million years once I have lived many lives and learned what I am really and have evolved beyond this physicall exixtance, then I may become ready to be re-associated with the "GOD" but yea ....

And to the poster who imediately responded about santa, NOBODY worships santa, Nobody kills in the name of Santa, Cruisades for Santa Clause never happened, Stealing money is not caused by Santa.



Also, you did nothing to disprove the OP's " facts". He simply made an argument which you could not fault. You may be able to prove him wrong , but you have to bring something better than the Santa arguement.