If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…

Originally posted by The Anti-Federalist
I am a Christian; however, this is nothing even close to unequivocal proof of anything. As one poster noted, the cross or t shape is the most logical shape for any binding element to take.

But more importantly is this. Most Christians unwittingly are breaking on of God's own commandments by kneeling in front of a cross, making the sign of the cross on their body (Catholics), praying in front of or to a cross...etc. God says that you shall not worship idols or symbols. The cross is in fact a symbol and although the intention is good by worshiping the symbol of the moment when Christ gave his life for us, it still is in violation of one of God's laws.

Glad you posted...question...did I ever condon/imply/say/think/suggest any one 'worshipping' a cross?

And yes you are right the video doesn't provide, as you said, unequivocal proof ...but it sure provided unequivocal discussion...discussions about some very serious matter, agree?

Originally posted by sciencenewby


Now Like I stated previously I am in the middle ground... I ponder weather or not he exists so I am not taking sides..

I'm ok with searching...and that takes time...

Have you heard a clear explanation of the gospel of JC?

OK...let's get to crunch time...

Here are some verses, I'd say truths...but we'll lieave at verses...

Respectfully...What side of the fense on you on with this below...?

Point 1. God LOVES you and offers a positive PLAN for your life. Verses that support this foundational principle are…
God's Love -"God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16 NIV).
God's Plan-[Christ speaking] "I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" [that it might be full and meaningful] (John 10:10).


Point 2. Man is SINFUL and SEPARATED from God. Therefore, he cannot know and experience God's love and plan for his life.
Man Is Sinful -"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).
Man Is Separated - "The wages of sin is death" [spiritual separation from God] (Romans 6:23).



Point 3. Jesus Christ is God's ONLY provision for man's sin. Through Him you can know and experience God's love and plan for your life.
He Died in Our Place - "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).
He Rose From the Dead - "Christ died for our sins...He was buried...He was raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures...He appeared to Peter, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred..." (1 Corinthians 15:3-6).
He Is the Only Way to God - "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6).


Point 4. We must individually RECEIVE Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord; then we can know and experience God's love and plan for our lives.
We Must Receive Christ - "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
We Receive Christ Through Faith - "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9).
We Receive Christ by Personal Invitation - [Christ speaking] "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him" (Revelation 3:20).

Thoughts?

Originally posted by rangersdad
reply to post by OldThinker

 

That is pretty cool!! I am going to have to look up that protein online too. I felt something come over when viewing that video too.

Thank you...oh...btw..Louie's got a few more videos...here are the links...

1) www.youtube.com...

2) www.youtube.com...

3) www.youtube.com...

4) www.youtube.com...

5) www.youtube.com...

Enjoy!!!!

How does written words of men translate into Humans not existing if it wasn't for Jesus???????? I know I'll get a long drawn out answer that will result in hypotheticals, so don't bother. Also how does a phrase about "holding-together" result in the absolute cold-hard facts that compare that phrase to a SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE; of which is much more difficult to explain then a simple phrase that can be interpurated as anything. I await more rediculousness tomorrow.

Regardless of what you believe to be "fact", you can't honestly think this is clear cut evidence. Would you win a court case with this, or would you be laughed out of court?????????

[edit on 18-2-2009 by TNT13]

reply to post by Dienekes


A * 4 U!

I really liked the way you worded your post:

Personally I don't think you could have true faith in God if that faith was only maintained on the basis of physical experiences. To me the concept of God is confined within an ethereal or spiritual plane that is separate from our physical science. I think there are certain aspects of both that coincide or connect the two in certain ways. I picture it somewhat as a ladder, two separate supports: Physical, Spiritual with the rungs connecting the two. It leads to one destination that can only be achieved by recognizing, and using each aspect of the ladder for without one support or the rungs, the ladder can not be climbed. That's the best way for me to describe the relation of science and religion.

You succinctly explained why in essence an atheist cannot understand why one would believe in God. Now, I separate religion from God as I find in the end that religion suppresses a divine connection.

Thanks!

