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And Then They Call Our Minds Closed

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posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:01 AM
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It seems that not a day passes on ATS without someone posting a new thread berating 'closed-minded sceptics' - you know, those awkward folk who demand reasonable evidence before accepting the latest bizarre report or theory as true. The latest of these efforts is here. As always in these threads, the Believers get together and have a good old rip into the sceptics and the sheeple, the dullards who support the general scientific consensus and are deeply suspicious about reports of UFOs, 9/11 theories, chemtrails and all the rest. The most frequent accusation is that such people refuse to think for themselves - unlike the Believers, or course, who are 'open-minded' and always open to new ideas.

Well, fiddlesticks.

The boot of gullibility is on the other foot. Your average conspiracy theorist, New Age visionary or Indigo Child will swallow anything as long as it accords with his cherished beliefs. He'd swallow a whale if it swam up to him and professed undying belief in his pet theory. But offer him the tiniest shred of evidence contradicting that theory and watch him explode in fury, call you names, misunderstand or misrepresent what you say, embark on long rants about the arrogance and soulless cynicism of unfairly privileged reason and at last, when all else fails, ignore you and go back to babbling nonsense with his fellow-believers. However plainly you put your case, however easy to understand and incontrovertible your evidence, it will not make a blind bit of difference. His ears are shut, his eyes are closed. His brain has put its shutters up for the duration.

You think, ladies and gentlemen, that perhaps I exaggerate? I do not. If anything, I understate the case. For proof, voici this thread, currently experiencing high activity in the Space Exploration forum:

Someone Please Explain To Me - The Theory that Jupiter Ignited - while behind the Sun right now.

The fact is, Jupiter is (1) not behind the sun right now, which allows us to see for ourselves that (2) it hasn't caught fire, or turned into a star, or whatever the heck is supposed to have happened to it. All that is needed to learn the truth is to go out into the garden any time from half an hour after sunrise onwards and look east. Until the sun rises, you'll see Jupiter, low and ascending, beautiful and unchanged, just where you would expect to see it. And after the sun rises it will be evident that there is - ahem - only one star visible in the sky.

So you'd think nothing could be simpler to disprove than this unlikely - to say the least - theory. Only - well, go over to the thread and take a look at what's happening. It's carnage.

A sceptic - to use the terminology so much in favour here on ATS - is obliged to change his views when he is given compelling evidence for doing so. If he doesn't he is obliged to resign the position of sceptic. The thing about sceptics is that they refuse to believe against the evidence.

A Believer is subject to no such restriction, so a believer can and will believe anything. And he won't hear a word to the contrary.




posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
All that is needed to learn the truth is to go out into the garden any time from half an hour after sunrise onwards and look east. Until the sun rises, you'll see Jupiter, low and ascending, beautiful and unchanged, just where you would expect to see it. And after the sun rises it will be evident that there is - ahem - only one star visible in the sky.


Allow me to begin by stating that I know absolutely nothing of this debate of Jupiter igniting. (As a matter of fact, I feel as though I have to spend some more time here on ATS to catch-up on this topic.) I also have to definitely admit, I am quite ignorant when it comes to astronomy.

Having said that...I thought when we look to the stars and planets, because of their distance in light-years away...we are actually seeing what the star/planet looked like decades or hundreds of years ago? If this is not correct, please reread my preceding paragraph.

I hesitated jumping into this conversation knowing so little, but couldn't resist.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by MOFreemason
 


Oh dear.


At our closest point in our orbit, 390,682,810 miles (628,743,036 km). The Earth is 93,000,000 miles (149,668,992 km) from the Sun. Jupiter is 483,682,810 miles (778,412,028 km) from the Sun. At our most distant, 576,682,810 miles (928,081,020 km), when we're on opposite sides of the Sun. 1


Speed of light: 299 792 458 m/s

Light from Jupiter takes 1 to 3 seconds to reach earth.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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Well your right about the light of stars being light years away, but planets in our own galaxy are not light years away. The light from the sun takes about 4 minutes to reach earth so your theory is pretty much bunk. Anyways not having a go at you just wanted to point you in the right direction.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by MOFreemason
 


Oh dear.


