Western morals and ethics are based on judeo christian thought. i.e. The 10 commandments. What would you base your morals and ethics from without a god and what would be your incentive? Actions without consequences. Do you really think the world was a better place before Jesus Christ? Orgies, animal and human sacrifice, ritualistic cannibalism. Do you really think so called indigenous peoples were somehow enlightened and didn't brutally kill and make war with each other?

Everything you said about being fat, lazy, spoiled, materialism, not living simply is due to removal of god from the picture.

Instant gratification ,actions without consequences and greed.

Socialism is not superior and it has never worked.

Why do thousands of Cubans risk their lives every year in an attempt to reach America? It seems so simple, and in fact it is. This life is a survival of the fittest, it is human nature, and as long as humans are involved in the equation, Socialism will never work.

The old adage, give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, teach him to fish, he will eat for a lifetime is very pertinent to this discussion. If the government constantly gives men fish, why would they buy their own pole and bait a hook? The answer, they will not.

My compliments to the OP. Very interesting reading.

I especially like your take on "Idealism".
(Seems that when we idealize, it quickly becomes a hated subject)

I like some of your ideas very much.

And why is sharing frowned upon as a weakness ?

SailorinAZ didn't Jesus throw the money changers out of the temple ?

And about the idea "if you give people fish they will never learn to fish", is wrong. I see no problem even if people just sit and look at the sky all day, if that is what they want let them do it. They have everything, if that is their choice what is your problem ?
Do you think they need to be put to work ? Who told you "life needs to be hard" ? Why ? Read what I posted, the life of many tribal societies , they have much more free time than we.

There will be no government "giving people food". I said everyone will work for something like 8 years in agriculture, healthcare and education. And there will be plenty for all. No government giving but people giving to theemselves. Don't want to be in, you get nothing.

That does not mean you will not be free to grow your food and whatever you want. Of course there will be no money so there is no chance for you to get "rich" by hiring some "poor" people work for you - and say you are helping them. (there will be no more poor). Yes in the twisted world of today it can be said you are "helping them". But I said it in other places : when a car has square wheels, it does not matter if you fix the engine. That car is our society today.

[edit on 18-2-2009 by pai mei]

This most certainly is not about regulations.
It is about corrupted people who do not follow regulations.
System is not corrupted, people are.

Capitalism is fundamentally Lassez Faire. Microsoft got to be a monopoly because they used new and innovative ways of destroying their competition, not by competing fairly. And those new and innovayive ways were not illegal.

The system is corrupt in the sense that it enables abuse.

Capitalism has worked well enough for hundreds of years. About the only things that lasted longer are the nomadic hunter-gatherer societies, warlords, and feudalism. Real socialism hasn't even lasted long enough to come into existence, despite a hundred years or so of trying.

You'd have to be terribly naive, or convinced that the world is going to end if you think the capitalist system won't weather this depression as it's weathered dozens of others. America might lose some influence, but it's just one country in a world full of them.

BTW Great post OP!

Originally posted by mdiinican
Capitalism has worked well enough for hundreds of years.

Has it really? I guess that belief would depend on your perspective. If you happen to have been born in India, or Africa, or any other country that has been raped by western empires, you might not come to that same conclusion.

If you're lucky enough to be living where they enjoy much stolen wealth then OK, I can see where your narrow world view would think that.

The only reason capitalism has lasted any length of time is people keep chasing carrots. Capitalism promises you riches beyond your imagination, but very rarely delivers in the grand scheme of things. Money is more addictive than crack, and most people spend their whole lives chasing it in one way or another.

And the only reason capitalism has been of any success in the west is because the west made it's initial wealth through invading foreign countries for their resources, which included Human slavery. The wealth you toy with now was made years ago during the British Empire, and the Slave trade years in the US. Without this huge wealth creation, through theft of resources and labour, you would be no more wealthy than any other country. The US also did quite well off of WWII, which is why you have had a war based economy ever since, if it works capitalist will do it.

