If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…

reply to post by TNT13


Yes, I hear you...maybe a conversation with a non-denominational elder may be better...I dunno..well here's some info to consider..

Amazingly Accurate Textual Transmission

While it is true that we do not have the original documents of the Old Testament, the accuracy of the Hebrew copyists is astonishing when comparing the scriptures to other literature of antiquity.

For example, while you can find wide variations in the few copies of the "Egyptian Book of the Dead", the discovery of the Great Isaiah Scroll among the Dead Sea Scrolls amazed the scholarly community:

"Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than than the oldest dated manuscript previous known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling. They do not affect the message of revelation in the slightest." (Archer, SQT, 23-25).4

link with much more... evidencetobelieve.net...

And...

Reliability of the Bible
Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original? Has the Christian church changed the Bible over the years or does it represent a reliable copy of the original autographs?
Did the Original New Testament Manuscripts still exist in the Second Century? By: Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D.
Misquoting Jesus: Does Bart Erhman Prove the New Testament is Corrupt? - Contrary to Erhman's claims, the New Testament canon was established in the early second century, and scribal errors/changes did not affect any significant Christian doctrine.
History of the Bible: How The Bible Came To Us - Manuscripts 101 - Where do they come from and why are there different "versions" of the Bible?
Is the Bible Really the Word of God? - Some of the evidence that the claims of the Bible are true.
The Proper Cure for the Disease
Archaeological evidence
Historicity of Jesus
Scientific evidence
The Bible's Uniqueness and Unity
Prophetic evidence
Survival in the Face of Persecution
References

Is Christianity a Made-up Myth Written by the Disciples? - Now really - would the disciples write about all their shortcomings, make the Christian church into a female, design heaven with no sex in it, and say that they were going to be married to Jesus in heaven? I don't know about you guys, but this is not what I would have written if I had made up the Bible!
Accurate Biblical Descriptions of Scientific Principles - What the Bible says about nature.
Are the Biblical Documents Reliable? by Jimmy Williams from Probe Ministries
The Historicity of the New Testament by JP Moreland
Jesus Christ as God and the Trinity Was Not Invented Until the Fourth Century? Is Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code) right about the origin of Christianity?
The "Gospel of Judas": National Geographic Attacks Christianity With Biased "Research"
"The Lost Tomb of Jesus": Have the Bones of Jesus Christ Been Found in Jerusalem?
Is the Biblical Flood Account a Modified Copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh?
Christ on Scripture by Richard L. Routh, Ph.D. - What did Jesus say about the Scripture?
Christian CADRE (Christian Colligation of Apologetics Debate Research & Evangelism)

lots of fine answers to those questions.. here... www.godandscience.org...

reply to post by _Phoenix_



Yes the cheesiness bugged me too...but overall the message is good and needed (to me atleast)

I am a much more caring and loving person than I EVER was under Christianity.

OT, your only concern is your own salvation. Deep down you know that is the truth. Preaching on a forum won't save you.

Even by your so-called "humbleness", I know the real reason behind it.

Enjoy your fear.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by dodgygeeza]

reply to post by dodgygeeza




I'm glad you are happy...

Me too...

Wish you all the best

OT (not fearful )

reply to post by OldThinker


I'm not aiming to make a point
Merely trying to understand yours.

reply to post by TNT13

Ya the religious thinker can never wrap his/her own perspective around things, it always needs to be backed up by scripture; which to the common thinker who is more moral and spirtual then religious, takes this as complete BS because to us the Bible is outdated.

Although I completely agree with you I don't think they are the exclusive in society. Think on this:

The atheists use their guru's to back them up also. As a matter of fact, it is always humorous to me when I hear a Dawkins follower. Very easy on ATS! I have read his book, "The God Delusion" and find all his parishioners doing the Dawkins talk.

As a matter of fact; he is called Pope Dawkins by many, for a reason. He said in his book...

"My dream is that this book may help people come out...the easier it will be for others to join them. There may be a critical mass for the initiation of a chain reaction." Preface

"If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." Page 5

Now, isn't that a piece of evangelism????

I am anti-religion of ALL sorts. He is only doing an evangelizing work that he feels is important, probably not realizing that he is no different than the ones he criticizes - like OT.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Definately has to be radicals on both ends of the spectrum, I'm heard of this Dawkins character but haven't ever read into to him suppose now I'll have to take a look.

reply to post by TNT13

Definately has to be radicals on both ends of the spectrum, I'm heard of this Dawkins character but haven't ever read into to him suppose now I'll have to take a look.

Ya, you should! Since he is so revered in the atheist community. Possibly a brilliant man of science, but a philosopher he does not make!!