Originally posted by TNT13
How does written words of men translate into Humans not existing if it wasn't for Jesus???????? I know I'll get a long drawn out answer that will result in hypotheticals, so don't bother. Also how does a phrase about "holding-together" result in the absolute cold-hard facts that compare that phrase to a SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE; of which is much more difficult to explain then a simple phrase that can be interpurated as anything. I await more rediculousness tomorrow.

Regardless of what you believe to be "fact", you can't honestly think this is clear cut evidence. Would you win a court case with this, or would you be laughed out of court?????????

[edit on 18-2-2009 by TNT13]

"Clear" evidence? Of course not!

One additional thing to consider..yes!

OT

Originally posted by TNT13
Also how does a phrase about "holding-together" result in the absolute cold-hard facts that compare that phrase to a SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE;

Never said it was a FACT....

It is information..."I present, you decide"...but I'm no FOX

reply to post by MatrixProphet


MP, I must have missed that post...lots of truth there...

OT

Originally posted by TNT13
.Also how does a phrase about "holding-together" result in the absolute cold-hard facts that compare that phrase to a SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLE;

Well the holding-together ting is very complicated…I am attempting to understand what I can…here are the half-dozen pieces of information that are contributing to my research…

1) ‘Faith’-Greek ‘pitis’ Translation=belief (spoken)
2) ‘Substance’- Greek ‘hupostasis’ Translation=substructure/actual existence/real being/ substantial quality, nature, of a person or ‘thing’
Hebrews 11:1 ‘FAITH’ is the ‘SUBSTANCE’ of THINGS…

3) Jesus Christ ‘HOLDS’ all things together. Here are some verses and thoughts…
a. Verses: John 1:1-3 & 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
b. Verses: Col 1:15-17 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
c. Thought: The Word of God was in the beginning before anything was created. The Word of God always was, the Word of God had no beginning. In the beginning the Word of God was God. The Word of God created all things that ever existed and nothing has ever existed apart from the Word of God. The Word of God became flesh, He became a human, He became one of us and lived with us. He revealed the glory of God to us, He made God known to us. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is God and always was God, the Creator of all things. Jesus Christ is the one and only Almighty God.
d. Thought: We cannot see God but when we see Jesus Christ we see God, because Jesus Christ is the image of God. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to reveal God to us. Being called the first-born of all creation could not mean that He was the first to be created because He Himself is the creator of all things. The first-born of all creation conveys the idea that He has the birthright to all creation, the idea that He is the head of all creation. All creation is subject to Him, He is the ruler of all creation, because He was before all creation and all creation comes from Him. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not only created all things by His power but He also holds all things together by His power. Jesus Christ is God Almighty.

4) What’s missing in Quantum Physics? Mathematically, why doesn’t it all break apart? The more we learn about subatomic particles called ‘gluons’, the more the universe seems to be made of nothing at all? Scientist says that all the electrons and subatomic particles of an atom are held together in their precise position and orbit by an invisible force, by which without it, everything would fall apart and reality as we know it, would cease to exist in an instant.

Quotes from Discovery Magazine in 2000, “The weirdness comes from the gluons. Quantum chromodynamics, the force that holds protons together, is modeled closely on quantum electrodynamics, the force that holds atoms together—but the gluons change screening to antiscreening, intuitive to bizarre.” And, “The closer you look, the more you find the proton is dissolving into lots of particles, each of which is carrying very, very little energy," says Wilczek. "And the elements of reality that triggered the whole thing, the quarks, are these tiny little things in the middle of the cloud. In fact, if you follow the evolution to infinitely short distances, the triggering charge goes to zero. If you really study the equations, it gets almost mystical." More info here: discovermagazine.com...

Another question? Saw this on ‘Genius Forum’ Is there substance that holds all things together? According to the ‘Bundle Theory’ there isn't. It says all things are just bundles or sums of their properties. The objection to this view comes from the substrate theory which asks: If there is no substance what is it that holds these properties together? There must be some substance that has these properties is what they say.

We never reach the substance because whenever we talk about something we talk about its properties. The definition of substance makes it impossible. Substance would be something that has no properties, which is unthinkable.

