More Parents Refusing Vaccines For Kids

reply to post by RogerT


Yet there is a post in this thread that says "injecting mercury into your kids." Excuse me for posting the difference between the two for the benefit of anyone who didn't already know. If I were only speaking to you I would not have mentioned the difference since I had assumed you already knew. Unfortunately I was not posting only for your benefit and there are still some people who are unaware that there is more than one type of mercury.

Yes I am aware of what blood/brain barrier means. Would you like to add a bit more condescension to your next post? I think your last one could have had a bit more.

Yes I did follow your link. Then I clicked studies, and then I went to their list that is "600 strong" and found a list of quotes from studies that had little if anything to do with vaccines causing autism. Sorry but I don't consider studies on carnitine deficiency, fatty acid metabolism, taurine in pediatric nutrition, administration of taurine to patients with epilepsy, or chronic constipation as a symptom of milk allergy to be the same thing as a study on autism or the theoretical connection between vaccines and autism. Nor do I find blogs to be the best sources of scientific/medical information.

If you think that 8 major studies that examined the effect removing thiomersal from vaccines had, all of which found conclusively that removing it did nothing to lower autism rates by the way, are wrong then I'm afraid there's not much I can tell you.


Edit: Just out of curiosity, did you bother to read what was in that link to "600 sources"? Or did you just see that it was on that first link you provided and assume it would help your case?

[edit on 17-2-2009 by Jenna]

Originally posted by RogerT

Originally posted by steve_montana
The thiomersal issue is no longer of any importance as the preservative isn't used anymore in the US and the European Union (Bigham & Copes, 2005).

I beg to differ. If a link is 'proven' and a financial compensation precedent set in a court case, the historical link will cost big-pharma billions and billions, and could potentially bring down the entire corrupt vaccination industry.

I would imagine that the thiomersal issue is still important to the kids with autism and their families.

Plus, I'll wager it is still in the stuff they are selling to the rest of the world.

Very narrow minded view

[edit on 17/2/09 by RogerT]

Fair enough, but then the historical link needs to be proven. No need for citation marks around 'proven': scientific proof of a causal correlation between autism and thiomersal. Before you say that such proof would be suppressed by pharmaceutical companies: in the past, links between specific drugs/products and health problems have been proven and resulted in succesful court cases (e.g. thalidomide, DDT, tobacco ...). You know just as well as I do that any other evidence (personal conviction that such a link exists for example) would carry no weight at all in a court of law. Go tell the court that they are narrow minded.

The fact that I made a comment about the situation in the US and Europe has nothing to do with narrow-mindedness, as you imply, I was merely staying on topic, as this debate was almost exclusively centered on US parents. The misbehavior of pharmaceutical companies in the Third World deserves a thread of its own as it is an entirely different issue.

BTW: before you accuse of me saying there is no link, I did no such thing. I did take a look at the two links you gave. The longer list contained all sorts of articles on autism. The chapter on autism and thiomersal also contained a number of studies that showed no correlation at all. Anyway, I think that if indications of a link exist, thiomersal should not be used any longer, which seems to be the case right now.

[edit on 17-2-2009 by steve_montana]

Originally posted by pureevil81
Do YOU have anything to reveal, besides stating the obvious?

You miss the point.

You say it is a hard decision; I was trying to show you that given the chance of something happening, it is not that big of a risk and ultimately not that hard of a decision.

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Nope, didnt miss the point.

As I stated in my previous post, and will state again.... we take chances everyday and most people are aware of that.

It is a hard decision, because the risk of driving is a low risk situation if done correctly, however, when my children, and myself are INJECTED with unknown chemicals, that is a much higher risk.

Which is why every parent and every injectee should carefully weigh the pros and cons prior.

Compare apples to oranges much?

You say it is a hard decision; I was trying to show you that given the chance of something happening, it is not that big of a risk and ultimately not that hard of a decision.

Given that there is zero concern in big pharma to determine the actual statistical chances of random death or autism from vaccines, it's hard to say how big of a risk it is.