That also brings up Christianity, how can a Christian support such a corruptible, and corrupted, system that puts profits before people? A system that takes people to war, that leaves millions to die. Are Christians really that naive and so easily deceived? Would Jesus be a stock broker?

You'd have to be terribly naive, or convinced that the world is going to end if you think the capitalist system won't weather this depression as it's weathered dozens of others. America might lose some influence, but it's just one country in a world full of them.

Point is we're sick of having to weather these damned crisis's, and institutions, that capitalism creates. War, crime, poverty, government, naive armchair capitalists...Connect the damned dots....

[edit on 2/20/2009 by ANOK]

Originally posted by pai mei
The value of the wages in an enterprise is always just a fraction of the cost of the finished product. That is for all factories and hotels and whatever across the planet. What does that mean ? It means people will never be able to buy all that is produced. All the money go to the business owner. But how many finished products do they buy ?

All the money goes to the business owner? Really? That's not what you said in the first line and that does not happen in reality. When you work for a company, they pay you based on what they value your work to be. If you disagree with the wage they offer you, there is a simple solution. Quit. Find another job. Or better yet find a way to make yourself more valuable with more skills and more knowledge. Or even better than that, start your own business. Then you will see how much a business owner really keeps of the wealth he/she helped create.

Solution : credit. But now they turned off the money fountain (intentionally - people did not lose their jobs, then stopped buying ,it was the other way around). So people buy only what they really need, or not even that. And the system collapses. Very simple. There is not a shortage of products.

People stopped buying houses because they couldn't afford the ones they were in because they lied about their income. The government was the driving force in this endeavour was because of their so called good intentions by forcing banks to give loans to people who could not have previously been able to afford them. But that is not to say that some day they would not have been able to afford them if they saved up money to build up credit and get an affordable interest rate.

Capitalism, and the "economic need" are pyramid schemes. To satisfy the real needs it is enough for 10 % of the workforce to work. We could invent a system with no money, where people work let's say 8 years in agriculture, healthcare, schools and some light industry producing some stuff like clothing. Then they are changed by others. The rest of the time they do nothing and are provided with all these things for free. That does not mean they are forced to live only with those things.
Want more ? Gather people who want the same and do it. Improve your life beyond what you are provided, anyway you like.

They tried that. It was called communism and it was a miserable failure because then you have to define what the "real needs" are. What you are left with is the bare minimum. I mean I don't "need" 2 pairs of shoes, I could live my life with one. I don't "need" a tv, computer, vehicle, deodorant, all the variety of foods, etc to live. So why do I have them? Because I created my own wealth and chose to buy them with that wealth buy trading my time for a company's dollars. Never is any of part of me making money is involutary.

Money or credit will be BANNED, and that means we will never end up where we are now - working not because we need what we produce , but because we need money, and we have to have something "TO DO" to get them otherwise it does not fits into the crazy philosophy of "life is hard work".
People will do things only if they want to have them as an extra beyond the basics.

Who is going to decide what the "basics" are? You? Academia? Politicians? How about I decide what I want.

When they stop wanting them they stop working. Simple. Not like the death trap of the current system : "look nobody buys what I produce, what will I do ?". Nothing. As I said to cover real needs there is no need for 100% of the workforce to work.

Again you are going to have to devise a plan to determine what "real needs" are. What's wrong with supply and demand? I mean if I create a product or service that nobody wants, what right do I have to shove it down people's throats? On the other hand, say I create a better computer than any out there and people want it, what right do you have to limit their choices because they don't really "need" choices.

In a 1927 interview with the magazine Nation’s Business, Secretary of Labor James J. Davis provided some numbers to illustrate a problem that the New York Times called “need saturation.” Davis noted that “the textile mills of this country can produce all the cloth needed in six months’ operation each year” and that 14 percent of the American shoe factories could produce a year’s supply of footwear.

Yes but people are still in poverty in third world countries. They were surviving on "basic needs." Whats the best way out of poverty? Doing something of value for other people (your time for their money) so you can use that value to buy other things of value. Each individual has unique needs and wants that no government, no intellectual, no society can determine for that individual.

