More Parents Refusing Vaccines For Kids

Originally posted by Jenna

1: Early Thimerosal Exposure and Outcomes at 7 to 10 years

Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association

Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence From Danish Population-Based Data

Association between Thimerosal Containing Vaccine and Autism

Thimerosal Exposure and Infants

Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links With Immunizations

Continuing Increases in Autism Reported in California's Developmental Services System

Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: Lack of consistent evidence for an association

- This particular one is on a pay site, but I have not found it on one that does not require a subscription as of yet. The abstract is still available to read for free though.

I numbered your studies to make it easier for me to use tags correctly.

1. Study is all about Thimerosol (sp), not about a causal relationship between vaccines and autism. You said:

Originally posted by Jenna: But there has not been a link between autism and vaccines that has been proven. The evidence that says there is one simply does not exist.

.. so study number one does not support your original false assertion. I didn't read much of it, so I am not commenting on the accuracy of the premise of the study, just that it doesn't bear relevance to our debate about your assertion nor does it deny a link between vaccines and autism.

2. Are you serious. Have you read this nonsense?

The study has been monitoring >14 000 Children who are from the geographic area formerly known as Avon, United Kingdom, and were delivered in 1991–1992. The age at which doses of thimerosal-containing vaccines were administered was recorded, and measures of mercury exposure by 3, 4, and 6 months of age were calculated and compared with a number of measures of Childhood cognitive and behavioral development covering the period from 6 to 91 months of age.

* 100% of the children in this study were vaccinated with the thimerosal-containing DTP vaccine
* Any child not completing the full series of thimerosal-containing DTP shots, which in Britain is 3 doses, wasn't included in the study
* The ONLY variable actually considered was the TIMING of the 3 doses of thimerosal-containing DTP vaccines given to kids!!!!!!!!!!!!

The timing variables were 3 months, 4 months, and 6 months

The authors are actually honest about this in their own conclusion to the study:

This study, based on a large United Kingdom–based prospective cohort, shows no evidence of any harmful effect of an accelerated immunization schedule with thimerosal-containing vaccines."

Now, maybe I'm being a bit slow here, but could you please explain to me how comparing kids who have received thimerosal-containing DTP vaccine at different time intervals, can possibly rule out any causal link between vaccines and autism?

3. Thimerosol only again.

4. Thimerosol again.

5. Thimerosol!

6. .... you guessed it .... Thimerosol!

7 and 8, more of the same.

Look, do you actually have any evidence to back up your statement or not?

Not one of the studies you posted compares vax kids with non-vax kids, so how can any of them rule out a causal link between vaccines and autism?

That's like looking at people who smoke one pack a day of high tar versus two packs of low tar and seeing no difference in lung cancer rates and then concluding that cigarettes don't cause lung cancer?!?!?



If you can find ANY study denying the link between vaccines and autism, that has anything other than a 100% vaccinated study group, I'll be very very surprised.


[edit on 18/2/09 by RogerT]

Just in case you missed it Jenna, I'll requote what the US Fed says about vaccines and autism in the case of Hannah:

... federal officials conclude the vaccines, given to Hannah in 2000, aggravated a pre-existing condition that then manifested as autism-like symptoms.

webmd source above

Now are you still so sure that 'the evidence that says there is a link between vaccines and autism simply does not exist.'?

reply to post by RogerT


I'm not sure what you were reading, but I'll quote the relevant parts from each for you. I kept the numbers the same in case you would like to search for these lines yourself.

1.

The weight of the evidence in this study does not support a causal association between early exposure to mercury from thimerosal-containing vaccines and immune globulins administered prenatally or during infancy and neuropsychological functioning at the age of 7 to 10 years.

2.

We could find no convincing evidence that early exposure to thimerosal had any deleterious effect on neurologic or psychological outcome.

3.

The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. Our ecological data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism.

4.

The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.

5.

With the possible exception of tics, there was no evidence that thimerosal exposure via DTP/DT vaccines causes neurodevelopmental disorders.

6.

