If it wasn’t for Jesus, you would cease to exist! Really…

I am standing here in the middle ground... I always ponder at the existence of god.. not really knowing.

But I also look at science.. and wonder if science is the answer to all?


Maybe they are intertwined?

but this video and this whole topic is a real embarassment to religion...

Maybe OT you are right in your beleifs in god... but using a cross symbol used for a protein to prove it.....

the protein doesnt even look like that. that is our graphical representation of that protein.

just like nuetrons and protons dont look like planets orbing a sun.... we just use that representation to teach with to make it easy to understand....



Also.... the cross is a false idol... man chose that idol and worship it. Jesus was a man not a cross..

jesus was killed on this cross... yes his sacrafice for us shows his intention... his love....

but what does that have to do with the cross.... if he was speared to death or shot with a bow would you worship that?

the cross has nothing to do with jesus... he was killed on it... he ate with a fork.... should we worship that as well?

OT my question to you at the end of this rant... why should we correlate the cross and jesus?

find me the scripture that says JESUS HIMSELF asks us to use the cross to represent anything that has to do with him?

You showed us websites that backup the fact jesus existed

You showed us that there are cross shaped proteins inside of us (which arent cross shaped in reality but thats a different topic)

show me where jesus says to worship the cross... to make it a holy object.. to correlate his existance with things that are shaped the same as a cross.

when you can do that... you have my vote.

reply to post by liesnomore



hmmm??????

Have you seen?

A History of Scholarly Refutations of the Jesus Myth

Link: bede.org.uk...

You should at least learn why you believe he was a myth...and that there is overwhelming evidence HE did...

Enjoy the research...you're destiny depends on it..sorry for being heavy

Originally posted by sciencenewby
show me where jesus says to worship the cross... to make it a holy object.. to correlate his existance with things that are shaped the same as a cross.

when you can do that... you have my vote.

Why do that? It would be wrong....I don't worship a thing (a cross) but I am respectful as the Apostle Paul was...remember...

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. " Galatians 2:20


"God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." Galatians 6:14


"...the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18



"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame -- who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body...." Philippians 3:18-21

The cross is not to be worshiped...BUT RESPECTED...hope this helps

[edit on 18-2-2009 by OldThinker]

reply to post by sciencenewby




oh yeah I forgot some...


"He said to them all, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory..." Luke 9:23-26



" And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost..." Luke 14:27-28



"... he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." Matthew 10:38-39




"Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, 'One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.'” Mark 10:21


"Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect." 1 Corinthians 1:17




What about the offense of the cross



"...if I still preach circumcision [conforming to accepted cultural standards], why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased." Galatians 5:11



"As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ." Galatians 6:12



The crosss...yeah I respect it!!!!

So you are respectful of the cross... because of the meaning behind it.. that jesus was crucified upon it...

then why correlate a cross shaped protein with jesus... the cross isnt jesus...nor is the cross proof jesus exists..

so if the cross itself isnt jesus or proof that jesus existed... just a powerful symbol because he died on it...

then why is a cross symbol for a protein become proof of god?


This debate has nothing to do with God's or Jesus' existance so do not take insult to my words....

this debate is about the symbol of the cross and a protein inside of us pointing to the existance of god.

[edit on 18-2-2009 by sciencenewby]

reply to post by sciencenewby



The video is only ONE peice of information....

Kinda like a discussion starter, in this case...(for the thread)

Would I have only the video as the source of my belief, I'd be narrow, naive and short-sighted...

Just thought it was a neat video...really the message is more important than the 'science' I dunno?

Good questions there poster!

I know that Jesus was a "fictional character" in the bible book as well as other characters. Internet it is a great source of information. Look and you will find it or leave in darkness. The book " Who wrote the Bible" and history behind the Bible was published a long time ago ,but was suppressed by the Church. Other related books was published, but was suppressed. Organize religions are loosing a "grep" on controlling the information as the government due to internet. From the age of a 6 years old to 11 years old I was attending a "cathehizm classes" and I was fooled just like most of the people. I did not took for granted the information imposed on me by the Church and stared to learn about other religions and begin to understand of what it is behind of every religion. "Submit and give" it is a motto of every religion,false prophets and fictional books.

reply to post by liesnomore



OT's sorry you experienced a legalist form of religion...

I didn't...

Take a few minutes and see real FAITH please.... Jesus too had the same beef you do with the zealots...

search.live.com...

What is the different between a religion and having a relationship with God? How is faith in Christ unique, entirely different from all of the world religions? Why do so many people seem to prefer a religion to a genuine relationship with God?

Great Questions!!!!

See here for well-thought-through answers...

www.gotquestions.org...