You can look at data on the subject, yet how objective is any data? Data from concerned parents groups will exaggerate the chances, and data from groups on the payroll of the FDA will seek to minimize the chances of it.

The only way to be truly objective about this is to say, well who the hell knows how dangerous this stuff is, I'm gonna avoid it.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
I'll start. I'm not an expert by any means on this subject, but I am a parent and I did get my kids vaccinated. The only reason I did get them vaccinated was the fact that my doctor recommended it and I knew that the schools required it. I must admit now though that's not a good reason.

For those of you who have researched the claims specifically related to vaccines and autism, I'd seriously like to get the benefit of your research. Is there any documented, scientific research contradicting what the CDC puts out?

How about social research.

I'm an Army brat.

I grew up during an era when there was mercury in the vaccines. My brother and I and all our friends had immunizations when we were a few months old and kept having them every 2-3 years until our parents left the service or we went off to school.

So... why isn't there a humongous rate of autism in military kids?

Or the kids of missionaries (who take multiple trips abroad?)

Or diplomats' kids?

We had all the shots recommended for US school kids plus some you never thought of, including for malaria.

Why aren't all of us seeing a huge rate of dementia (many, like me, are baby boomers) and autism in our group?

If there was any truth to it, we would.

The shots are not the same as they were. They probably weren't good in my days, but I think they've gotten worse for our children. But then it looks like the leaders agenda has as well.

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by RogerT

 

Yet there is a post in this thread that says "injecting mercury into your kids." Excuse me for posting the difference between the two for the benefit of anyone who didn't already know.

Yes, but unfortunately your information is irresponsibly incorrect.

I found the paper, here is the link:

Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal

Here's a quote and a summary:

There was a much higher proportion of inorganic Hg in the brain of thimerosal monkeys than in the brains of MeHg monkeys (up to 71% vs. 10%). Absolute inorganic Hg concentrations in the brains of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys were approximately twice that of the MeHg monkeys. Interestingly, the inorganic fraction in the kidneys of the same cohort of monkeys was also significantly higher after im thimerosal than after oral MeHg exposure (0.71 ± 0.04 vs. 0.40 ± 0.03). This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.

my emphasis

Basically: ethyl mercury deposits twice as much inorganic mercury in the brains of primates as compared to equal doses of methylmercury (4). Inorganic mercury, following the de-methylation of organic mercury, has been identified as the primary neurotoxic agent in primate studies

If I were only speaking to you I would not have mentioned the difference since I had assumed you already knew. Unfortunately I was not posting only for your benefit and there are still some people who are unaware that there is more than one type of mercury.

And now they are aware that ethyl and methyl mercury are BOTH extremely toxic to the human body.

Yes I did follow your link...

... Nor do I find blogs to be the best sources of scientific/medical information.

Are you aware of who Jon Polig is? Did you read even one of those 33 studies cited by this PhD Neurologist? Have you ever read a scientific study, in it's entirety, on any vaccine subject?

As I have shown above, scientific/medical information is often inaccurate, incomplete, misleading, misquoted or just plain lies.

If you think that 8 major studies that examined the effect removing thiomersal from vaccines had, all of which found conclusively that removing it did nothing to lower autism rates by the way, are wrong then I'm afraid there's not much I can tell you.

Would you care to list the studies so we can take a look at their abstracts, data, discussion, conclusions and funding bodies?

On second thoughts, don't bother. I began this particular discussion with you as you made a blatantly false and extra-ordinarily insensitive statement that there is no evidence for a link between autism and vaccines. There is clearly a mountain of evidence. To say otherwise is ignorance of the most bizarre kind.

I wonder what your agenda is here?

[edit on 18/2/09 by RogerT]

reply to post by steve_montana


Apologies if my response was a little overly emotive. It was 4am and this is a subject that inspires quite a bit of feeling in me.

I really don't want to go down the autism/thimerosol road (sorry for spelling, I never can get it right). There are many much more highly qualified if you've an interest either way in this debate.

I notice that Jon Polig is still pro-vaccine, even with his conviction that vaccines caused autism in his daughter. I guess this makes him a good candidate for moderate scientific discussion.

