North Dakota lawmakers vote that 'personhood' starts at conception

reply to post by Clearskies


Plan B, which is up for debate for being an "abortion technique" for an early embryo, is nothing more than two birth control pills. As I have stated above, someone could just take two birth control pills and have an "abortion" the same way as Plan B/the morning after pill. Therefore, Plan B would be impossible to regulate unless birth control pills became illegal.

Some people do believe that ALL forms of birth control are a type of abortion. But there is the reason for the pills. I can't really come up with one for condoms, but some people are against them, you'd have to ask them why.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
Of course. And the entire black market abortion thing is the sole SOLE reason why I am entirely against the anti-abortion movement. My mom had a good friend who came very close to dying from an infection in the late 60s because of a black market abortion. And my mom had patients who did die from these hotel room abortions, with poor equipment and skilled or unskilled doctors who can't possibly even do a decent job without the right tools. Thousands of women would die. Or they would go to other countries for abortions, which would be costly, and not an option for most.

I truly beleive that it is an intentional conspiracy to cover up the prevelance of hotel abortions, but at the moment I do not have the evidence to make a thread or article about it.

The 1960s version of "Our Bodies, Ourselves" (my mom has at least 4 versions of the book) includes an entire section on abortion, for the first time. It has a good section about these illegal abortions in hotel rooms, and it comes with a very graphic picture that, to me, trumps all the pictures that anti-abortionists throw around of dead fetuses. I won't even describe the picture here but if anyone is interested you can U2U me for the details or I can scan in the page somewhere.

Yeah. Not something you see on sidewalk picket lines too often.

Imagine if every person who has had an abortion was dead. My mom and my aunt would be dead, many more women that I know, and that you know. Neither my boyfriend or I would even be here.

Sadly, there are a lot of people that think that would be just deserts.

...
The kicker is that one of the men who was on the committee... his daughter is currently dealing with a very serious decision and she chose the same route as Palin's daughter. She's a really, really good friend of mine... but... you have to wonder.

It's all well and good that she kept the baby. I hope it was truly her choice though.

I think many of these women who come to really regret having an abortion were either pressured into it when they would rather have had the baby, or did not fully deal with the emotional issues surrounding the pregnancy.

It's so odd that guys are almost encouraged by their fathers to party and stuff... and girls are either really closely watched or ignored. I was really lucky and give personal freedom, while informed of the consequences of any actions that I may take. Have I made bad decisions? Um, of course, I'm 18, I don't live in a box. But I've learned from it, and I'm glad that I dealt with these issues NOW rather than in 10 years when I'm married.

I know tons of boys my age who lost their virginities at 12. So I think that is about average for males. I would venture... 15 or so as average for females. And even though many girls don't wait for marriage, they can still be considered "prude" if they wait even until age 17. Ridiculous, as you said, asme.

[edit on 2/18/2009 by ravenshadow13]

Abstinence is a good personal choice for some but it is not birth control for the simple reason that it does nothing to prevent conception between sexually active people. Should be easy to figure out, but you know...

It's like saying "You have this vaccine and this drug and this face mask that will prevent the flu--but if you don't breath in the germs, you're guranteed not to get the flu!"

I also object to the way that AO has of late become the "Pure Woman's Vanity." I do not feel like summerizing again, so please check out my Rats Thread

the lady that started the whole roe v wade lawsuit is now pro life. imagine that.

how about this, i will solve the abortion issue right this second:

wear a condom OR
take the morning after pill


OMG??

some of you might say, my god swatman just thought of something so advanced that our brains cannot comprehend.

i say to you, nope, its a well known fact


do one of the options above or do not have sex, because you are literally endangering a life thinking about abortion

have a nice day

reply to post by Clearskies


Did you know that that is a sweeping generalization because there is more than one type of birth control? The pill works 99% of the time if taken correctly with no medications or herbs (like St. John's Wort) which make it less effective. The rhythm method works something like 75% of the time.
www.fda.gov...

You can do more research on your own. But that statistic was wrong. I mean, maybe in general if you average them all together, but some types like the pill and the shot are 99%+ effective when used correctly.

Used correctly.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


And let us not forget that some birth control pills are prescribed for a myriad of reasons other than contraceptives. Should these people have to suffer through their medical conditions because some holier-than-though thinks birth control is immoral? No.

reply to post by Swatman


Well, some people want to classify the morning after pill/Plan B as a type of abortion because it is intended to destroy any growing zygote, if there is one. So that would be a problem, pretty much.

If Plan B is kept legal, the only other issue would be cases where people are pregnant but don't know it yet. Because, say, condoms sometimes have faults or can develop small tears. The FDA site just said that male condoms fail 14% of the time. I think that number may be smaller, but I don't know for sure. So a condom can fail, but sometimes you can't tell. So you think everything is fine. Maybe the pores in the latex of the condom were larger in one batch, or maybe it was expired, whatever. So someone gets pregnant and doesn't find out until they miss their period. Sometimes you can be pregnant and not miss a period, not have any symptoms until weeks, even over a month later. It happens a LOT. The morning after pill, obviously, is intended for ASAP, the next morning, or sooner. It says that it works up to a week after the intercourse. But basically, there are some cases where you just don't know until it's too late for the morning after pill.

