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If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…

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posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by TNT13
 


Yes, I hear you...maybe a conversation with a non-denominational elder may be better...I dunno..well here's some info to consider..


Amazingly Accurate Textual Transmission

While it is true that we do not have the original documents of the Old Testament, the accuracy of the Hebrew copyists is astonishing when comparing the scriptures to other literature of antiquity.

For example, while you can find wide variations in the few copies of the "Egyptian Book of the Dead", the discovery of the Great Isaiah Scroll among the Dead Sea Scrolls amazed the scholarly community:

"Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than than the oldest dated manuscript previous known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling. They do not affect the message of revelation in the slightest." (Archer, SQT, 23-25).4



link with much more... evidencetobelieve.net...

And...




Reliability of the Bible
Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original? Has the Christian church changed the Bible over the years or does it represent a reliable copy of the original autographs?
Did the Original New Testament Manuscripts still exist in the Second Century? By: Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D.
Misquoting Jesus: Does Bart Erhman Prove the New Testament is Corrupt? - Contrary to Erhman's claims, the New Testament canon was established in the early second century, and scribal errors/changes did not affect any significant Christian doctrine.
History of the Bible: How The Bible Came To Us - Manuscripts 101 - Where do they come from and why are there different "versions" of the Bible?
Is the Bible Really the Word of God? - Some of the evidence that the claims of the Bible are true.
The Proper Cure for the Disease
Archaeological evidence
Historicity of Jesus
Scientific evidence
The Bible's Uniqueness and Unity
Prophetic evidence
Survival in the Face of Persecution
References

Is Christianity a Made-up Myth Written by the Disciples? - Now really - would the disciples write about all their shortcomings, make the Christian church into a female, design heaven with no sex in it, and say that they were going to be married to Jesus in heaven? I don't know about you guys, but this is not what I would have written if I had made up the Bible!
Accurate Biblical Descriptions of Scientific Principles - What the Bible says about nature.
Are the Biblical Documents Reliable? by Jimmy Williams from Probe Ministries
The Historicity of the New Testament by JP Moreland
Jesus Christ as God and the Trinity Was Not Invented Until the Fourth Century? Is Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code) right about the origin of Christianity?
The "Gospel of Judas": National Geographic Attacks Christianity With Biased "Research"
"The Lost Tomb of Jesus": Have the Bones of Jesus Christ Been Found in Jerusalem?
Is the Biblical Flood Account a Modified Copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh?
Christ on Scripture by Richard L. Routh, Ph.D. - What did Jesus say about the Scripture?
Christian CADRE (Christian Colligation of Apologetics Debate Research & Evangelism)




lots of fine answers to those questions.. here... www.godandscience.org...




posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 



Yes the cheesiness bugged me too...but overall the message is good and needed (to me atleast)



posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 10:55 AM
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I am a much more caring and loving person than I EVER was under Christianity.

OT, your only concern is your own salvation. Deep down you know that is the truth. Preaching on a forum won't save you.

Even by your so-called "humbleness", I know the real reason behind it.

Enjoy your fear.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by dodgygeeza]



posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by dodgygeeza
 




I'm glad you are happy...

Me too...

Wish you all the best

OT (not fearful
)



posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


I'm not aiming to make a point
Merely trying to understand yours.




posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by TNT13
 



Ya the religious thinker can never wrap his/her own perspective around things, it always needs to be backed up by scripture; which to the common thinker who is more moral and spirtual then religious, takes this as complete BS because to us the Bible is outdated.


Although I completely agree with you I don't think they are the exclusive in society. Think on this:

The atheists use their guru's to back them up also. As a matter of fact, it is always humorous to me when I hear a Dawkins follower. Very easy on ATS! I have read his book, "The God Delusion" and find all his parishioners doing the Dawkins talk.


As a matter of fact; he is called Pope Dawkins by many, for a reason. He said in his book...

"My dream is that this book may help people come out...the easier it will be for others to join them. There may be a critical mass for the initiation of a chain reaction." Preface

"If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down." Page 5

Now, isn't that a piece of evangelism????