Personally, I'm not moderate on this issue.

I have yet to see any conclusive or even compelling evidence of the efficacy, necessity and safety of any of the currently mandated infant and child vaccines, and the manipulation, greed, dishonesty and obfuscation surrounding the whole vaccine issue is IMO abhorrent.

I make a small effort to appeal to the 'scientific' discussion with peer reviewed papers and quotes from those admired in scientific circles, but I'd much rather talk common sense.

Injecting a cocktail of dangerous toxic chemicals and pathogens into a new born with an immature immune system is IMO insane.

there is an old saying i hear old folk say and i stick by it.


if a kid hasnt eaten a buket of dirt by the age of 5 it is not healthy.

i reallly beleive in this saying. for example.

I as a child would come in the house covered in dirt/mud as a young kid (from as young as 1) the bacterias i was exposed to and the viruses my body was infected with and had to deal with has given me a very strong immune system and i cant even remember the last time i had to see a doctor because i was sick(touch wood)
some vaccines are necessery but i think a persons young age is the key to them not getting sick and having a strong immune system by being exposed to all the bad bacteries.

reply to post by Byrd


It does seem that mercury/autism has become a pro-vaccine straw man.

edit to add: Just found this in a webmd interview with Polig:

In deciding the case, which has sparked anew the vaccine-autism debate, the federal government has not said that childhood vaccines cause autism. Rather, federal officials conclude the vaccines, given to Hannah in 2000, aggravated a pre-existing condition that then manifested as autism-like symptoms.

www.webmd.com...

So basically ... "What we injected into your daughter didn't make her autistic, it just did something to her body that resulted in her looking like she is autistic" ... sweet!!!

Anyway, however this debate ends up, if the fear of autism prevents parents vaccinating, or at least gets them thinking and asking questions, then maybe it's a good thing.

Personally, I didn't avoid vaccinating my kids out of a fear of autism. I did so out of sampling the huge amount of evidence (both scientific and anecdotal) that vaccines are probably ineffective, unnecessary and dangerous.

When there are abundant sources of inexpensive or free, perfectly harmless and healthful alternatives, with zero side effects and proven track records, it just doesn't make sense to take the chance on big-pharma's chemical experiments.

[edit on 18/2/09 by RogerT]

Originally posted by gate13
some vaccines are necessery

which vaccines and why do you believe so with such conviction?

Originally posted by RogerT
Yes, but unfortunately your information is irresponsibly incorrect.

Unfortunately, it is not.

Thimerosal Fact Sheet
NIAID-supported studies at the University of Rochester and the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland, assessed levels of mercury in the blood, hair, urine, and stool of 40 infants who received vaccines containing thimerosal and 21 infants who received vaccines without thimerosal, as controls. The infants studied were 6 months of age or younger. This study generated several important results.

* Mercury levels in blood and urine were low in all infants studied and, in many cases, too small to measure. There was no observed dose-dependent relationship between the level of thimerosal received through vaccination and the level of mercury in the body.
* Mercury levels in blood did not exceed, at any time, the blood levels that correspond to Environmental Protection Agency guidelines for exposure.
* Mercury levels in the stool of infants receiving vaccines containing thimerosal were relatively high compared to mercury levels in the stool of infants who were not exposed to thimerosal, providing evidence that mercury from thimerosal is eliminated in the stool of infants.

There is much more but I'll let you read it there instead of quoting it all.

And now they are aware that ethyl and methyl mercury are BOTH extremely toxic to the human body.

No, actually since my post there has been another post that says "mercury" so apparently some still think there is only one kind. And if they are aware of anything it would be that they are both toxic to monkeys. As I am sure you are aware, we are not monkeys we are human. What is toxic to one isn't necessarily toxic to another. What will kill one won't necessarily kill another. And as pointed out in the above fact sheet should you care to read it, total levels after receiving thimerosal were lower than after receiving methymercury in monkeys.

Are you aware of who Jon Polig is? Did you read even one of those 33 studies cited by this PhD Neurologist? Have you ever read a scientific study, in it's entirety, on any vaccine subject?