The prevalence of pervasive developmental disorder in Montreal was high, increasing in recent birth cohorts as found in most countries. Factors accounting for the increase include a broadening of diagnostic concepts and criteria, increased awareness and, therefore, better identification of children with pervasive developmental disorders in communities and epidemiologic surveys, and improved access to services. The findings ruled out an association between pervasive developmental disorder and either high levels of ethylmercury exposure comparable with those experienced in the United States in the 1990s or 1- or 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccinations.

7.

The DDS data do not show any recent decrease in autism in California despite the exclusion of more than trace levels of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines. The DDS data do not support the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal during childhood is a primary cause of autism.

8.

The body of existing data, including the ecologic data presented herein, is not consistent with the hypothesis that increased exposure to Thimerosal-containing vaccines is responsible for the apparent increase in the rates of autism in young children being observed worldwide.

And since you don't seem to understand why I have been talking about Thimerosal or why I mentioned measles:

Thiomerosal
Although there is no convincing evidence that thiomersal is a factor in the onset of autism, many parents, and some scientists and doctors, believe there is a connection. Parents may first become aware of autistic symptoms in their child around the time of a routine vaccination, and parental concern about vaccines has led to a decreasing uptake of childhood immunizations and an increasing likelihood of measles outbreaks.

Thiomerosal is what has been getting the blame for the autism rates. Which is why they have removed all but traces of it from every childrens vaccine. So I don't see why you are still trying to argue with me over it. Eight studies say there is no link between the two. Believe whatever you would like.

And I saw where you said "don't bother". I just chose to post the links anyway.

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


Immunizations are important to prevent the spread of disease. Yes, there is some risk involved with side effects, but autism has never been proven to be caused by immunizations. All evidence is anecdotal at best, without the benefit of hard science to back it up. Unfortunately, when parents first receive the diagnosis, they have a hard time finding accurate information and are easy prey to anyone who offers a "magic bullet" of a cure, whether it's avoiding vaccinations, eliminating gluten from the child's diet or drugs. There is no one therapy that works in all cases, just as there is no single cause of autism. The only "cause" that has never been proven has been vaccinations.

reply to post by Sara1


For the record:
1. Not all vaccines are live cultures. Some of them are dead cultures and still provide immunity. Like polio was. Yes it caused polio once but it was tracked to a botched batch that included live cultures.

2. And, as Jenna has already explained... I would rather have my child live and be able to enjoy life to some extent even with autism, than to die of a horrible disease (like meningitis, say, which is really common among young adults. And it also spreads like wildfire. And has a high mortality rate). And for your information, I have had experience with autism, obviously more than you think and definitely more than I am willing to share.

Say there was a smallpox epidemic, somehow. Maybe it was used as a bioweapon, whatever. And there was time for everyone to get vaccinated. I would not, not, not want to be the parent who said "vaccines are horrible I'm not giving my kid that mercury," and then my kid ended up getting smallpox and maybe I did, too. It's not going to be me. It can be you, it's really up to you, there's no need to get snippy.

And, again, if more people breastfed and had decent nutrition, our immune systems would be stronger and we could stop using vaccines. But that's probably never going to happen, and it's probably too late. But for the last time, I know quite a few people who have been exposed to mercury, including having it in their bloodstream, who are completely fine.

If you want to think that scientists and doctors are trying to kill you and your kids, then it's totally your prerogative to think whatever you want. I just don't think that they are. Especially since my mother has three medical degrees. And has been exposed to everything from mercury to HIV to TB and she is perfectly fine. And she has had all her vaccines, she was one of the first to get the polio vaccine. She didn't get the measles vaccine or mumps vaccine... because she had both the mumps and the measles as a child. The measles gave her a hearing disorder which is untreatable and progressive. So... I mean, whatever, but my kids will be vaccinated.

reply to post by RogerT


Autism-like symptoms does not = Autism.
I mean, Lyme Disease can cause symptoms like schizophrenia but it doesn't cause schizophrenia... not that autism is anything like schizophrenia.