I am anti-religion of ALL sorts. He is only doing an evangelizing work that he feels is important, probably not realizing that he is no different than the ones he criticizes - like OT.





posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


Definately has to be radicals on both ends of the spectrum, I'm heard of this Dawkins character but haven't ever read into to him suppose now I'll have to take a look.



posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by TNT13
 



Definately has to be radicals on both ends of the spectrum, I'm heard of this Dawkins character but haven't ever read into to him suppose now I'll have to take a look.


Ya, you should! Since he is so revered in the atheist community. Possibly a brilliant man of science, but a philosopher he does not make!!



posted on Feb, 20 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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The same name as the Lucius Piso whose daughter married Julius Caesar - Lucius Calpernius Piso Caesoninus. That earlier Lucius Piso was in fact, also a Caesar! He was Julius Caesar’s father’s brother (That’s right, his uncle!). And Lucia Calpernia Piso was his first cousin. Marc Antony was Julius Caesar’s 2nd uncle.
Now, I will fill you in on some of the pertinent factors and motives of the time. There were many battles fought between the Romans and the Jews, on the field, and on paper - as propaganda.
Why? Well, for one thing, the Roman aristocratic way of life was at stake. It was one in which slavery played a major part. The Roman way of life was one based on power and control; the control of other people. The Jewish way of life was not tolerant of slavery, because it went against the humanistic teachings of Hillel the Pharisee. After the death of King Herod, the Herodian Priests were losing control of the Jewish masses, because of this new Pharisaic Party of Humanistic Jews.
Philippians 3:12 “Be all of you subject one to another, having your conversion ’honest’ among the Gentiles”
At first, they tried to give this new religion to the Jews (new wine in old bottles), but when the Jews wouldn’t accept it, they went to give it to the Gentiles (new wine in new bottles), and destroy the Jews. The proportion of Jews (Jewish Beth Hillel, zealots/Pharisees), in the Roman empire by the late 50’s C.E. was over 20%. As humanistic Jews, they were a threat to the Roman way of life, i.e., aristocratic. So, a few conspirators in the hierarchy decided to give the Jews a new religion - Christianity.
They synthesized this new religion, and based it upon the already existent Jewish religion, and using the Jewish books, they customized it to fit the Roman way of life.
The New Testament books were written after the supposed fact, so that it was easy for them to be self-fulfilling. The first ’Christian’ book written was ’Ur Marcus’, which was the proto- type for the book ’Mark’ that was written by Arrius Piso.
’Ur Marcus’ was written by Lucius (Lucillius) Calpernius Caesoninus Piso in about the year 60 C.E. (Perhaps closer to the year 62 C.E.). Even theologians agree that chronologically ’Mark’ would come before ’Matthew’. The main conspirators at this time included: Seneca, Galba, Lucius Piso, Gaius Piso, and Seneca’s nephew ’Lucan the Poet’. Arrius Piso was 28 years old in 65 C.E.
The book ’Ur Marcus’ was given to the Jews, who soon rejected it. Of course, they maintained a company of their own private slaves which they used as scribes to make copies of their books to distribute to the masses, after which the slaves were killed. This practice was copied after the Egyptian Pharaoes’ practice of killing the slaves who worked on the inner-chamber of the Pyramids. For, these slaves also worked on the inner-circle of the ’triangle’ (the new trinity). Next, the book ’Ur Marcus’ was given to slaves and gentiles, who bought it hook, line, and sinker.
This new group of followers were called ’Gentile Christians’, or non-Jewish Christians. In 66 C.E., Arrius Piso deliberately provoked the Jewish revolt so that he could pave the way to destroying the Temple because the Jews were not accepting his Uncle’s story ’Ur Marcus’, which was intended to pacify the Jews.
About the year 70, Lucius Piso wrote another book called ’Ur Matthias’ (the two books that went to the Logia, ’Ur Marcus’ and ’Ur Matthias’ were written by Lucius Piso). Lucius Piso died in the year 73 C.E., that was when Arrius Piso inherited his works.
By the year 70, Arrius Piso and Titus’ army had destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. Somewhere between the year 70 and 75, Arrius Piso re-wrote his Uncle’s books and gave his Uncle’s fictional messiah the name ’Jesus’. It was Arrius Piso who thought to name the character ’Jesus’, because it was Joseph (Josephus) who was the father of the fictional Jesus in the story.
Small portion of historical facts. more at www.liesnomore.ne...