Which is why I support correctly taking the birth control pill, or getting the shot (although I hear the shot has some bad side effects... spotting, nausea... etc.). Get checked out for the right hormone birth control combination for you.

reply to post by ravenshadow13

Birth control pills don't always work!
That's what I'm saying as well!
What about that (possible)
20% that you will STILL get PREGNANT?
That's not a small number when you are.
If you are dating a man(Or boy) who is not 'up to snuff' to be a good father, then you shouldn't have sex with him. Period!
I now have a good man and we have three children. We've been married 14 years.
When I had a fibroid tumor(and I was pregnant for the first time) we didn't know if it was cancer or not. I told my husband that I WOULD NOT GET chemo or have an abortion.
He cried because he was scared he would lose me, but in the end, it was just a normal fibroid.
How much respect would he have lost in me if I would've said, "It's ok lets have an abortion!"
I LOVE children!
Have you ever been around babies?

[edit on 18-2-2009 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
well heres the problem with your preference of staying out of other people's lives....if a person...scientifically, and medically is a person at conception...then abortion...is murder..and murder is against the law

Well, here's the problem I have with your argument. You used the word 'if'.

The word 'if' in your argument means that you're making a premise that may or may not be true. When you can support your argument that a person is a person at conception, then your conclusion of murder may be justifiable.

Without being able to support your conditional 'if', there is no way that you can conclude that a murder was committed.

reply to post by asmeone2


I started taking them for ovarian cysts that would burst, and a close friend of mine started taking them for polycystic ovarian syndrome and the hormonal effects from that.

I think direct hormone therapy would be the only way to help those cases if the pill was taken off the market, and the hormone therapy would be a lot riskier with more side effects and it would require more experimentation with dosage and absorption. And it may have more permanent effects, too.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Yeah, those cysts can be very serious.. even deadly in extreme cases. If some people had their way, poeple like you could end up dead or infertile.

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by ravenshadow13

If you are dating a man(Or boy) who is not 'up to snuff' to be a good father, then you shouldn't have sex with him. Period!

Why is it just the women's responsiblity?

Why isn't it also that men shoudl not have sex with women who are not fit to be a mother?

In many cases it's the man who pressures the women into having sex.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
Not only is abstinence not very realistic among modern teenagers, the same goes for condom use.

I don't know why but it seems that oral sex is so underrated by teens. It's a safer alternative than going all the way!

Those 92 politicians in North Dakota can't vote to ban oral, can they?

reply to post by Clearskies


Birth control pills work 95+% of the time when taken correctly. That means reading all the fine print and being careful about other medication you take, the time of the day you take the pill, and having regular checkups. The Depo Provera shot is rumored to work even higher than that. It's not a 20% chance of failure. Unless you can find me a statistic for that, haha.
www.loestrin24.com...

Loestrin® 24 Fe is a highly effective birth control pill with the lowest level of estrogen (20 mcg per pill) allowed by the FDA. When taken properly, Loestrin® 24 Fe is over 99% effective in preventing pregnancy. Like all birth control pills, Loestrin® 24 Fe prevents pregnancy by providing hormones (estrogen and progestin) that suppress ovulation (the maturing and release of an egg) and other related changes your body goes through in preparation for a pregnancy.

That's the one that I'm on, haha. Not saying it works for everyone, because I have a lot of estrogen so I needed one tailored to that (vs having less estrogen like my friend who took the same one from her doctor and got really sick, had to switch to a higher estrogen pill). But yeah, find me a stat saying that birth control pills have a 20% fail rate. Maybe some weird ones do, or natural ones, I dunno. Maybe they do when they aren't taken correctly (they often aren't taken at the same time each day, or are taken with chemicals that can make them less effective). But mmhmm, there's my statistic with accompanying link. And the personal experience to back it up.

reply to post by asmeone2


Because Ravenshadow is a woman.
If she were a guy, I would tell her the same thing, in a different way.
I have three sons, BTW, so I think I know a little about men's responsibilities.

reply to post by tezzajw


Hahaha they probably can! Oh, where's my quote...
here, from earlier in the thread

My best friend always says, if you think that a zygote has rights, then you'd better never waste sperm. Because every sperm COULD become a person, but they obviously all don't. Not all zygotes become fetuses. Not all fetuses naturally survive, even in the best conditions. So maybe masturbation will become illegal eventually, too. All those "maybe" babies have rights.

I could make about ten jokes right now, but I won't.

reply to post by tezzajw


Please, don't give them any ideas.

Originally posted by Clearskies
reply to post by asmeone2

 

Because Ravenshadow is a woman.
If she were a guy, I would tell her the same thing, in a different way.
I have three sons, BTW, so I think I know a little about men's responsibilities.

I'm talking about the entire spectrum.

It's as much a responsibility of men as woman.

If one says, Women should wait for a good father, they should also say that men should not pressure women.

reply to post by ravenshadow13

I don't know about 95+% of the time.
You don't know how MANY women I talk to who said that they got pregnant anyway.
LOTS!
I had the depo shot after my first son.
Some say it can lead to infertility,,.... It didn't me.
Anyway the morning after pill can lead to septicemia, because some of the embryo stays inside, creating infection.
Many women have died.

reply to post by Clearskies


Even if I was dating and intimate with the most "up to snuff" man in the world, I would still have an abortion or use Plan B or whatever it would take if I got pregnant somehow right now. Obviously I wouldn't, because I'm not dumb and I take precautions against that. But I don't want to have a family or ruin my chances of having a great career and attending college full time and all that. So you could then say, "well then don't have sex in the first place." To which I will say "Haha, good call, but fat chance that all the sexually active American teenagers will decide that that would be an awesome idea." It's a lot easier to use birth control. And cheaper. And more responsible. And more realistic.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


And to top if off, there are really no guarantees that the "up to snuff" man is actually going to turn out to be a good father. Many, many women have suffered through their husband doing an about-face after marraige or the birth of a child.