At the fundamental level all things are made out of subatomic particles, if I'm not mistaken. Namely, electrons, protons and neutrons. The number of protons in a nucleus determines an atom's chemical element, and chemical elements and their various combinations are what everything is made of (excluding dark energy and dark matter).

However there is an even more fundamental level. Leptons, quarks (particles that make up protons and neutrons) and gauge bosons (which are the carriers of fundamental forces) are regarded as fundamental particles because they have no substructure that we know of. If this is true then they are the particles from which everything else is made of, which makes them the closest we get to substance.”


5) God is LIGHT and the speed of light

Bible Verse: I John 1:5 Verse: This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
Thought: The language in this passage is not metaphorical. John does not assert that God is "like light" or that he "can be compared to light." He asserts that God is light, and contrasts this light to darkness. Darkness is the absence of light.
Speed of Light: Is defined such that the speed of light in a vacuum is exactly 299,792,458 miles per second.

So… If you could spin a carousel fast enough to get its rim moving at nearly the speed of light, would time stand still for people on the carousel? At least in the theoretical sense, this idea is reasonable. If the carousel were spinning so that the outer edge of the carousel moved at nearly the speed of light, then time would appear to slow down for people on the carousel. When the carousel riders looked out at the world spinning by, the days would pass very quickly. So the people on the carousel would age very slowly relative to people not on the carousel. This would create, essentially, a time machine that lets the passengers on the carousel travel into the future. Certainly there are scientists that surmise there is no time at a post speed of light dimension?


6) God is ETERNAL
Bible Verses: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. John 4:24
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them. Deuteronomy 33:27

7) Infinite vs. Finite: Since there is (supposedly) no time in eternity…at that realm there is no past, present and future. How does ‘vantage point’ help with perception? God did say IAM that IAM…from what I’ve studied that means the continual state of BEING. Could that be past the speed of light being? Eternity? Another dimension?

Laminin doesn't really look like a cross, see for yourself:
meatofthematter.files.wordpress.com...

Laminin is a protein found in all animals, yes rats and cockroaches have laminin. Recently it has been discovered that laminin helps cancer spread:
www.cbcrp.org...

Fundamentalist's latest lame attempt to convert people into Christianity has failed.

Originally posted by OldThinker
If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…

Christ pre-exists "the universe".
The universe is born of unbelief in Christ.
So,
The universe is a belief in what is not Christ.
It is held together by faith.
Faith is the "substance" of things hoped for,
the "evidence" of things unseen.

Everything in the universe "exists" as Christ is denied.
Christ denies the existence of the universe.
The universe denies the existence of Christ.
So there is a converse relationship.
The universe parades as reality and truth.
The truth states that it does not exists but as a belief born of unbelief.
Acceptance of the truth leads to the realization that self-concepts do not exist.
Denial of the truth leads to the continued experience of "existence" born of belief in all that is untrue.
So,
As the truth dies, we live.
As the truth lives, we die.

The truth is the truth about us.
So,
We can never really die.
We will either change form endlessly, or,
We will accept the Truth as what we are...and experience it.

Jesus knew that self-concepts are non-existent.
But the experience of a non-existent self-concept continues with belief.
The authentic message of Jesus threatens the "existence" of self-concepts.
That is, belief in Christ threatens the existence of men.
So,
It is not well recieved at first, and very much resisted and confused.

Christ!





[edit on 18-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Leto

Laminin is a protein found in all animals, yes rats and cockroaches have laminin.

Data, scripture says "In Him ALL things consist...guess would include rats, too

If you have timme please read my lengthy post just before yours, thoughts?

reply to post by Christ!


lotta meat in that post...pls give me sometime to assimilate

www.godonthe.net...

"I've heard that Jesus never actually claimed He was God."

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'"

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus was highly misunderstood by MANY. He didn't claim to be THE God, just PART of God, which WE ALL ARE. That is what he was trying to teach us, but nobody understood his cryptic words.

He was trying to say that HE, and ALL OF US, are IN GOD.

