The Oldest Conspiracy in History !!!!

Originally posted by houseboy
Your argument seems to pre-suppose the existence of God (I may be wrong) but if we discount the idea of free will then no-one (Hitler included) can be blamed for their actions.

It actually isnt my argument. I was just summarizing one philosophical arguments made famous in medieval times regarding free will.

Here is another summary.

oohlah.wordpress.com...

Originally posted by houseboy
Does this mean that we should allow those guilty of atrocities (genocide, serial killings, child abuse, etc.) walk free or do we lock up "innocent" people because innocent they are if their actions are pre-destined?

If no one had free will because of Gods omniscience, then we also would not be free. Whatever we ended up doing to such people would also be pre-determined by God. What it would mean is that none of us including Hitler could be said to bear blame for what they did. The blame would fall squarely on God, who, all knowing, created the creatures knowing they would do exactly what they did. Knowing they had no choice but to do what an all knowing and all powerful being created them to do.

Originally posted by houseboy
Of course we don't live in a vacuum and our free will is limited by the actions of others and circumstancies. Good and evil, whatever they be, is part of all this, thus the taking of of the fruit by Adam & Eve was an act of free will, but according to your argument it was pre-ordained by God. Why would God tell them not to eat of the fruit whilst all the time knowing that they would??

That would be a good question. Why would God do that?

Understand, it is not my argument. It is just a relatively famous argument among Christian philosophers. And it is a particularly sticky one. Because of the assumption that God is all knowing and all powerful. The conclusion that there can be no free will logically derives IF the premises are true and God in fact IS all knowing and all powerful.

One could assume that God is not all knowing and all powerful, which would argue for free will. But there are also logical arguments (also philosophical) that God MUST be all knowing and all powerful or God cannot be God.

These arguments were made primarily in medieval times, by famous Christian philosophers. And there is no consensus. My point is only that one should examine for oneself whether or not free will can just be assumed without reasoning it through. Most people just assume it. And never reason it through. However many important Christian philosophers DID feel one needed to reason it through.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by badmedia
Good and evil serve the purpose of bringing about that wisdom, but the point is to still understand the different and make the wise choice. How can you move beyond what you do not understand? To say neither is really true is IMO, to miss the individual point/purpose.

I guess the question I would have, is how do you define evil then? If evil can serve good, by bringing wisdom, is it truly evil? Evil is usually contrasted with good, being its opposite. So, where evil would be, there could be no good. But if evil can serve a good purpose, to bring about understanding and wisdom, is there not some good in evil?

Maybe you use a different definition for evil than "lack of any good." Which is why I am asking.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
I guess the question I would have, is how do you define evil then? If evil can serve good, by bringing wisdom, is it truly evil? Evil is usually contrasted with good, being its opposite. So, where evil would be, there could be no good. But if evil can serve a good purpose, to bring about understanding and wisdom, is there not some good in evil?

Maybe you use a different definition for evil than "lack of any good." Which is why I am asking.

Well there are 2 levels of evil really. There are the wicked, and then their is the poor in spirit. The poor in spirit are just ignorant in what they do, and bless them father for they know not what they do. The wicked however are not ignorant, they know the truth and they deliberately work to keep others ignorant and under control for their own gain. To know the truth and work against it is to blasphemy the holy spirit/truth.

The poor in spirit do not know the truth, and so once they see the truth they will accept it. They are not evil, they are deceived. Which will become apparent to all during the time of revealing(now IMO). The true evil is those who work to keep people ignorant and such.

There can be good without evil. You just wouldn't be able to understand why it is good without also understanding why evil is bad. IE: no wisdom. Both exist and you are capable of both, it's a matter of what you choose.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I take your point. It would seem the arguments in this thread depend on your view of God's existence or otherwise. If you take God out of the picture this argument becomes a discussion on free will versus determinism, an area that I am familiar with, as opposed to a discussion about the bible, an area that I am less "knowledgable" about. However, I think that most people (myself included) believe the story of Adam and Eve to be allegorical (surely only the most fundemental believers actually think it is true?) and this brings us back to the free will argument doesn't it? Feel free to tell me if I'm going off thread here and I'll clear off to philosophy.

Did God, when placing this tree and telling not to eat from it, really expect humans would not choose to eat from it?

What if Adam and Eve did not do it, but some of their offspring or somebody later in history. The more people on earth the higher the risk would become that somebody would make the error...