The same name as the Lucius Piso whose daughter married Julius Caesar - Lucius Calpernius Piso Caesoninus. That earlier Lucius Piso was in fact, also a Caesar! He was Julius Caesar’s father’s brother (That’s right, his uncle!). And Lucia Calpernia Piso was his first cousin. Marc Antony was Julius Caesar’s 2nd uncle.
Now, I will fill you in on some of the pertinent factors and motives of the time. There were many battles fought between the Romans and the Jews, on the field, and on paper - as propaganda.
Why? Well, for one thing, the Roman aristocratic way of life was at stake. It was one in which slavery played a major part. The Roman way of life was one based on power and control; the control of other people. The Jewish way of life was not tolerant of slavery, because it went against the humanistic teachings of Hillel the Pharisee. After the death of King Herod, the Herodian Priests were losing control of the Jewish masses, because of this new Pharisaic Party of Humanistic Jews.
Philippians 3:12 “Be all of you subject one to another, having your conversion ’honest’ among the Gentiles”
At first, they tried to give this new religion to the Jews (new wine in old bottles), but when the Jews wouldn’t accept it, they went to give it to the Gentiles (new wine in new bottles), and destroy the Jews. The proportion of Jews (Jewish Beth Hillel, zealots/Pharisees), in the Roman empire by the late 50’s C.E. was over 20%. As humanistic Jews, they were a threat to the Roman way of life, i.e., aristocratic. So, a few conspirators in the hierarchy decided to give the Jews a new religion - Christianity.
They synthesized this new religion, and based it upon the already existent Jewish religion, and using the Jewish books, they customized it to fit the Roman way of life.
The New Testament books were written after the supposed fact, so that it was easy for them to be self-fulfilling. The first ’Christian’ book written was ’Ur Marcus’, which was the proto- type for the book ’Mark’ that was written by Arrius Piso.
’Ur Marcus’ was written by Lucius (Lucillius) Calpernius Caesoninus Piso in about the year 60 C.E. (Perhaps closer to the year 62 C.E.). Even theologians agree that chronologically ’Mark’ would come before ’Matthew’. The main conspirators at this time included: Seneca, Galba, Lucius Piso, Gaius Piso, and Seneca’s nephew ’Lucan the Poet’. Arrius Piso was 28 years old in 65 C.E.
The book ’Ur Marcus’ was given to the Jews, who soon rejected it. Of course, they maintained a company of their own private slaves which they used as scribes to make copies of their books to distribute to the masses, after which the slaves were killed. This practice was copied after the Egyptian Pharaoes’ practice of killing the slaves who worked on the inner-chamber of the Pyramids. For, these slaves also worked on the inner-circle of the ’triangle’ (the new trinity). Next, the book ’Ur Marcus’ was given to slaves and gentiles, who bought it hook, line, and sinker.
This new group of followers were called ’Gentile Christians’, or non-Jewish Christians. In 66 C.E., Arrius Piso deliberately provoked the Jewish revolt so that he could pave the way to destroying the Temple because the Jews were not accepting his Uncle’s story ’Ur Marcus’, which was intended to pacify the Jews.
About the year 70, Lucius Piso wrote another book called ’Ur Matthias’ (the two books that went to the Logia, ’Ur Marcus’ and ’Ur Matthias’ were written by Lucius Piso). Lucius Piso died in the year 73 C.E., that was when Arrius Piso inherited his works.
By the year 70, Arrius Piso and Titus’ army had destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. Somewhere between the year 70 and 75, Arrius Piso re-wrote his Uncle’s books and gave his Uncle’s fictional messiah the name ’Jesus’. It was Arrius Piso who thought to name the character ’Jesus’, because it was Joseph (Josephus) who was the father of the fictional Jesus in the story.
Small portion of historical facts. more at www.liesnomore.ne...

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Alpha_Wolf
lol its hilarious how pissed people can get. anyway time for my side. if you actually have been to a christian church you would realize jesus was created after man. there was a time before jesus but we still existed so unless something changed were in good shape.

who's pissed here???????

been to church....yeah...probably a few hundred you?


you said..." there was a time before jesus but we still existed so unless something changed were in good shape"


???????/

Are you rabbling here? point?

OT

Yes i am sorry i shouldn't have said how pissed people can get. But it is true, just not here. Also did you actually read my post or just see something you disagreed w/ and shot it down. Jesus came AFTER man, meaning man exisited BEFORE jesus, meaning unless God/Jesus had changed the way the world works then, we should be in the same situation as the people before jesus. If the question was that if it wasnt for god then we wouldnt exist, then you might have a point.

This thread is absolutely ridiculous you people should be ashamed. OT man you have to understand that first the bible has been misconstrued rewritten and mistranslated firstly secondly do you think that you'd be able to understand the context of the words. clearly the apostles were aiming to an audience so probably would have been something understood by them it would be llike walking into a conversation in the middle and left before the end. its incomplete in detail. and why not be open to other names of deitys. in my oppinion they represent a similar event that occurs throughout time. nature. what can you say. we are instruments of fate. im not dissing your very narrow possibly view of Jesus, god, everything in a whole. the world that these people lived in wasnt one of simple reality it was of vision an understanding. it takes more than putting your faith in one book alone. as i believe with all religions the storys should be smushed together. they all have a beginning middle and end. build the story combine them and throw in the hitchhikers guide (pretty much my other bible) then you may have a compilation of the description of a mans life. maybe many lives. why is it never brought up that because these figures buddah/jesus/mohammad/ share some kind of similar characteristic that makes them "special" see my issue with the bible mostly is just that because most of the books and such are letters so they dont go into great detail about what is the effect of the christ. hallucinations, hearing voices. upset stomache. this turned into a rant but thats what i do.
OT i see your faith but the blind man follows in dark

P.S. I have faith.

Originally posted by dodgygeeza
I am a much more caring and loving person than I EVER was under Christianity.

OT, your only concern is your own salvation. Deep down you know that is the truth. Preaching on a forum won't save you.

Even by your so-called "humbleness", I know the real reason behind it.

Enjoy your fear.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by dodgygeeza]

You know I've been thinking about your post a few days now...why would anyone think I'm fearful or in some way scared...what experience have you gone through that would lead you to think followers, true followers, would have fear?

please understand this following statement...please read it a few times...

"there is nothing you can DO to make God love you any MORE than he already does...and there is nothing you can DO to make him love you any LESS!"[/i]


God has not given us the spirit of fear...BUT OF POWER. LOVE AND A SOUND MIND 2Timothy 1:7

[edit on 21-2-2009 by OldThinker]