Now you will probably say that "the wages are too low for these people." Obviously this is not true because people line up for these sweatshop jobs in droves. Why you ask? Because it certainly is better than the alternative of trading nothing with other people. Don't believe me? Ask the 300 million people that in one generation moved out of abject poverty into what we consider middle class in the west.

[edit on 20-2-2009 by Cool Hand Luke]

Originally posted by pai mei
"When we are not working we are using resources". Do you believe yourself ? Have you seen the movies from the above post ? 90% of what is bought in USA is in the garbage in 6 months, that is our "great work". And needs to be that way, then new things need to be bought, else this crazy system collapses. We destroy the planet just to have something to do.

But you forget all these new things make our lives easier and better. If they didn't improve our lives there would be no demand for them. As far as "destroying the planet goes", are you suggesting we stop thinking and just leave nature as it is? Ground all airplanes, destroy all roads and rails, destroy all housing because god knows *gasp* they use trees, stop using paper to write? Stop heating our homes?

So : you work 8 years, then you are free. Nobody makes you do or not do anything, you can work if you want.

There are many people who could get away with working for 8 years and retiring but don't. Why? Because they like to think. And their thinking, like everyone else's thinking, improves our lives. I have no doubt that in 200 years time people will work very little because machines will do all of the grunt work. But you still need thinkers to design things. That is something machines will never be able to do.

"Miserable life" ? "mediocre products" ? Yes I know you like having slaves work for you now. Maybe they hate their jobs but what do you care, you are comfortable.

Slaves? Show me a business in North America that forces you to work for them. When you work for a company or start your own, you do so voluntarily. If you don't like your job quit and go pick up a welfare check and live on your "basic needs."

Don't want my system ? Go and find a slave master, that is a slave himself to some money creator, and work for him. Alone and fighting all the others for survival or for a bigger TV, while others don't have enough to eat - and nobody needs them or their "work". You can have your capitalist territory and look with envy at the crazy people next door that do nothing all day, just work in their garden for pleasure or travel or sit with their friends or whatever. And have no money and need no money.

Ask those people in third world nations who have no money how great their life is. As far as needing them for their work, yes we do. It is called outsourcing and improves their lives and ours. Theirs because they earn money. Ours because they give us cheaper products. But people like you want to keep them from attaining any sort of wealth because you romanticize their life without money.

In developed countries 3% of the workforce work in agriculture and they have more than enough food. Add more for education and health and you get kind of 20% the max. 1/5 of the work time of let's say 40 years is 8 years. More than enough.

But it was not always this way. The majority of the population used to work in agriculture. Remember all those new and "useless" things people create that you were talking about earlier? Well people created new ploughs, new tractors, new pesticides, new trains, new trucks, new irrigation etc so that fewer people needed to work in agriculture to feed the population.

The disappearance of money is very important for a real civilized society to form. There will be no more crime - nothing to steal. Steal what ? Food which is free for everybody ?

So you are suggesting that a society that has nothing of value is a great thing because then their is nothing to steal? Look at the nations that have little or no money, this is your utopia?

The only reason for organized crime will remain slavery. I am sure most rich people of today would hate my system. Not having anyone to do stuff for them, and having no means to lure people or to force people to work for them.

Who is forcing anybody to work for them or buy their products or services? You would also hate your system because trading would cease and you would be a slave to a fellow man based on his needs and not your own.

Today is very simple to have a slave cook your food, clean your house and so on if you have money. His survival depends on it.

Nobody forced him/her to work for their employer. So why do they do this jobs? Because they get something of value out of it.

"It's his fault, he should have gotten a better education, and then a better job" some say. Yes sure. Maybe he did not have the chance.

Ah yes the old "he didn't have the opportunity to accomplish anything" line. In the first world nations that is a joke. My dad with a hundred dollars and 8 kids managed to feed them, clothe them, shelter them, educate them etc.. and now owns two homes, two vehicles, makes $60,000 a year all with a grade 4 education. How did he do it? He found jobs that he was good at and was paid well. Then by using his brain he made his job and other workers jobs more efficient and got a better job.