Free will is like a random number generator, eventually every option will be reached.

reply to post by houseboy

I agree. Good and evil arent tangible, existing things. They are merely concepts created by the minds of men to separate "them" from "us". Having only good or evil is completely impossible, because one cannot exist without the other. Without good actions, nothing could be evil by relativity. Of course, there are things that should and should not be done by people, but you cant label anything anyone did as good or evil, because every action has both outcomes.

Originally posted by Grandma
What makes you think he was covering up. He told them up front they could eat of any tree in the garden except the Tree of Good and Evil. There was no secret here. They knew what the situation was. They chose to listen to Satan's lies instead of God. Plain and simple!

You are gravely mistaken. You mention "Satan's lies" when in fact he merely said they would not die from eating the fruit. They ate the fruit and still lived. I call that truth.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Hi ZeroKnowledge!

"I just want to add a little twist to the story - as it is told, God did not say to Adam not to touch,only not to eat. But Adam told to Eve that touching,not only eating is wrong and punishable."

You must have one of these New Age Bibles or something, because in my KJV Bible there is no "twist" to the story. Please show me where you have read this "twist" in the Bible, and which version of the Bible was it ?

"So according to some interpreters, snake first pushed Eve so she would touch a tree, and when she touched it unwillingly and nothing happened, then snake's job in convincing her to eat was easier."

Always risky listening to experts and interpreter's as there is no guarantee they have a clue what they are talking about, better to go to the source of all things and see for yourself.

"So to go along with your analogies - conspiracies and lies go together, but most successful ones are when previous semi-truths are used."

Good point - I also think so, just not on this topic.

"By the way, God < -> puppet master connection:
If God is all powerful and whole creation is its doings and part of it, then not only Adam and Eve are part of the play.
All world's a stage..."

Not sure who you are implying is the puppet master ? God or Satan ? If God were a puppet master, I can't see why he would have bothered with creating humans, seems a bit of a waste to see all that hard work being destroyed. God gave free-will, it's up to us to exercise it, he also gave man dominion over the earth. If you remember the story of Jonah and the Whale, you can see how sometimes God does interfere with Man's free-will on occasion, and this story shows you he can do some quite convincing things to make you go back on the right path. Of course Satan is doing the same thing all the time through ego-boosting, greed, envy, hate - all the negative stirring-up of people etc.

"However once you add the principle of freedom of the will , then it is much more complex. If free will exists (and i so far have trouble accepting/understanding its existence) then the issue with God's ultimate control is not relevant to us. Choices and decisions are ours."

If you are not sure about free will - try testing it out see if you can stand up right now from your seat, see if God or Satan will paralyse you from doing so?

We all have a choice to make, and in the end it's the only one that really matters in life. Death is really life's only certainty. It is probably the only thing which comes close to being a near-solid fact (I can't say 100% certainty, because according to the Bible at the return of Jesus Christ, born-again believers will not see death but will be translated into new bodies, like Jesus had after the resurrection) What happens after death ?

Does God exist ? Will there be a judgement ? Is there heaven and hell ? What should I do about spiritual growth, should I be concerned ?

Because, if I am right and the Bible is God's only truth written for us, and later-on everything happens as it is written and you are stood in front of Jesus Christ in his judgement seat, what are you going to say ? Do you know that the Bible says that God can remember every word that any of us ever uttered during our entire lifetime? I can't remember what I said yesterday half of the time, can you ?






[edit on 20-2-2009 by blj_777]

Originally posted by Grandma

Originally posted by helloblaine


quote]
But alas, no perfect God would have such restrictions, and he would hav openly stated the situation rather than covering things up.

What makes you think he was covering up. He told them up front they could eat of any tree in the garden except the Tree of Good and Evil. There was no secret here. They knew what the situation was. They chose to listen to Satan's lies instead of God. Plain and simple!


Peace to you,
Grandma

Grandma, peace to you.

All is All. To know Good and Evil means to have experienced Good and Evil. To know what to do to obtain life, is to know what to do to give life...please read Isaiah.

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

NOTE: * Dirt is free, Water is free, Air is free, sunlight is free....Things that are free need no help in being translated or known because they are true. To be truly free, you have to be free.

Isa 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isa 45:16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Isa 45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
Isa 45:20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

Little trivia. Name comes from Nama and originally meant "reputation", that is "what about you is known by others either good or bad".

Like aboriginal names or "Tribe" names. A name back then was a story in itself, that told you the character of the person. It is "their word".

