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The Oldest Conspiracy in History !!!!

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posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 03:40 PM
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I'm going to open this post with a quote from one of my favourite films - Revolver. (Jake Green) One thing I've learned in the last seven years: in every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former.

Just run that quote a couple of times backwards and former through the mind. It says it all about con's, deceptions, secrets and lies.

Conspiracy - is the coordinated and systematic effort of a group of individuals to cover over the truth by a blanket of lies. The best friend of Mr Lie is Mr Secret, the two work well together in covering over the truth and leading to a deception. The best con tricks are pulled by a group of hustler's who all work together on the victim, and eventually gain his confidence and clean him out. The BBC series Hustle, shows this quite well how they come up with intricate schemes and introduce themselves as separate people and never reveal to the victim that they know each other and are in a team. They say, you can never con an honest man, because they always target a person's greed to get something for nothing, and it usually involves an immoral or dishonest practice, so they can't go to the police afterwards?

I personally believe that the major thing wrong with the political systems is the keeping of secrets from the public. It should not be secret, for example how much the tax payer has just paid for the politician's lunch, or how much the tax payer just paid to repair the mayor's bathroom, I have heard examples in France of a toilet seat replacement, most likely due to the bottom that has grown fat from all of those free meals, costing the tax payer 600 Euros. I guess some relative was in the toilet seat business. Total transparency is vital to avoid the abuse of power and nepotism and favouritism which is all the rage among our leaders today.

The oldest conspiracy on record is the following :

(Genesis 2:16-17) 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

(Genesis 3:1-6) 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Later on in the Bible it is of course revealed that the serpent is Satan, the father of lies, cons, pain, & deception. See how he works the con, he first checks out the victims knowledge and susceptibility, asking did God not say ? She replies saying of the tree in the midst of the garden, not saying of the tree of knowledge. then she repeats the warning from God. The con man sees his chance to make an appeal to the Ego and offer something of value, to obtain of course something of much greater value, that the victim does not know they are going to loose (her soul). The con comes - "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Satan is introducing the first conspiracy theory, "enlightening" the victim and offering to make her like God - she chose to believe in Satan and disbelieve




posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by blj777
 


Well explained summary on the subject. By the way, was that serpent really the bad guy? Couldn’t it be the real evil was that “God”, trying to keep man & woman dumb prisoners by not allowing them to develop mentally = to “eat” the (apple of) truth...? In other words, who was the REAL first conspirator/liar, the serpent or that “God”?

Sometimes, the most brilliant deceit is to make people believe truth was con...


[edit on 17-2-2009 by CoolBlackHole]



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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Yeah, "God" surely looks like the puppet master here, keeping his "dummies" in line, to do his bidding.

A righteous god would have told his people the woes of intelligence, and not simply said that they have died once obtaining knowledge.

Maybe the point of this story is the old "I wish I never would have known" sort of moral. Sometimes innocence is bliss, and maybe this god was trying to protect his people, and help to keep their bliss. But alas, no perfect god would have such restrictions, and he would have openly stated the situation rather than covering things up.



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by helloblaine


quote]
But alas, no perfect God would have such restrictions, and he would hav openly stated the situation rather than covering things up.


What makes you think he was covering up. He told them up front they could eat of any tree in the garden except the Tree of Good and Evil. There was no secret here. They knew what the situation was. They chose to listen to Satan's lies instead of God. Plain and simple!


Peace to you,
Grandma



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 07:37 PM
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From your .line I knew without reading that this was anti-christian...

sigh...

ther is no originality in these posts anymore.



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 11:22 PM
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Did it ever occur to you that perhaps falling was part of the plan, the serpent did what it was supposed to do, and mankind did what it was supposed to do, we were given free will, do you really think any kind of being able to construct creation would be so stupid as to go if i give these things the ability to think for themselves, tell them please dont do this, but then put something there which tells them its ok (baring in mind they dont have intellect to see a lie or deception), and then be shocked when they eat the fruit.

Yes well done genius you've just proved that god is the big bad from the very start, wow how did nobody ever spot that before, it sure is a good thing your here to show us the big picture.

Its been a bumpy ride but well get there in the end



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 11:31 PM
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Knowledge is power and that can definitely change ones life. To me it sounds more like a basic lesson in life than anything. You learn what ever you want while you are here. Reality is a state of mind. You choose to do as you will and that is free will.


[edit on 17-2-2009 by 12.21.12]



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 11:32 PM
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The only place that I know of in the Bible that it is said the serpent is referring to the Devil is in Revelation.. which is a kabbalistic (aka Hellenistic) prophecy anyway. In the rest of the Bible it is referring to the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49).

Is there any other reference to the serpent speaking about being the Devil and/or Satan? Satan, when studied closely is actually a part of our own selves that is willing to test/tempt our own hearts.. to know the reasons for why we do the things we do.