When he says "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father", that is like a cryptic way of saying "if you can actually see the light reflecting off me, and into your eyes, what you see (light) is the Father".

YOU, ME, EVERYONE, EVERYTHING is "inside" this universe. Inside "God". If you can see ME, if you can see the blue sky, you are looking at the Father, GOD.

Clear as day here is Jesus' words: John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Physically, this is 100% true. He was talking physically. That is why he said this; "or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."

He is asking you to physically acknowledge his physical miracles. Jesus doesn't care if you believe HIM, but at LEAST believe the physical miracles. Acknowledge his control/manipulation of the physical.

For those that think God is in some "spiritual realm" that is separate from the "physical", you are INCORRECT. There is no such thing as "separate", that would insist that something exists outside of God. There is nothing larger than God, and God does NOT exist "in" something.

Think of the entire universe like it is a house. God does not live in the house, he IS the house. WE, and Jesus, live in the house. WE are a small part of the house, and everything you see is a small part of the house.

The physical and the spiritual are both in the same house, because they are both a part, a section, a piece of God.

Also, Jesus did exist. Maybe his name wasn't Jesus, maybe there are a few rumors that got spread about him so everyone gets a different opinion, but he DID exist.

Much like Santa Clause. To this day Santa Clause is used as a "model". Most people know that "Santa Clause" does not exist, but a LOT of the rumors and knowledge about Santa came from a real person named "Saint Nicholas".

en.wikipedia.org...

It's the same case with Jesus, and all the other "saviors" in religion.







[edit on 18-2-2009 by ALLis0NE]

reply to post by OldThinker


My mistake then but the title of the thread was a bit misleading; I mean it seems like a statement of factual evidence. Although I myself was so stupid to think, religion would be supported by actual fact, hasn't happened yet why should I suggest so. Although I totally disagree with your position, I absolutely agree with how you debate; best of luck reaching out to those who would listen, I am just not one of them.

Originally posted by ALLis0NE
www.godonthe.net...

"I've heard that Jesus never actually claimed He was God."

I hear you...have you comtemplated...

www.notasermon.org...

Jesus is never recorded in the Bible as saying the exact words, “I am God.” That does not mean He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” At first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, ‘“We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God”’ (John 10:33). The Jews understood Jesus’ statement that He claimed to be God. In the following verses Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Again in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God?

And...

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas, the disciple, declared to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. In Revelation, an angel instructed the Apostle John to only worship God (Rev 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matt 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. Although Jesus never commands people to worship Him, He never discourages them either. If Jesus was not God, He would have told people not to worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation had. There are many other verses and passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity. The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) Only God could pay such an infinite penalty.

Check out the above site and we'll talk ok?

OT

Originally posted by TNT13
reply to post by OldThinker

 

My mistake then but the title of the thread was a bit misleading; I mean it seems like a statement of factual evidence. Although I myself was so stupid to think, religion would be supported by actual fact, hasn't happened yet why should I suggest so. Although I totally disagree with your position, I absolutely agree with how you debate; best of luck reaching out to those who would listen, I am just not one of them.

No problem!


Why are you not one of them..?

OT

Originally posted by TNT13

Regardless of what you believe to be "fact", you can't honestly think this is clear cut evidence. Would you win a court case with this, or would you be laughed out of court?????????

[edit on 18-2-2009 by TNT13]

Totally agree, you will probably do time for wasting the courts time

Where is the 'conspiracy' in this post.

Forgive me OT, but I have read a few of your posts on ATS now, and I have to say, the original (first) post is not you speaking. It looks as if you have been doing some cutting and pasting.

Maybe I am wrong. If I am, sorry.

But really, you should get out more, and it came as no surprise to be bombarded with quotes out of the bible.

How tiresome IMO.

Originally posted by OldThinker
If you have timme please read my lengthy post just before yours, thoughts?

I'll consider reading it as soon as you comment on my two other points I made in my post that you apparently ignored, namely the fact that laminin doesn't really look like a cross (meatofthematter.files.wordpress.com...), and that it has recently been discovered that laminin helps spread cancer (www.cbcrp.org...).