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Round 1: Chissler v Anti – Government: "Education and The NWO"

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posted on Feb, 15 2009 @ 10:53 PM
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The topic for this debate is "Education is no longer designed to “Help” children. It is now a propaganda tool to indoctrinate the youth into the NWO."

Chissler will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Anti – Government will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There is a 10,000 character limit. Excess characters will be deleted prior to judging.

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The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

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posted on Feb, 16 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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Greetings to our readers and to my opponent. I'm sure over the course of the next week and some we will have a great time.

Let us begin.

 
 


"Education is no longer designed to “Help” children. It is now a propaganda tool to indoctrinate the youth into the NWO."

I will begin with a simple phrase that I fear is being lost on our youth.

Critical Thought!



I am 23 years old and a recent product of the public education system. I graduated high school in 2003, graduated with a bachelor's degree in 2006 and also graduated with a specified diploma in 2008. I have attended multiple levels of education for almost two decades.

And when it comes to critical thought, more often than not it was something that was pressed within discussion in a classroom, not a core component of any curriculum. Curriculums are predetermined for the masses and given no consideration of the individuals attending classes and what might actually be practical for their own arsenal of knowledge.

Are future laborers of our society really utilizing their own time by learning Shakespeare, algebra or who Jane Goodall was? None of it is practical to the individual. Even those that are going to use some of the aforementioned in their specified fields, they are still forced to endure hours and hours of lectures of information they will never use or probably even remember once the bell sounds to herd the mass to the next class.

It's not that anyone believes this information is useful or their time is being utilized in an effective manner. It is that they are "keeping them busy". While they waste their time with this useless information, they are kept from being asked to think for themselves.

The education system is consisted of being told what to think because someone wrote a book before ourselves.

As a free thinker, I would constantly asked educators why we were presented with conflicting view points on a daily basis and asked to believe both. I would constantly engage the educators on why we were spoon fed this material and inundated with what to believe, rather than asked to decide for ourselves.

If the education system is successful in their blatant agenda, critical thought will only exist on message boards along the lines of Above Top Secret.

The New World Order will only exist and succeed if we, the masses, stand by and do nothing. The sovereignty of individual nations is a sacred concept that few are prepared to sacrifice. Through the slowly dumbing down of each generation, the New World Order inches a step closer with each passing semester.

 


As we progress through this debate, I will clearly outline how this obvious dumbing down of our youth is a feasible approach of a current New World Order to dig their claws into the fabric of our society.

Critical thought is the foundation of any developed society. If the future is one without critical thought, where will we as a people stand?

I believe we would lie as the door mat to a totalitarian government with no expectation of accountability.

It is what we see in our past, will the same be true for our future?

I offer the floor to my opponent.



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 05:18 AM
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OPENING STATEMENT
"Education is no longer designed to “Help” children. It is now a propaganda tool to indoctrinate the youth into the NWO."

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First off I would like to thank Memory Shock for allowing me to compete in this tournament and what is my first ever ATS debate in which I have been very excited over and greatly looking forward to and also a BIG good luck to Chissler although im not sure your going to be the one that needs it
and im sure this is just going to be a great debate

Right so let’s begin im debating the con position on "Education is no longer designed to “Help” children. It is now a propaganda tool to indoctrinate the youth into the NWO." Which I have to say I would rather be arguing the pro position but I will try my best on the con position still and hopefully make some interesting points

So in my opinion the NWO is not a tool to in doctrine the youth into the NWO at all I really do believe that schools today are trying to help the youth as much as possible and to teach them skills that they will need in life after school such as

• Academic skills such as English, math, science
• Reading
• Writing

And let’s be honest here would you be on ATS in the first place if you never went to school would you have known how to read or write if you never went to school would you have made all those friends and learnt how to socialize with other individuals the way you do now nope you would not have

I am currently at school right now although I have moved into the sixth form so my high school years are still fresh in my mind as are all the subjects and what I have learnt and so on and I have to say that no I don’t think that the lessons we are given are just a way to keep us busy or are useless information in any way at all we genuinely do need them and not just for life outside of school sure it would be better if we all decided what we are going to do with our lives when we are 5 yes that would be a lot easier but in no way practical so sadly we have to still learn everything that we currently are

so what im saying is that we really do need to go to school and that no its not because we are being trained for the NWO it’s because if you want a job in life you have to work hard for it that’s what school really teaches it teaches us that if we want to get to where we want to be we have to work hard for it

In my local area alone they have just spent 23 million on a new school aswell as amazing sports facilities so we have the best opportunity to increase skills and we are also doing D of V which is learning vital skills like map reading and also OAA and so on so no I don’t think that these things are prepping the youth into the NOW but skills that we may need sounds to me like schools are being smart and not worrying about the NWO

Socratic Questions:

QUESTION 2: they want to push us into the NWO why is there a complete lack of current politics in school?

QUESTION 2: If they are pushing us into the NWO then why have schools took extreme measures to teach us sex education more and also to teach us to eat healthier?