posted on Feb, 20 2009 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Alpha_Wolf
lol its hilarious how pissed people can get. anyway time for my side. if you actually have been to a christian church you would realize jesus was created after man. there was a time before jesus but we still existed so unless something changed were in good shape.



who's pissed here???????



been to church....yeah...probably a few hundred you?


you said..." there was a time before jesus but we still existed so unless something changed were in good shape"


???????/

Are you rabbling here? point?

OT



Yes i am sorry i shouldn't have said how pissed people can get. But it is true, just not here. Also did you actually read my post or just see something you disagreed w/ and shot it down. Jesus came AFTER man, meaning man exisited BEFORE jesus, meaning unless God/Jesus had changed the way the world works then, we should be in the same situation as the people before jesus. If the question was that if it wasnt for god then we wouldnt exist, then you might have a point.



posted on Feb, 20 2009 @ 11:44 PM
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This thread is absolutely ridiculous you people should be ashamed. OT man you have to understand that first the bible has been misconstrued rewritten and mistranslated firstly secondly do you think that you'd be able to understand the context of the words. clearly the apostles were aiming to an audience so probably would have been something understood by them it would be llike walking into a conversation in the middle and left before the end. its incomplete in detail. and why not be open to other names of deitys. in my oppinion they represent a similar event that occurs throughout time. nature. what can you say. we are instruments of fate. im not dissing your very narrow possibly view of Jesus, god, everything in a whole. the world that these people lived in wasnt one of simple reality it was of vision an understanding. it takes more than putting your faith in one book alone. as i believe with all religions the storys should be smushed together. they all have a beginning middle and end. build the story combine them and throw in the hitchhikers guide (pretty much my other bible) then you may have a compilation of the description of a mans life. maybe many lives. why is it never brought up that because these figures buddah/jesus/mohammad/ share some kind of similar characteristic that makes them "special" see my issue with the bible mostly is just that because most of the books and such are letters so they dont go into great detail about what is the effect of the christ. hallucinations, hearing voices. upset stomache. this turned into a rant but thats what i do.
OT i see your faith but the blind man follows in dark

P.S. I have faith.



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by dodgygeeza
I am a much more caring and loving person than I EVER was under Christianity.

OT, your only concern is your own salvation. Deep down you know that is the truth. Preaching on a forum won't save you.

Even by your so-called "humbleness", I know the real reason behind it.

Enjoy your fear.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by dodgygeeza]




You know I've been thinking about your post a few days now...why would anyone think I'm fearful or in some way scared...what experience have you gone through that would lead you to think followers, true followers, would have fear?

please understand this following statement...please read it a few times...

"there is nothing you can DO to make God love you any MORE than he already does...and there is nothing you can DO to make him love you any LESS!"[/i]


God has not given us the spirit of fear...BUT OF POWER. LOVE AND A SOUND MIND 2Timothy 1:7

[edit on 21-2-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on Feb, 21 2009 @ 07:57 AM
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reply to post by Alpha_Wolf
 

Alpha_wolf,

Appreciate the respected foe tag amn!

my understanding of JC is He existed way before man....i can share the verses that bring me to that conclusion...

Yes, in Human form he came to earth after humans, to that point you are correct...



posted on Feb, 22 2009 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by dodgygeeza
I am a much more caring and loving person than I EVER was under Christianity.

OT, your only concern is your own salvation. Deep down you know that is the truth. Preaching on a forum won't save you.

Even by your so-called "humbleness", I know the real reason behind it.

Enjoy your fear.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by dodgygeeza]




You know I've been thinking about your post a few days now...why would anyone think I'm fearful or in some way scared...what experience have you gone through that would lead you to think followers, true followers, would have fear?

please understand this following statement...please read it a few times...