At our closest point in our orbit, 390,682,810 miles (628,743,036 km). The Earth is 93,000,000 miles (149,668,992 km) from the Sun. Jupiter is 483,682,810 miles (778,412,028 km) from the Sun. At our most distant, 576,682,810 miles (928,081,020 km), when we're on opposite sides of the Sun. 1


Speed of light: 299 792 458 m/s

Light from Jupiter takes 1 to 3 seconds to reach earth.





Correction.

The light from Jupiter takes anywhere from 2 seconds to over 16 minutes depending on where it is in it's orbit compared to ours. This is based on the fact that light from the sun takes a little over 8 minutes to reach the Earth and Jupiter is even farther away.

If I pound a stake in the ground and stand 15 feet away from it and you stand 14 feet away from it that doesn't mean we are standing one foot apart.

--------------------------EDIT-------------------------------


Wow, it actually takes over 43 minutes for sunlight to reach Jupiter. So if Jupiter were just barely visible on the other side of the sun the light would be over 52 minutes old.

-----------------Another edit------------------------------

What is the speed of gravity?
I just read that if the sun disappeared that we would still see it for a little over 8 minutes. Would the Earth keep orbiting a non-existent star for 8 minutes though? Or would immediately go into a straight line trajectory?

This is gonna keep me up.



[edit on 16-2-2009 by Tiloke]



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:25 AM
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reply to post by Tiloke
 


We both stand corrected:



The giant planet Jupiter, whose large moons Galileo discovered with his "trouble-making" telescope, is more than 5 times farther from the Sun than the Earth is. We see a planet like Jupiter because its light—which like the other planets and the Moon originates on the Sun—takes about 43 minutes to reach Jupiter. The return trip to the Earth can take from 35 to 52 minutes, depending on whether we are on the same side of the Sun as Jupiter or on the other side.pbs.org


Point is, it doesn't take years.


Edit to address the OP:

Belief, in the conventional sense of the word, requires a combination of small amounts of knowledge squeezed it to defend a faith based conceptual point of view. Usually the dogma comes first and random facts are forced around it to make the case.






[edit on 16 Feb 2009 by schrodingers dog]



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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Astyanax - Excellent post! And I agree with you wholeheartedly!

I am skeptical of the whole mindset of "I want to believe". I am leery of people who are so eager to believe whatever is put out there. I am pragmatic and logical and I need more than a few "coincidences" before I buy a conspiracy.

Until there is proof or an abundance of pretty solid evidence on a particular theory, I'm going to consider it a "possibility". I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and become a believer.

Call me closed-minded if you wish. I don't care.

I don't see ATS as a place to hang out with others who believe the same conspiracies that I do. I see it as a place where the membership is so diverse and PERMITTED to be diverse by the implementation of the T&C here, that the full gamut of thought can be explored. That's the key (in my opinion) to finding the truth. Seeing both sides, both extremes, and being able to work with others to find the truth that's hidden in there.

I won't link to my most recent experience but I was specifically asked for my input on a conspiracy theory and I took the time and energy to answer each item presented and gave a long post on my thoughts and why I didn't believe the conspiracy theory.

And I was attacked. So, it's clear the author didn't really want my opinion, rather wanted to argue or convince me or something, and let me know how wrong I was. Then, when I refused to "fight" about it, I was further disparaged. All because I didn't believe in the conspiracy theory.

We're all different and we all see things through our own context. So, of course we're going to have different opinions on different conspiracies. And different levels of "willingness" to believe.

But it's a HUGE mistake to think that one's eagerness to believe a conspiracy theory is somehow related to open-mindedness. A good conspiracy theorist is a critical thinker and skeptical. (I think Valhall first said that years ago, but I'm not sure).



I didn't know the thread was about Jupiter. And I don't have anything to say about Jupiter. So... never mind.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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I had to laugh out loud when I read your posts, realizing just how WRONG I was.

Thank you for correcting me, which is quite embarassing. But, I did give forewarning that my astronomy knowledge is quite poor.

I knew I was in trouble when I read, "Oh Dear." ; )

Thank you for going easy on me!



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 


I here you Astyanax!