Peace

General question to all out there regardless of religious orientation. Would it ever be right to kill a child? The answer to the overwhelming majority would be, I think, no!! Now, supposing we had time travel, how many people would go back in time to kill the child named Adolf Hitler (or indeed any other genocidal maniac), to save the lives of milions of innocent people? The answer would , probably, be yes. Where is the good and where is the evil here? Evil would kill a child, of that there is no doubt! The destruction of millions of lives is evil also, isn't it? Which is the greater evil? The murder of a child or the destruction of a nation or people? We are not really in a position to judge because we all have our own biases, whatever they be. Right and wrong, good and evil, God and Satan, are all just points of view. This is why I believe that free wil exists, to give people the opportunity to differentiate between that which they believe to be right and that which they believe to be wrong. Adam and Eve (if there were such characters) made a decision to do that which was "evil" and the result was, for better or worse, the enlightenment of mankind.
In which direction does the evil lie?

Perhaps the oldest consiracy in the world is religious leaders preying upon the mystery of death and the wonder at the nature of everything that goes along with being human. Humankind has been enslaved by the fear mongering and fantastical myths of organized religion from the day we first formed communities.

God save us from priests, pundits, politicians and preachers.

There is a gnostic myth that talks of Yaldabaoth.

en.wikipedia.org...

Yaldabaoth couldn't see that anything came before him, and declared himself God almighty. Sophia the mother of Yaldabaoth, saw when Yaldabaoth created eden, that the prohibition of the Tree of knowledge was not fair for humans. So she disguised herself as a snake and said eat of the tree so you may know who you are.

Sokrates: Know thyself and you will know the universe

It seems Selfknowledge is high on the list, throughout many spiritual practises.

reply to post by scratchmane


Self-knowledge is high on the list of many beliefs, high on the list of banned things!! It seems that all through history and in nearly all religions free thinkers have been condemmed. Anyone who dared to ask questions regarding the religion of their particular society would be vilified, ostracised or even (often?) put to death. We are even seeing the rise of such intolerance again and it is important to put an end to it now. I have no idea if God exists or not (neither has anyone else, regardless of what they might actually believe) and I have no problem with those who have a firm faith (I am at times envious of these people in a way) but when fanatics and organised religion (of whatever faith) start killing in "God's name" we have to have a serious look at the sanity of those involved. Without any absolute concrete proof of a God or Gods we might just as well kill in the name of the tooth fairy or Father Christmas. As the man said," I have great difficulty in believing in some of the things that are here, let alone those that are not".

Ah! the old god argument eh!

I have often wondered what god was doing for an eternity before hitting on the idea of creating feeble, ignorant child-like mortals, knowing in advance that they would be disobedient, and therefore would require a sound, fatherly thrashing. And even a goodly drowning, as if they were merely excess kittens on a farm.

I have often wondered why it is that so powerful a being, needs defending by those very same creatures.

Perhaps we are missing some small but significant thing, which makes sense of the whole business. Perhaps the thing is so childish, that we, as mature adults, might never see it.

Thus, without seeing through a child's eyes, we will never get to the truth.

But if we did sea, wood won selebrate? Know, sertainly knot. How on earth can an adult cee with the ies of a CHILD?

But what if the chi is 'eld there? As the dim witted cockney might say. Even his mate, another cockney, might add, while stuffing ice up an 'ens bottom: 'ere, wot's all this abart a CHILD then? Hurry up son, i'm getting chilled 'ere.

Perhaps that's why we read of a god-child's birth, and the visit from magi, and the carrying away into Egypt. Sort of little clues, like crumbs for hungry mice, scurrying and rooting among the ancient letters and symbols.

Perhaps Jews, Greeks and Romans in Egypt have the answer to it all.

Perhaps those funny little pictures of ancient Egypt hold the keys.


Perhaps I'd better go.

regards all.

Not sure what all that was about in the last post but you sure are right about one thing, why does an all-powerful, omnipotent being need to be defended by the mere mortals it created? This is the one argument above all others that I have used against those who would "defend the faith". The only thing being defended is religion itself. The only thing people martyr themselves to is religion. The only thing that these lunatics kill for is religion (and I mean all religions because it has been going on for centuries in the name of all religions). Persecution has gone on in the name of religion only. God, whatever he, she or it is, doesn't even come into the equation. There may be a God, who knows (I'm actually agnostic, not aetheistic) and I'm sure if there is this God wouldn't want that which it created to destroy itself in "his" name. The conspiracy is man made, not God made.

reply to post by houseboy


I am 100% with you...Whay can't people swallow that pill?