As I have shown above, scientific/medical information is often inaccurate, incomplete, misleading, misquoted or just plain lies.

You mean Jon Poling. Yes I am aware of who he is. I am also aware he didn't mention that he was Hannah's father, the girl focused on in his study about mitochondrial dysfunction and autism, until it was discovered after the fact which leads to questions about bias on his part.

I find it interesting that you ask if I've read any of his studies, then say that scientific/medical information is "often inaccurate, incomplete, misleading, misquoted or just plain lies." Which is it? Either they can be relied upon for information or they cannot. You cannot have it both ways, though you appear to be trying.

Would you care to list the studies so we can take a look at their abstracts, data, discussion, conclusions and funding bodies?

Gladly.

Early Thimerosal Exposure and Outcomes at 7 to 10 years
Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence From Danish Population-Based Data
Association between Thimerosal Containing Vaccine and Autism
Thimerosal Exposure and Infants
Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links With Immunizations
Continuing Increases in Autism Reported in California's Developmental Services System
Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: Lack of consistent evidence for an association - This particular one is on a pay site, but I have not found it on one that does not require a subscription as of yet. The abstract is still available to read for free though.

There is clearly a mountain of evidence. To say otherwise is ignorance of the most bizarre kind.

The above studies would disagree, as do I.

I wonder what your agenda is here?

I have no agenda aside from supporting my point of view, though it's clear that you do.

The autism link is a conveniently disputed issue that deflects attention away from the fact that mass vaccination is ineffective, unnecessary and dangerous.

They are ineffective, yet rarely if ever does someone who has been vaccinated for measles later contract measles. Rarely if ever does someone who has been vaccinated for mumps later contract mumps. Unnecessary yet if you are not vaccinated and are exposed to a virus you can become extremely ill and risk death. Dangerous yet thousands upon thousands of children are vaccinated every year and nothing happens aside from them becoming immune to whichever diseases they were vaccinated for.

You still aren't reading. The study I posted points out the 'apparent' evidence that ethyl mercury leaves the body and demonstrates this as a scientific mistake and fallacy. Inorganic mercury in the brain is the key, according to those scientists, not urine or hair.

I quote you the scientific studies because that's what you claim to be valid. I am attempting to 'speak your language' as you clearly have no intention or ability to speak mine.

Now you quote measles incidence even after I provided the links to graphs drawn from government data that measles was a disapearing disease and 99.4% GONE before vaccination was even introduced.

Your final paragraph is classic vaccine PR. No evidence, just assertions that we are supposed to take as obvious, because that is the way we have been trained from birth. Show me some evidence, real evidence, or even a bit of common sense discussion.

I have clearly stated my agenda, beliefs and postion on vaccine and the science associated with it. No need to infer I have an agenda.

I believe it is insane to continue to mame and kill the most precious members of our society as a science experiment and/or to bolster the profits of pharma shareholders.

If you genuinely have no other agenda and are just arguing in order to be right, I have no further interest in debate with you. You are right. Enjoy.

[edit on 18/2/09 by RogerT]

reply to post by RogerT


As I said before, if you are that convinced that eight major studies are wrong then there's not much I can tell you. You asked for links to those studies, I provided them, you ignored them. I have asked several questions and you refuse to answer in favor of attempting to be condescending. You say studies are unreliable, misquoted, or just lies, yet you rely on them to support your own assertions. Yet I am the one who is arguing just to be right?

We will just have to agree to disagree. Have a great day.

[edit on 18-2-2009 by Jenna]

reply to post by Jenna


Actually, it isn't quite accurate to say that if you are vaccinated you will rarely get the disease.

My son was vaccinated for pertussis (whooping cough) and got it anyway. Most of his grade was vaccinated and got it anyway. Each year I saw bulletins come through the public health office I worked at, warning of various outbreaks at the schools.

of course they are refusing. anyone would. it doesn't take a "study" or reassurance for people to see there's been something fundamentally wrong with this whole scenario. and why do you think the story about the study proving the other study was wrong has been all over the media these past couple of weeks really? because that's the truth or because vaccine sales are down?