And who will do all the dirty or repetitive and boring jobs if everybody will be a manager ?

Machines.

Capitalism and today;s society is based on slavery, without the threat to their survival there would be no people for those jobs.

Capitalism is based on voluntary trade for mutual benefit.

This life is more than survival,

I agree. But how do we survive even at the most basic level? We have to think. Thinking is what has brought us our quality of life and will continue to make life easier or better. You are suggesting that people should stop thinking and start wishing. You can wish all you want but it will not produce one loaf of bread.

People want to be part of something , and seek a group to belong to.

You may think that way but I don't. I don't want to be a part of any group. I want to be me and no one else can define what I am. I don't want anyone telling me how to live, what to eat, what to do with the wealth I have created.

They would work for that group for "free" if allowed to.

Meaning they trade nothing of value to the other person? That is a slave my friend.

Originally posted by aaa2500
Capitalism CAN work, but only if it is well regulated. Capitalism without regulation will end up having a single monopoly.

Show me any where in history where one company has had a monopoly in the free market. All monopolies have been created by force (government). A private business only remains in existence so long as they have customers. No customers, no business.

As long as the top of the pyramid of capitalism is the 1% that have more wealth than the other 99%, capitalism is a human failure.

When companies call there workers "Dead Peasants" you know the system has failed.

Greed has poisoned the well of capitalism. Corporations treat the front line worker like slaves, and there CEO's like Kings.

We have returned to the time of nobility and serfs, and it was slowly done right under our very noses.

[edit on 31-10-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 31-10-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

I wanted to point out that on paper America looks very wealthy. But when most of that wealth is concentrated in a small minority group, then the country may as well not have that wealth at all for the good it does the country.

Go look up some real statistics and you'll discover America is not on the top of many, if any, of them. That's because the wealth of America is an illusion, it's here sitting in private bank accounts not benefiting the country at all, only a small minority of private individuals.

That is why your health care system is a mess.
That is why the economy is going to crap.
That is why you invade foreign countries.
That is why resources are wasted on crap we don't need, while others die from a lack of resources. Do you want a $300 pair of jeans, or save someones life? We should be using our resources for people directly, not to make useless products to line the pockets of private individuals. We ARE a society, America refuses to see the forest and wants to pretend there are only disconnected trees. The World is a SOCIETY and we should act like it is if we want things to get better.

more people died in the name of their gods then any other cause
it's fine to worship whatever you want but the moment you bring it outside your home and into public you start ENFORCING what you believe onto others and no one has a right to do that

remember that period of time when Bishops had more power then kings?

we called it the Dark Ages

Religion doesn't teach us anything we can't teach ourself as a matter of fact the only thing it teaches us is "follow this train of thought or burn in hell/be unworthy" and creates a bigger gap between people

Religion is the main source of pain on this planet.

Originally posted by SailorinAZ
Western morals and ethics are based on judeo christian thought. i.e. The 10 commandments. What would you base your morals and ethics from without a god and what would be your incentive? Actions without consequences. Do you really think the world was a better place before Jesus Christ? Orgies, animal and human sacrifice, ritualistic cannibalism. Do you really think so called indigenous peoples were somehow enlightened and didn't brutally kill and make war with each other?

Everything you said about being fat, lazy, spoiled, materialism, not living simply is due to removal of god from the picture.

Instant gratification ,actions without consequences and greed.

Socialism is not superior and it has never worked.

Why do thousands of Cubans risk their lives every year in an attempt to reach America? It seems so simple, and in fact it is. This life is a survival of the fittest, it is human nature, and as long as humans are involved in the equation, Socialism will never work.

The old adage, give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, teach him to fish, he will eat for a lifetime is very pertinent to this discussion. If the government constantly gives men fish, why would they buy their own pole and bait a hook? The answer, they will not.