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So in this debate I will try and prove that we need what we are being taught and that we are not being prepped for the NWO

So let’s have a great debate Chissler

So the balls in your court now make me proud hehe



posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 06:45 AM
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Rather than allowing this to drag out for any length of time throughout this debate, I will immediately look to put one issue behind us. I do not deny the importance of the education system. It is necessary. The basic reading and writing skills that are taught to us in the first few years are crucial for any individual to live an independent lifestyle. The issue lies with the indoctrination of our youth once they attain these basic reading and writing skills.

Think about some of the obvious.

Bells in school...



Why do they put bells in school? Is it really to inform us to move from our next class? We all know what time it is as any class I've ever been in had a clock. We've also had a public announcement system that could have been used. But no, they used these excruciating bells that go right through you.

They use these bells as a tool of passiveness and to create the foundation of making our society submissive. With the use of these bells, we are told what to do and when to do it from a very young age until we are in our late teen years. These bells do more than you think.

In any university setting, bells are not used. University is slightly different than grade school levels. While they are not using bells to beat us into submission, they do place their costs at a level that very few can afford.

Either way, the NWO is winning.

Promoting Apathy...



The education system is dragged out for far too many years. With the current format, our last two-three years of high school is consumed of information that we either could have received already or is absolutely unnecessary. So why drag it out?

Most of the students in these classes in their final years are so sick and tired of this futile process and being herded around by bells all day that they begin to grow apathetic towards almost everything in life. In the past those that didn't want to be in school, left and entered the work force. This is a system that worked. Our fathers and grandfathers lived successful lives and they were not spoon fed this education rubbish that we are.

As society decides on a system of meritocracy, we are inundated with this nonsense that you need a piece of paper to be worth something. And as soon as the NWO successfully built it into the minds of our society that meritocracy was a legitimate approach.. the snowball effect began and everything else simply fell into place.

No longer could people simply leave school, as that piece of paper was all too important. So rather than finding a successful career and being satisfied for the work that one can do, men and women are forced to stay in school and grow apathetic towards life. By the time they do graduate, they have been so accustomed to not caring that it will be years and years before they can break this cycle, if at all.

The Schedule...



If the education's system primary goal was to educate, then why do they have the schedule they do? It is a scientific fact that children and teenagers have difficulty waking up in the morning, and it is not due to laziness. Once their melatonin is released in the brain, teenagers can successfully fall asleep. But until then, it's not going to happen. By the time it does occur, which is later than usual, they will begin to get their sleep. Now being younger, they are going to need more sleep than mommy and daddy who are waking them up. But guess what? School starts in the morning and you need to get your ass up.

Not happening.

Some will chalk this up to laziness, but it is not. Do the research. It can be (and will be here) empirically proven that teenagers are much more capable of retaining information later in the morning and early afternoon than they are at first thing in the morning.

But teachers who have "proven their worth" in the education system want to work ideal hours, so the children will have to suck it up.

Why do they take extended breaks throughout the years?

How is it that a system who's primary goal is to educate allows for these ridiculously extended breaks? Believe me, as a student of this system... I loved them.

But coming back after a holiday break or summer vacation, I did not remember a damn thing about what I had previously learned. Nor did my classmates.

So while these breaks were nice, from an educational standpoint they make absolutely no sense.

All of this undermines the notion that the education's system primary goal is to educate. And if it is to not educate, than what is it?

I've touched on the truth above and will continue to do so throughout this debate.

  • Induce passivity

    How? Again, through the use of these bells on a daily basis. The masses are herded from class to class without any verbal exchange, as they know what that bell means. Does anyone ever stand up and simply ask what that bell means and why it triggers this universal response? No, if they did they would be a "trouble maker". No critical thought, just being herded because it was what they were told to do.

  • Early morning hours

    Empirically proven that students are not going to retain information this early. Yet they spoon feed this material anyways. Why? Because these are the hours they want and it is another attempt to slowly create this passiveness and apathy within the students that the power above will come to cherish in years down the road.

  • Vacations?

    They send the children off for weeks at a time throughout the school year. Spring break, summer vacation and the holiday break are all very extended points of the year where we don't have to go to school. From an education point, what purpose does this serve? Mommy and daddy who have to work all year round are now in a fit trying to find somewhere for their child to be through the day. Latchkey children anyone? Rather than being alone for an hour or two through the week, they have the summer to run amuk for eight hours a day. It doesn't benefit the parents, it's not benefiting the children as they aren't going to remember a damn thing.. so who is it benefiting?

     


    Socratic Questions



    I will now respond to my opponent's two Socratic questions.

    QUESTION 2: they want to push us into the NWO why is there a complete lack of current politics in school?

    I'm not convinced their is a complete lack of politics in the education system. As a student I remember all too well being taught the Caste systems and previous Feudalistic societies.

    QUESTION 2: If they are pushing us into the NWO then why have schools took extreme measures to teach us sex education more and also to teach us to eat healthier?