Originally posted by liesnomore
I know that Jesus was a "fictional character" in the bible book as well as other characters. Internet it is a great source of information. Look and you will find it or leave in darkness. The book " Who wrote the Bible" and history behind the Bible was published a long time ago ,but was suppressed by the Church. Other related books was published, but was suppressed. Organize religions are loosing a "grep" on controlling the information as the government due to internet. From the age of a 6 years old to 11 years old I was attending a "cathehizm classes" and I was fooled just like most of the people. I did not took for granted the information imposed on me by the Church and stared to learn about other religions and begin to understand of what it is behind of every religion. "Submit and give" it is a motto of every religion,false prophets and fictional books.

actually your wrong from the very start.... religion and religous books never ask you to submit and give.... church and cults do that.... people do that..

show me where in any religious book it says to give anything to anyone..
if you actually read the books... (which I actually have not) you would know it doesnt ask you to give anything to anyone (physically) It does ask for you to obey basic laws of mankind... which religious or not you should do anyways.

also it asks you to relax on sundays.... god forbid you do some relaxing.

and theres a couple other things in there.... but it doesnt ask you to kneel to anyone or give money to anyone. that is CHURCH.

church and religion are two different things.


[edit on 18-2-2009 by sciencenewby]

I apologize if this has been said already in this thread, but I have not the time, nor the patience to read through all 300-something posts.

But personally, I think that Jesus would not exist, if not for man. Not the other way around.
I know, a rather broad assessment, but I am merely a lurker here. So expect not a clarification. Besides, I have niether the time nor the patience.

Old Thinker-that link and information in there are based on myth and legend, but none of them are based on historical facts. At www.liesnomore.net... it is a article on religions and links to source of information. I know that it is a "hard to swallow" but when you look into other sources then you will come up with more rational conclusion. The idea in the bible book was good, but was distorted by greed of organize religions. It was fictional story converted to a religion by some unscrupulous people to control a masses.
I know that I am offending a lot of a people, but some need to tell the truth.

reply to post by liesnomore



No offense taken...if you're up to it ill show you some things later tonight that may change your mind...

This is fun....God bless you...glad u joined thread

liesnomore

you need to take a step back before you dig yourself into a deep hole...

There is no hard written evidence that jesus existed... they dont have his body... they dont have much documentation on the man...

but there is also no hard evidence he didnt exist...

Now Like I stated previously I am in the middle ground... I ponder weather or not he exists so I am not taking sides..

but again... just like OT said molecules are proof of jesus.... and how rediculous did that sound?

even if he did exist.... thats not the proof

now you sit here and say he is a fairy tail..... and link some opinion filled articles based on .... oh yeah, opinions.

you sound just as rediculous trying to disprove OT


Jesus will not be proved or disproved anytime soon... unless you die?? So until he shows up for round 2... or you die? Then please dont make wild accusations that he exists or doesnt exist.





[edit on 18-2-2009 by sciencenewby]

I am not making a wild accusations, but rather pointing to a source of information that the Bible and all characters in are fictional. As you said-there is no proof of Jesus existence, but there is proof of Bible as fictional book converted to a religion. There are religions way older that Christianity,Muslim or Judaism. The Bible is base on myth and legends from those older religions(cults).If you want to count the numbers-more people believe in Hindu religion that Christianity.!6000 years before Christianity- there was a Sumerian religion.5000 years B.C there was a Hindu religion. 3000 years D.C was an Egyptian religion.None of them mention a name of Jesus, but every one of them have a savior character in it.
If you want to believe in Bible - remember the 10 Commandments?
What the #1 is telling you?-"thau shall have no gods over me".
By putting a Jesus on the pedastial and worship him as a God then you are violating the 1st Commandment as Jesus was not son of the God in form as he was a God. Even Bible will tell you that he was not a God in any form.
According to Bible-we are all a sons and daughters of the God and are part of the God.

There is only one statement to make when confronting religious zealots such as OT.
Please present evidence that god exists....so far you have presented NONE.
On the contrary, I can present evidence that god does NOT exist.

I've been following this thread for a bit now and am actually a little shocked to see it still chugging along, hahah. But it's nice to see all the discussion going, and for the most part it's fairly friendly.

In my opinion, the protein Laminin being in the shape of a cross is meaningless and doesn't prove a thing as to us owing our existence to Jesus.

In the diagrams, sure, the protein does resemble the cross. The symbol of the cross is a fairly simple shape at that though... really just two lines that cross each other and that's that. It would be really easy to see that EVERYWHERE. However looking at the microscopic photos taken of Laminin, it's squiggly and floppy and folds this way and that... doesn't really look like anything significant at all...

As well I think someone mentioned the Potassium channel that's found in our brains. It slightly resembles a Swastika, which really would be a much more complex symbol to make out in nature and surely some raging lunatic would be able to come out and seriously try and convince people that we should bow down to Hitler, and sound half as convincing as you.

Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild
There is only one statement to make when confronting religious zealots such as OT.
Please present evidence that god exists....so far you have presented NONE.
....

Zealot? Appreciate the compliment G. Your cacoon would be more comfortable if the OT-likes were half-assed in their faith. Ever heard of 'luke-warn' in revelation?

OT's still prayin for ya!
Wish you all the best. Did you ever go to the library and get that book EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT that I suggested ?

reply to post by sciencenewby


S, Appreciate the 'Mills Lane' tone! Quite balanced

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


lol you should said "evidence that demands a verdict parallel to mine