Originally posted by Byrd

How about social research.

I'm an Army brat.

I grew up during an era when there was mercury in the vaccines. My brother and I and all our friends had immunizations when we were a few months old and kept having them every 2-3 years until our parents left the service or we went off to school.

So... why isn't there a humongous rate of autism in military kids?

Or the kids of missionaries (who take multiple trips abroad?)

Or diplomats' kids?

We had all the shots recommended for US school kids plus some you never thought of, including for malaria.

Why aren't all of us seeing a huge rate of dementia (many, like me, are baby boomers) and autism in our group?

If there was any truth to it, we would.

Not to cosign off with too much of a "mee too", but I have my own experience to add credence to your account. I too, am an Army brat as well as a veteran. I've been jabbed with yellow fever vaccine when I was still in diapers, as well as the usual childhood vaccines they gave back in the 80's. I remember getting lined up with a bunch of other kids on the military base school we attended in Okinawa and receiving typhoid vaccine and going right back to class and playing on the playground and all. Wasn't much of biggie back then, and I never noted too many special needs kids back then either and we all had the shots.

During my own term in service, I have had my own barrage of vaccinations, including full series of anthrax...series 3 and 4 I recieved while unknowingly pregnant with my first child, and I am happy to report that he is a fine and functioning 8 year old that just made the honor roll last semester, and routinely beats both myself and his father at chess. I hope he recieved some of the immunity from the shot and my breastmilk so my accidental exposure to him wasn't in vain, it certains seems to have done no harm.

We all have different biochemical makeups, sensitivities and different experiences, and I believe vaccines should be voluntary, not mandatory. I'm no scientist or doctor, but even with the minute amount of mercury derivitave as a preservative in the 'old school' vaccines, it seems unlikely that this would cause lasting damage or psychological disability on it's own as we are exposed to more mercury in city air, tuna, municipal drinking water and even our food than that. I used to break thermometers and play with mercury as a child (I know, I know) and I'm still here.

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by RogerT

 

As I said before, if you are that convinced that eight major studies are wrong then there's not much I can tell you.

I am going to have a look at the studies and post responses shortly.

You asked for links to those studies, I provided them, you ignored them.

I think you missed the bit where I write: "On second thoughts, don't bother."

I'll say it again. Mercury/Autism link is a very minor side issue in the overall picture. 1.2 billion dollars prior to 2006 handed out by the US gov. for vaccine damaged kids - and that's the tip of the iceberg. Given that the automatic response of the overwhelming majority of doctors to a complaining parent is 'It's definitely not the vaccine', we simply have no way of knowing the scale of the problem.

However, I don't like to leave a door open, so I'll have one more shot at closing this one.

I have asked several questions and you refuse to answer in favor of attempting to be condescending.

Well I am doing my best to answer your questions, even though I seem to have to keep repeating myself.

You say studies are unreliable, misquoted, or just lies, yet you rely on them to support your own assertions.

No, I use them to highlight the lack of validity of your assertions.

Yet I am the one who is arguing just to be right?

Yep

We will just have to agree to disagree.

No sorry, kids health and lives are at stake. If you keep posting vaccine PR, I'm going to have to challenge it.

[edit on 18/2/09 by RogerT]

I am very surprised a self proclaimed free country actually practices mandatory injections.


As Mystiq said, here in Canada, we simply have to be a conscientious objector... and the government can't do anything about it.
It's our right here to decide what is done to our bodies.

As it should be in ALL countries.
... but the US hasn't been free for quite some time in my opinion.


It should be the right of all parents to do the same for their children... barring evidence the parents might be of unsound mind and attempting to cause harm to the child.


My second point is that I don't trust the American FDA system one bit. They've made way too many mistakes, and cut way too many corners when it comes to testing drugs and other medications.
Their only concern as to whether or not drug passes relies on "Did they pay us off well?"


To place the lives of an entire generation of people on the line, hoping the American drug system didn't cut corners... this is pretty insane to me.