Another example- The flu can cause symptoms that are similar to shingles. But the fu doesn't cause shingles.

I'm allergic to Thimerosal. So whenever I get a vaccine I get super nauseous, really lightheaded, a bad migraine, and a metal taste in my mouth. And it lasts for about an hour and then I'm cool. Just to add to the whole thimerosal is rotten thing.

BUT. They do offer thimerosal-free vaccines. It's true! They do. So I get those instead now. You just need to request them, and the doctors will give them instead.

We are all sovereign beings. Nobody, not even your parents, have a right to put something into you that you do not want. What makes this scenario even worse is that people will put things into their body without having any knowledge of what it is they are introducing to themselves or others.

I actually wish that I could go back in time and have had a choice to refuse vaccination. That in itself has been a lesson to learn from.

Honor freedom.

reply to post by Asmus


If they waited for the time when a child could consent to vaccination, many of them would have become sick from the diseases that they are not naturally immune to. And that would give the viruses an even greater chance to spread. So, although you are right, it wouldn't even be worth it at say, age 6 or so.

Just wondering, does this "not putting anything into your body that you do not want" thing include all the enzymes and antibiotics in breastmilk?

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I'll just say the following in hopes it has not yet been said. And if it has, well, it certainly bears repeating -

It took the US Federal Govt. around 20 years to admit that Agent Orange had made thousands and thousand of Vietnam Era soldiers very, very ill in very many different ways.

It took the US Federal Govt. more than ten years to admit that there is such a disorder as Gulf War Syndrome.

And eventually they will have to come clean by admitting the mercury-based preservatives in childhood vaccines has made lots and lots of children very, very ill too.

The reason they delay the admission is that the financial liability is huge !.

It's just the way things work ...

And about all these so called 'scientific studies' - until you can show me who funded them, and name the individuals on the boards of the funding agencies, these studies aren't worth a flea-fart in a whirlwind, as my grandfather, may he rest in peace, used to say !

These 'studies' are just a well orchestrated delaying tactic. The longer it takes to pay out on the lawsuits, the less it will cost, in terms of today's dollars - because of inflation.

It's just a numbers game - once again, only about the money.

As always, the human beings whose lives have been adversely affected don't matter to 'the management' one iota !

reply to post by Jenna


I am stunned!

You clearly have no intention of taking responsibility for what you write and continue to refuse to read what is posted.

You claimed there is NO evidence that vaccines are linked to autism, yet all you continue to source and argue over are studies relating to one particular substance in some vaccines.

This is either blatant obfuscation or sloppy application/interpretation of language/data, which is also what I am accusing the scientific studies of (as I demonstrated in the UK study you posted).

I already made a reference to the possibility of Thimerosol/Mercury as a vaccine industry straw man. Do you work for the vaccine industry?

Step 1. No link found between Thimerosol and Autism.
Step 2. Vaccines don't cause Autism.
Step 3. Vaccines are totally harmless.

You only have one step to go

[edit on 19/2/09 by RogerT]

I have found some very interesting info regarding the latest court ruling that found against the families who argued that vaccination contributed to their children's autism.

It turns out that the organisation who is responsible for carrying out the vaccine safety research and the successful defendant in the court case are, yep you guessed it, one and the same:

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)

This obviously blatant conflict of interest is just one more reason for my family to doubt the integrity of our home countries National Immunisation Program.

Two HHS agencies, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the National Institutes of Health (NIH), are responsible for conducting vaccine safety research. Even leading vaccine proponents have accused the CDC of carrying out safety research “on the cheap,” and two major systematic reviews of vaccine research by the world renowned Cochrane Collaboration have found studies to be of “poor quality” and “inadequate.” The director of the NIH institute in charge of autism studies, Dr. Tom Insel, has admitted that HHS has a conflict of interest preventing NIH from allowing autism-vaccine science due to the court cases. Last month, the government-dominated Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee blocked critical vaccine-autism research studies from moving forward even though they had been requested by their own scientific advisors and autism advocates. HHS gives billions of dollars to pharmaceutical companies to develop vaccines and build vaccine factories, and the CDC spends billions of dollars to promote and expand the immunization of Americans, yet the CDC spends only $20 million on safety studies. Even this modest research has been placed off-limits to review by the lawyers representing the vaccine court families while the Department of Justice lawyers were allowed to use it.