[edit on 17-2-2009 by justamomma]



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 11:38 PM
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I dont interpret that part of Genesis the way many do. I dont see it as God preventing humans from knowing something they should know, nor do I see "Satan" as giving them access to some truth.

When God creates the world in Genesis, after each phase of creation he called it all "Good." He created nothing "not-good."

When humans ate the fruit they "sinned" but sin did not mean in the past a moral crime. It meant "mistake" or "to miss the mark." Thinking what is all inherently "good" or whole, can be divided into "good/evil" or "good/not good" is a mistake.

When God is "punishing" them, it sounds more to me like he is reading a laundry list of the consequences of thinking this way, not imposing a punishment. He is telling them what life lived under the illusion of duality will entail.

On it goes until Jesus comes along, and begins to emphasize "non-judgment" in an attempt to undo the "mistake" of dualism.



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 11:46 PM
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The imperfection of humanity is actually better known Free Will; quite the perfection if you ask me. There was no mistake on the part of G.d. He is a G.d that wanted us to take part in the creation process which can only be done if one has *drum roll* free will. Thus, G.d set up the whole scenario on the garden of Eden (which honestly.. it is an allegory, ya know) and here we are, thousands upon thousands of years later, still believing in the events as they were written in a literal sense; or trying to analyze something that really is quite straightforward; and/or beating one another over the . via manipulations and scare tactics of eternal punishments and rebuking Satan from one another.

G.d is quite clear... he created both good AND evil. So, in essence, it all comes from the same singularity and thus... it is quite simple. Live and learn along with Live and let live.



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by justamomma


G.d is quite clear... he created both good AND evil. So, in essence, it all comes from the same singularity and thus... it is quite simple. Live and learn along with Live and let live.


Could you point me to the portion of genesis where God creates evil? Or is it in another text? No Bible I have ever seen has God calling into created existence evil.

Edit to add; Though you use the word "singularity" you are missing the literal point of a "singularity." No division. Which is what I am arguing God created, and that our seeing division where there is none is the "mistake."

"Free will" is what allows us to choose to see division where none inherently is, but it sounds to me that God is saddened that we will suffer unnecessarily. We will live in Eden while laboring under the illusion that we have been cast out. When Jesus comes along, he tries to point out that heaven is here on Earth, and that you can enter into it "like a child" when you are innocent of judgment.



[edit on 17-2-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 07:08 AM
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The whole concept of God being good or evil reminds me of a discussion I had some years ago. God, according to the bible, is omnipotent, all powerful and the source of everything. There is nothing that God cannot do by the very nature of what God is. Also, God is love and cannot do evil. These two statements to start with are contradictory: either God can do evil or there is something that he cannot do and therefore he is not omnipotent. If God did not create evil then who or what did? If evil came from another source then God is not the creator of everything there is. Logically we can't have it both ways. Incidentally, if Satan is a "fallen angel" why did he fall: what caused him to become evil if there was no evil in the universe in the firstplace?
It must, of course, be remembered that I am simply talking theoretically as we have no proof of the existence of God or Satan anyway. Many, myself included, think that good & evil only exist in dualistic thinking anyway and that there is actually no difference because even in our world what is good in one society may be seen as bad (or evil) in another. Good and evil are often simply points of view.



posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by CoolBlackHole
reply to post by blj777
 


Well explained summary on the subject. By the way, was that serpent really the bad guy? Couldn’t it be the real evil was that “God”, trying to keep man & woman dumb prisoners by not allowing them to develop mentally = to “eat” the (apple of) truth...? In other words, who was the REAL first conspirator/liar, the serpent or that “God”?

Sometimes, the most brilliant deceit is to make people believe truth was con...


[edit on 17-2-2009 by CoolBlackHole]


I have met many people who have had the same idea. Me, I do not take something that has been 'handled' by man for thousands of years and base it as truth. Even the gnostic texts that have been burried for the past 2000 years do not have the 'base' of truth, for it has gone through 'mans' interpretation and that is enough to scue the truth of things.
I guess that is why they say the best way to lead is by example!



posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 11:11 AM
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I just want to add a little twist to the story - as it is told, God did not say to Adam not to touch,only not to eat. But Adam told to Eve that touching,not only eating is wrong and punishable. So according to some interpreters, snake first pushed Eve so she would touch a tree, and when she touched it unwillingly and nothing happened, then snake's job in convincing her to eat was easier.
So to go along with your analogies - conspiracies and lies go together, but most successful ones are when previous semi-truths are used.

By the way, God < -> puppet master connection:
If God is all powerful and whole creation is its doings and part of it, then not only Adam and Eve are part of the play.
All world's a stage...