"there is nothing you can DO to make God love you any MORE than he already does...and there is nothing you can DO to make him love you any LESS!"[/i]


God has not given us the spirit of fear...BUT OF POWER. LOVE AND A SOUND MIND 2Timothy 1:7

[edit on 21-2-2009 by OldThinker]


Fear is only one aspect, either you play ball or you burn. The true followers have chosen not to take the risk. With any good deed in religion there is always a deep seated give and gain mentality. Giving money to the church, charity for a better life in heaven / brownie points from Jesus. Where people who would never have even thought about helping people before, they suddenly become "good" people, not because they have changed, but because they'll get a butt whipping if they don't do their homework.

I believe that the Christian faith would have far better and more loving people within their ranks if it was not for the THREAT and BLACKMAIL of hell. It is in my opinion a great way to attract some pretty nasty, hypocritical and judgemental people because of their own guilt, but that doesn't make them good people automatically. They'll continue to be selfish, but in line with the rules of the church (look at the Westboro Baptist Church). Also, this would also mean there would be far less devout followers because they would then be living their lives as best as they could. People don't tend to respond well to blackmail these days.

I'm a good person. I would never steal, never hate, kill etc. I do my best to help others without expecting anything in return but that in the modern bibles is not good enough. Demanding to be worshipped is too much of a human trait in my eyes, devised by someone who was themselves obsessed with being worshipped.

Fear equals control. Terrorism is the modern wrathful God. Unless we pay our taxes, give up our freedoms, fight wars, sell our privacy we will surely all burn in hell (or in Jet fuel in a skyscraper)

How could a loving God be capable of such unspeakable evil? What disgusting foul being could watch his creations writhe in agony while claiming to love his creations? There's no logic to it, and I don't care what human made argument is used to justify such a thing. Could you imagine watching your loved ones burn for not worshipping you? If you, a simple human being are not capable of such unspeakable evil, how could a perfect entity that supposedly loves more than you can possibly comprehend be capable of such things?

I'm not saying that your God doesn't exist, I just don't believe such a thing as hell could possibly exist. Torture and love don't go together, and even a simple human being like me can realise that. I think people are too afraid to question the bible. It's a perfect tool for manipulation. If you had the power to alter the bible a few centuries ago, you could literally control everyone. Don't you believe that there are people who haven't already done this, while manipulating the people into believing that so-called "Gods word" cannot be changed?

The ultimate form of control is when you make people believe that even THINKING about the bible in an incorrect way could put you in danger. Do you ever think "what if?" and then quickly shake those "sinful" thoughts out of your head? I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to question, but you probably don't want to because you believe it would be "too risky". That is what I call fear.

I apologise about how abrupt my previous post was, wasn't my intention to offend you.

[edit on 22-2-2009 by dodgygeeza]



posted on Feb, 22 2009 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by dodgygeeza
The ultimate form of control is when you make people believe that even THINKING about the bible in an incorrect way could put you in danger. Do you ever think "what if?" and then quickly shake those "sinful" thoughts out of your head? I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to question, but you probably don't want to because you believe it would be "too risky". That is what I call fear.

[edit on 22-2-2009 by dodgygeeza]


Thanks for your eloquence.
Everyone is called to change their minds.
But no one should be motivated by fear to do so.

Many years ago, I came to the same kind of conclusion as you.
And it has served me well since.
Whatever comes from fear is false.
So, there is a false gOd - the gOd of this world - promoted in the name of "Jesus".
But the truth of Jesus is not of this world, nor of the gOd of it.
Fear is the status quo in the world...how it begins and maintains.
We are the makers of fear, and the gOd of it.

The true GoD calls all to exchange fear for love.
This is the escape from hell.
Hell is not a threat, as it is made out to be in Jesus name.
Hell is a threat from those who are mad, angry, guilty and fearful.
Jesus was not mad, angry, guilty or fearful.
Many who associated with him were, and projected their state of mind onto his words.