Source

Safe Minds is an excellent site for information on this topic.

THIS IS ABOUT MONEY

Is that simple.

These companies do not care one iota if any child suffers any damage from their products.

These companies would lose BILLIONS of dollars if vaccination was either found to be harmful or was made optional.

So Big Pharma waves it's wallet and the problem disappears.

This article below is an excellent example of how money runs the vaccination industry ... not any concern for our children's health

Voices for hiding vaccine risks

And another thing:

When we have these "outbreaks" of measles and the like ... what percentage of those who are infected by the disease are immunised and what percentage are not immunised?

Surely some of the people infected have gone through the immunisation process? If so ... what's the point in immunisation?



[edit on 19/2/09 by Horza]

reply to post by RogerT


You are banging your head against a brick wall with Jenna. People that have their head stuck in the sand will never change, irrespective of how much evidence there is. Most people are under the impression that Pastuer was a Dr, he wasn't, he was a Chemist. He never did a days medical training in his life. This loony is where all this nonsense with vaccines started. People need to read the differences between Pastuers Germ Theory and Bechamps Cellular Theory. There is an article at the excellent whale.to website, here's a link for those that want to see the dofference: www.whale.to...

Also let's not forget Pastuer plagarised the vast majority of the great Antione Bechamps work, he took credit for curing the Silk Worm disease, pebrine. Pastuer believed in Spontaneous Generation until Bechamp proved the theory wrong, he then stole Bechamps work and passed it off as his own.

The Germ Theory has as many holes as a Swiss cheese, and it is likely that Pasteur knew it. But a little research shows us that Pasteur had a gift for PR. He rarely let his research keep him away from an opportunity to address royalty or medical society in the most prestigious university settings. He was quoted and published and offered practically every honorary title and chair in Europe. The records however not only cast suspicion, but seem to establish fairly clearly that Pasteur "borrowed" the research for some of his most famous discoveries, and then capitalized on the celebrity of being there first.

Before he died, Pasteur instructed his family not to release some 10,000 pages of lab notes after his death. Not until 1975, after the death of his grandson, were these "secret" notes finally made public. An historian from Princeton, Professor Geison made a thorough study of the lab notes. He presented his findings in an address to The American Association for the Advancement of Science in Boston in 1993. Dr. Geison's conclusions: Pasteur published much fraudulent data and was guilty of many counts of "scientific misconduct," violating rules of medicine, science, and ethics.

Like Koch, Pasteur was very motivated by money. In the race for a vaccine for anthrax, for example, not only did Pasteur not test it on animals before using humans; it was also established that Pasteur actually stole the formula from a colleague named Toussaint. Unable to prove his claim at the time, Toussaint died a few months later of a nervous breakdown.

A little research uncovers the following amazing possibilities about Pasteur, which the reader is encouraged to further investigate:

* Pasteur had no training or credentials in either medicine or physiology; he was a chemist
* Pasteur very likely created the disease known as "hydrophobia," rather than found a cure for it.
* Pasteur initiated the practice of vivisection with horrific animal experiments. Hundreds of thousands of laboratory animals have been needlessly killed by atrocious experiments in the name of "science," not only at Pasteurian Institutes, but pervasively throughout the entire empire of medical research laboratories worldwide, even to the present time.
* Rather than protect the human race from disease, Pasteur was directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people who were inoculated with unproven vaccines and injections, and indirectly for thousands more in whom disease was introduced by the administration of unproven Pasteurian procedures.
* Pasteur may be seen more as a merchant than a scientist, with his frequent reporting of false test findings and data, which had two designs: self-promotion and profiteering from the sale of drugs and vaccines that were often made mandatory by legislators.
* Pasteurian treatment for a disease he did not even have actually killed Alexander, the King of Greece