It's always the same old story here. If you disagree with someones outrageous pet theory, they call you closed minded because lets face it, they can't argue with you using quantifiable data. Without fail, they resort to the old straw man arguments.

"You're closed minded" really translates into:

"You're not willing to believe in something mind numbingly stupid".

Therefore, I take the supposed insult as a form of praise and wear it like a badge!

These are people who never grew out of placing a torch below their chins and telling faux ghost stories around the campfire, thus forcing themselves and all their friends to sleep with the covers firmly drawn over their heads each night.

It's kind of comical really.

IRM



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 10:17 AM
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I hear you, Astya.

It seems to be a more common feeling these days, including myself- www.abovetopsecret.com...'



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 10:39 AM
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Skeptics.

I don't like labels. I find there are all types on ATS. Don't think it's reasonable to stick em in one box or another. I certainly don't fit into an either/or catagory. The day I stop digging for truth of myself and the mutilverse is the day someone else picks up that shovel and buries me.

As I've stated in other posts, I greatly appreciate the professional brains on this site. Those that have advanced education in science, astronomy -on ATS there are pilots, professors, engineeres, military types, life experience ect.

You get a group of free thinking people togeather and I know at least one, prolly more, will piss me off with what I deem as a rediculous statement. It's how I choose to react that I feel makes a difference. Instead of demeaning them in a post thus opening my own self up to negative energy directed at myself, I'll sneer privately, vocalize the post to my husband, we'll have a good laugh at how bizarre some minds work -then I move on. Especially on a site like ATS, while many subjects evoke emotion to get to the truth of a matter we must stay logical and factual.

And how I state labeling is unapplicable, I don't think any thoughts should be wholeheartedly discounted. If I enjoy a thread I read every single post. That's true openmindedness. Every story should be looked at from every angle - I don't know how else we'd logically find the truth. I do find the personal spats distracting and almost hijacking a thread. Evoke emotion and get off topic thus swaying the conversation away from the orginal post and people stop reading and contributing.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 10:40 AM
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Thank you!

It always cracks me up to sit on here and listen to people decry the evils of psychotropic drugs and therapy when an awful lot of posters clearly need them.
I feel very sorry for all the wanna-be "Indigo Children," Rapturists and UFO abductees who've been duped by C-grade Sci-Fi marketing. It ain't happening folks, as we say here. This poster made a great point, making up far fetched fantasies will get you branded as a freak and all the social rejection that entails.

If you guys want to convert the masses you are going to have to do better than cite World Net Daily and the other kook sites. Haven't you all clued in to the fact that 99.9 percent of the nonsense spouted on those sites never pans out?



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by GreyFoxSolid
 

Yes, I left a post on your thread. Excellent OP, by the way.

Generally the cookier they get the happier I am, but this belligerent kind of obscurantism kind of gets to me. The horror and the pity.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 11:52 AM
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Wanting to believe is good.. but can be negative depending how one uses it to form consensus.

Here's my take. I'm going to use an example of a personal battle I have been struggling with. First let me say that I love to debate theorum with others over things I deem to be truth, possible truth or that I debunk. For the beliefs I hold debate is healthy. NONE of us really know the truth 100% behind anything, be in religion, life, government, whatever. Until you can present me with tangible evidence in a debate you cannot prove my beliefs wrong. BUT this goes two ways: What is said or shown to me can operate in two ways even if I deem it unfactual. If I find it to be in poor standing, with no base, I can still use the failed argument to strengthen my own personal theory. It's a little outside of the box thinking but it's taking a positive outlook (something again I'm working on in life) instead of a negative tone. Second if I cannot disprove what's on the table or if I cannot disprove parts of an argument it will spur me to research what I can for continual study.

I'm starting to get a little deep and drawn out here. Simply put bashing someone on a forum or calling them crazy because of a theory is not only a show of immaturity or ego, it's also a show of ignorance plain and simple. If you believe you were created by aliens, right on, you might be right, there's evidence to support it floating out there (sumer texts etc..). If you believe you were created by God (yaweh) holla back. If you believe that Mohammed is your savior, word up son. I think they are all good starting points in taking that step to understand yourself and whats around you.