However once you add the principle of freedom of the will , then it is much more complex. If free will exists (and i so far have trouble accepting/understanding its existence) then the issue with God's ultimate control is not relevant to us.Choices and decisions are ours.


[edit on 18-2-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]



posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 11:33 AM
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People always seem to forget this part:

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If you want to eat off the tree of life, then you need wisdom and to choose good again. Knowledge of both good and evil, and then the wisdom to choose the correct one.



posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge

However once you add the principle of freedom of the will , then it is much more complex. If free will exists (and i so far have trouble accepting/understanding its existence) then the issue with God's ultimate control is not relevant to us.Choices and decisions are ours.


IF being the major point here. There are long, (and some quite boring) arguments regarding free will in Philosophy. Most proposed by religious philosophers, not surprisingly.

But one that is compelling is, in summary, that free will not only does not exist, but cannot exist.

IF God is omnipotent, and omniscient, which most argue God is and must be, then God knows everything that has happened, will happen, and is happening. Nothing is outside of Gods knowledge, hence, omniscient.

If God has the power to create, which most involved in the Abrahamic traditions assume he does, then nothing exists without Gods permission.

So, if God knows that a genocidal maniac such as Hitler will do what he does, and he permits his birth or creation, then God is willingly creating Hitler. Hitler himself would have no free will. God knew before his creation that he would do exactly what he did. God could have chosen to create circumstances that would have led to Hitler2, a kinder gentler Hitler, but the all powerful and all knowing God chose to set into action the causes that created Hitler1. The evil Hitler.

There are responsibilities that come from being all knowing and all powerful, and one of these is taking full responsibility for your knowing creation. Which would mean that free will doesnt really exist.



posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


Or, all you need to do is see past "good and evil" or duality.

When one falls into judgment, without the eternal overview that God has, one sees all things as dualistic. Life/Death, Good/Evil, Night/Day. From Gods view above Earth, though he could recognize, "it is day there in Israel," he would also see that "it is night on the other side of the world." Although God may recognize the apparent duality, omniscience and transcendence would allow God to see these apparent divides in a whole other way. As apparent halves to something inherently whole.

Perhaps to eat of the tree of life, all one needs to do is look past apparent death. Now that you "know" the difference, you can see the apparent divide, perhaps eternal life is had not by eating a literal fruit, but to see and accept that life IS eternal, and that death is only an apparent reality. That the division itself is unfounded from a Gods eye perspective. After all, I can look a table top from above, and see it is top. And then lay underneath the table and see it is bottom. And while I can never see both sides of the table at the same time, I need to be in one spot or the other, I can understand that top and bottom are labels for something that is not really divided.



posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Seeing beyond good and evil is just to see a higher purpose, IE: you can't understand good if you don't understand evil. I understand the overall purpose and reason of things, and beyond the good and evil side. In the end, evil serves the purpose of good by bringing understanding and so on. I think it is the Hindu religion where the angels and demons hug at the end of each age.

However, to have wisdom is to have knowledge and make good judgments based on it. This is knowing the difference between good and evil. This is not to judge other people, but to make good judgments for yourself. Such is wisdom, and such is what the father gives. More valuable than any material wealth. Good and evil serve the purpose of bringing about that wisdom, but the point is to still understand the different and make the wise choice. How can you move beyond what you do not understand? To say neither is really true is IMO, to miss the individual point/purpose.






[edit on 18-2-2009 by badmedia]



posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 02:38 AM
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Reply to Illusionsaregrander.

I have had many of the arguments about free will and I have to admit that I lie on the side of free will itself. Your argument seems to pre-suppose the existence of God (I may be wrong) but if we discount the idea of free will then no-one (Hitler included) can be blamed for their actions. Does this mean that we should allow those guilty of atrocities (genocide, serial killings, child abuse, etc.) walk free or do we lock up "innocent" people because innocent they are if their actions are pre-destined? Of course we don't live in a vacuum and our free will is limited by the actions of others and circumstancies. Good and evil, whatever they be, is part of all this, thus the taking of of the fruit by Adam & Eve was an act of free will, but according to your argument it was pre-ordained by God. Why would God tell them not to eat of the fruit whilst all the time knowing that they would??

[edit on 19-2-2009 by houseboy]

[edit on 19-2-2009 by houseboy]

[edit on 19-2-2009 by houseboy]



posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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Why where we supposed to fall is an excellent question.

If you look at the evidence, its clear that humanity was set up to fall.

I would suggest it was so that the Divine was able to experience the full scope of creation, instead of just the stagnant perfection that existed in the beginning and will exist again in the end.

The different religions dress this up in different ways, but most of them contain some portion of the concept.

The truth requires more focused REAL study into the spiritual / non physical realms, at the moment we are just debating the different mystic philosophies without any real framework to reference.




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