I could rattle on all day about Pastuer the quack but wont

Our daughter has had all her vaccines. There is one that I will never allow, even if it is made mandatory. It's the so-called cervical cancer vaccine. It's deadly and it's not what it is advertised to be. If it's made mandatory I'll pull her from the school and go back to homeschooling. I'd go to jail before I forced her to get it.

reply to post by RogerT


See here's the thing. I made a comment, I defended it, and then I backed it up. I have been backing it up for at least 4 posts now. You are as aware as I am that the main reason so many people think vaccines cause autism is the thiomerosal which the body turns into ethylmercury, simplified it a bit there I know. This is what I have been disproving since you first responded to me talking about mercury.

If you would like to change angles simply because I have backed up my position with scientific data, more power to you. But the fact of the matter is I made a claim and then I backed it up. I didn't switch midstream, though it appears that you would like to since I have in fact shown that there are indeed eight major studies saying there is no link between the ethylmercury from thiomerosal and autism.

And for the record I do not now nor have I ever worked for a pharmacy, a pharmaceutical manufacturer, or a PR firm. I am just capable of backing up comments I make with evidence rather than attempting to cast doubt on the character and motives of people I debate with.


reply to post by Chuffer


If anyone is banging their head against a brick wall here it would be me. I invite you to read through those eight studies I provided links to and then tell me about evidence.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by Jenna]

Originally posted by Chuffer
* Pasteur very likely created the disease known as "hydrophobia," rather than found a cure for it.

I'm always fascinated by people who think that discrediting Pasteur is a means of discrediting vaccination, or that discrediting Charles Darwin is a means of discrediting evolutionary theory.

Do you really think that Pasteur is the latest word in vaccination theory?

Or that he very likely created the disease known as "hydrophobia", also known as "rabies"? That's a new one to me.


edit to add some rabies history:

Rabies is a very old disease, perhaps as old as humankind. The word rabies has its origin in Sanskrit, 3000 years BBC: "rabhas" means "to do violence". The Greek word for rabies, "lyssa" derives from the root "lud" which means "violent". Thus, the family of viruses to which rabies belongs is lyssa. The first description of the disease dates from the 23rd. century BC in the Eshuma Code of Babylon. Antiquity, did know rabies as well as the link between human disease and animals, especially dogs. But, it is a famous Italian scholar, Girolamo Fracastoro, born in Verona, who described the disease, which obviously he had seen in many patients, and its routes of contamination in 1530, i.e. 350 years before Louis Pasteur.

Source

[edit on 2/19/09 by americandingbat]

This really is all about education. The doctors and drug companies should disclose all the risks involved with perspective whether that be a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of a two day rash or 1 in 100 chance of autism. Also, disclose the risks and probabilities of the disease they may be subjecting their children to without the vaccine. If a parent refuses a vaccine, the doctor/hospital should have the right to have them sign a waiver of liability. In this way, if a parent refuses a Tetanus shot for their child and their child gets Tetanus, the doctor/hospital is not legally accountable. Surely they should try to treat from there but no undue enrichment by what was otherwise the parent's decision.

Likewise, parents need to take the responsibility of making sound judgements when it comes to immunization. If there's any doubt that this vaccine is a good thing, they should do their homework and understand exactly why it wouldn't be. I agree with flyersfan that sometimes we get so immunization-happy that we're vaccinating for things that are very low probability and very high side-effect risk. That really needs to stop.

I'm for all vaccines being voluntary, but I'm also for responsible parenting.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by saint4God]

Heyyy progress. maybe flouride gets a turn next

Originally posted by TheBranch
Heyyy progress. maybe flouride gets a turn next

Not sure if you were referring to the movie or not, but it always bears repeating :

General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.

Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?

Mandrake: Aye, no, no. I don't Jack.

Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? Its incredibly obvious isn't it. A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.

- www.strategic-air-command.com...