To Jesus, the world was hell.
And those who don't change their minds are bound to stay.
Is that a threat, or is that wisdom?
It's wisdom, and for good reason.
Hell is a concept that the self-concepts within it want.
And from what we want, the true GoD cannot save us.
That means we are equal to God...with a will equal to God.
The true God will never overrule our will, or any will we think is our own.
Hell is an expression of a will we think is our own.
Hell is an expression of freedom which will last for as long as we wish.
Only in this regard does hell last "forever".

The good news is that all in hell are destined to change their minds.
All will change their minds motivated by love.
When this is finished, hell will vanish into the nothingness out of which it came.

Christ!





[edit on 22-2-2009 by Christ!]



posted on Feb, 22 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by dodgygeeza



Yeah no prob...no offense ever taken...

Appreciate your effort in the last post...

Your points are valid....but only for stages 1 and 2...

See...

The first stage Fowler calls Intuitive-Projective faith. It usually occurs between the ages of three and seven, and is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious. Imagination runs wild in this stage, uninhibited by logic. It is the first step in self-awareness and when one absorbs one's culture's strong taboos. The advantages of this stage are the birth of imagination and the growing ability to grasp and unify one's perception of reality. Stage one is also dangerous, though, in that the child's imagination can be "possessed" by unrestrained images of terror and destruction from the unconscious, and the exploitation of the fertile imagination by enforced taboos and indoctrination.





The second stage is called Mythic-Literal faith, in which symbol and ritual begin to be integrated by the child. These symbols, however, are one-dimensional. Only literal interpretations of myth and symbol are possible. The runaway imagination of stage one is here harnessed, and linear thinking becomes normative. Found mostly in school children (although one can maintain this state for life), stage two persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their cosmic powers are almost always anthropomorphic. Objective distance and critical evaluation of myth or symbology is impossible. Fowler describes a person in this stage as being both "carried and 'trapped' in" their own narrative. Stage two can be dangerous because the relentless belief in reciprocity forces the individual into a strict, overcontrolling perfectionism; their religious system will without doubt be either legalistic or else, in the case of abuse, the child may be convinced of his or her own irredeemability.



If interested in going beyond the fear of punishment or just doing good for the rward of heaven see here...many of us live there...link: jmm.aaa.net.au...

Alos you speak of level one faith according to Kolberg...see here for the other more mature stages


See oldthinkers post far down this page... www.abovetopsecret.com...

Read MLK's take on faith and see his positive impact...


I've moved beyond reward and punishment, and think you can too?

OT

As to being a good person, that's great...don't forget the Father's standard is PERFECTION...that's why we need help bro...

Either nice job joining!



posted on Feb, 22 2009 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Thank you OldThinker for sharing this clip! Lately I have been feverishly studying the Bible and I feel I am having a revelation. I think the human race as a whole is experiencing this (if they wish to except it). I have found that the Bible is full of modern day science, biology, math you name it and it is all there. It is so cool! We are able to understand the Bible now like never before and I am so excited to see this clip. I almost cried, what a wonderful time to be alive. Thanks again!!!



posted on Feb, 23 2009 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Yeah Yeah Yeah - I am always telling people about Jesus and they get bored.

God is judgement and Jesus is Love. Embrace Jesus and have eternal life (ok, I am a bit uncertain here ...) - I have never understood how Jesus and God are One. And where does the Holy Spirit come in?

It is perplexing, but at least I know that Jesus is Love.



posted on Feb, 23 2009 @ 12:50 AM
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True story honestly.


I took a dump this morning and the stool shaped itself into a cross. Does this mean I have a divine rear posterior? I mean like Holy Crap! Am I going to hell for flushing it? Should I have bagged it up and sent it to the Vatican?

Whoopie doo. I am going to go out on a limb here and say, could it just be a coincidence that laminin is shaped like a cross?

I swear you bible beaters. Anything you hear from a preachers mouth is the word of God.


Think Logic!



posted on Feb, 23 2009 @ 12:52 AM
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post three op it should have ended this whole thread
just give up



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