Just remember, reality (my belief) is your perception of yourself and your environment. No one's beliefs can ever be wrong since its their consciousness and not yours
I seek wisdom everyday in understanding myself and the world, and I hope you do you as well!

Rock out, try to let the posts go filled with the genre of forum users you are angry with. Understand they will begin to understand some of what I've written above (or if they choose a path elsewhere, as long as it leads to inside of them) and they will grow. All we can do is offer them opinion, research and help in any way possible.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 04:20 PM
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so do you feel better now that you made a contradicting thread? how humble of you. i could only assume, as we all do everyday, that the OP of the "i cant stand close minded people" thread struck a chord in something you dont like about yourself. maybe along the lines of lack of tolerance. how interesting that he yells black and you yell white.

of course this is all completely besides the fact that he was talking about people OFF of ats. and by the sounds of it, people that DONT so their research yet see it fit to argue with him. he quite clealy was trying to open up to you and you judged him for it. but i could see why. if he said he hated people with blonde hair, and you were blonde headed, well....exactly my point. hence the lack of humbleness

does it make you feel good? why not instead of starting an opposing thread, go to his thread and discuss it like intellectuals? is it really too much to ask?

i pray one day you will become aware of your inner dialogue. what was it...know thyself?

ill leave you with this: separation....unity



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 07:55 PM
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It is all relative.

I had a rant not long ago in the newest OMG METEORS ARE COMING TO KILL US ALL... NO PROOF, BUT CMON FLEE! about how gullible people are... and guess what.

Give it 2 or 3 minutes and there is a post attacking you personally and not addressing at all the fact that they are willing to believe in something just because it is said on the internet.

But look at me. I'm no 'skeptic'. Hell, I think I've seen Bigfoot. It is just common sense, to me anyway, to find evidence of something before believing in it.

And until these hordes of people who rush the doomsday threads (such as the meteor and Jupiter ones happening at the moment) can provide some shred of evidence that stands up to scrutiny I will continue to disbelieve them.

I was waiting on that meteor thread for someone to post about how many 'government debunkers' had shown up to steer the discussion and sure enough I got that too.

DENY IGNORANCE!

Opinion does not equal fact. Evidence equals fact. Lack of evidence equals room for speculation, but not room for far-flung absolutes.



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
The fact is, Jupiter is (1) not behind the sun right now,

Umm, yes it is..

2



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 08:36 PM
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Ah yes

But you have to admit it IS amusing at times to see people so passionate in believing things, often believing in things that contradict one another.

That Jupiter thread is typical, failure to understand basic physics and astronomy.

Just keep asking for proof



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 08:47 PM
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Why can't we all just get along?
Sorry, just had to say it...



One thing I don't understand, in the small amount of time that I have been here is: why it always seems (to me at least) that there is this seemingly great rift between the ones who call themselves ]believers], and the ones that call themselves the [all-knowers.]

[or whatever noun suits]

It's like somewhere...we all line up on each respective side of some non-existant grand canyon and try to hit the other side with rocks. It is an impressive spectacle indeed. Does anyone wonder about those that fell into that chasm of knowledge? I know I do, and I think some of us are them.
I myself prefer to climb down and steal the rocks from the other guys.... heh.



sorry for the analogy.. I couldn't help it. after all I have read today.
Great post btw,


T-






[massively edited on 09/2/16 by telemetry]
[inserting some humor, and fixing a word]
[Had to edit out skeptics and believers, as the words were not suitable]
[still can't get the wordage right, but well... you understand]



[edit on 09/2/16 by telemetry]



posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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The real bummer is that when I read a through a thread that really interests me, I WANT to see the other point of view. Unfortunately people who disagree usually just bash the other side.

This is typically true for the posts that are political in nature. I won't say which side I lean toward politically but the name-calling by all those opposing the original idea put forth in the thread is almost unbearable.

I wish we could talk to each other about these things without the unending condescension. I look for posts from the other side hoping to find facts that could make me re-think, or at the very least refine my position. Instead I wind up wading through a never ending flood of words like pity, sheeple, and naive.

The people who post things like that are always so passionate about their point of view that it's just a shame they can't research and put forth their cases factually. I really feel that could help us reach a conclusion, but it never happens.



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