    That's pretty simple. Whether it is the NWO or the Purple Monkey People Eaters, gonorrhea and chlamydia do not help anybody or anything. NWO or not, nobody needs a sexually transmitted disease. And as for eating healthier, that is another simple answer. The effort that goes into indoctrinating each generation, they obviously would like to see that investment last as long as it can. Through eating healthy and living a healthy lifestyle, we can live longer and thus continue to populate the earth with an indoctrinated race. As new generations come along, they need to start all over again.

    They want us to live long, just not informed.

     
     



  • posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 04:45 PM
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    ATTENTION EVERYONE

    From the Rules clearly stated at the beginning of every debate:

    Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.


    The Debate Forum, Fighters and FCP have always held the highest standards of fairness and honesty. We do this by always, ALWAYS being open and transparent in every debate and every Mod action on ever post.

    This; by it's very nature, prohibits any editing by the Fighter himself.

    This entire post was removed due to an edit. The debate will continue, but let this serve as notice.

    Any further infractions of this nature, by any fighter, will result in a forfeit of the debate immediately.

    Thank you

    Semper

    [edit on 2/18/2009 by semperfortis]



    posted on Feb, 17 2009 @ 06:44 PM
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    Just on a side-note, if you have any edits that are required, contact semperfortis or The Vagabond to do so. The rules state clearly against it and I'd hate to see something silly get in the way of a great debate.

    We'll call mulligan on this one.


     
     


    I'll begin with a quick response to my opponent's most recent reply and then move forward with my position that our current education system is a covert operation to indoctrinate our youth into the NWO.

    One word summarizes my opponent's recent reply.

    Doubt

    .

    My opponent doubts that the notions I put forth are feasible. With regards to the true intent of the bells, the schedule, curriculum and the promoting of apathy; my opponent doubts that this is the case. If someone of an opposing view point merely doubts my position, then I rest easy knowing that with the words I speak comes merit.

    Bells are not a necessity. They are a choice. A thought-out choice. These could easily be replaced with a simple verbal announcement to inform of the pending transition. The onus does not have to rest on the educator to inform the students to move onto their next lecture. Other avenues could be explored. However, the choice was made to select bells. And these bells are symbolic.

    In any totalitarian state, which the education system is, symbols were used to control the masses. Albeit past or present, the emphasis on these symbols were overt. In a totalitarian state under a new world order, such symbols would be crucial in the daily control of the public. And because we all know it is extremely difficult to teach an old dog new tricks, it is essential that these principles of control be instilled from a young age. And rather than invading each home, where else better than the education system? Invade schools and your reach will extend far beyond the surface of society. By instilling these basic measures of control at a young age we are taught to listen and obey. Even as adults this is the case, only the symbols may differ.

    What is the basis for a conspiracy theory?



    Critical thought.

    As stated in my opening reply, critical thought is being pushed to the wayside. Rarely is such a concept promoted in a school curriculum. This truth is obvious as so many conspiracy theories are mocked in the general public and conspiracy theorists are seen as loons. Yet another measure by a totalitarian state to control the masses.

    Undermine those who will think for themselves.

    In 19 years of being enrolled in an educational facility, never once did I sit and hear of a theory that went against the status quo. Having attended school for almost 8 years after September 11th, 2001, never once did I hear of any theory against the official story of what was released by the commission report. I attended three separate levels of education through these years and not once did an educator ask anyone of a thought or opinion on this major topic that may have went against the official story. We were not to think for ourselves. We were to accept this story as is and move on blindly trusting our government.

    This is the system at work.

    What separates us...



    The old adage of what separates humans from animals is a popular one. Spoken language, our mobile and flexible appendages, etc. All popular responses. All vital to our way of life. However, what separates us from the animals is our ability to process critical thought.

    If we were to lose our ability to think critically, however still share in verbal exchange, we would be walking, talking stiffs. We would be the society personified in countless films where totalitarian regimes control society. The critical thinkers in these films are the outsiders. It is through critical thought that we keep our government accountable. And through critical thought, we will be able to fend off the wrath of a New World Order.

    So if critical thought is so obviously essential to our way of life, why is so noticeably absent from any school curriculum?

    I've heard of specific schools allowing children to apply for small aspects of critical thought within their curriculum, but why so minimized, restricted and almost perceived as an "extra"? Shouldn't it be the foundation? Should it not be the norm?

    In my opinion, it should. But it is not which begs the question of the the true intent of the system.

     
     


    Life under a New World Order...





    "A One World Government and one-unit monetary system, under permanent non-elected hereditary oligarchists who self-select from among their numbers in the form of a feudal system as it was in the Middle Ages. In this One World entity, population will be limited by restrictions on the number of children per family, diseases, wars, famines, until 1 billion people who are useful to the ruling class, in areas which will be strictly and clearly defined, remain as the total world population.

    There will be no middle class, only rulers and the servants. All laws will be uniform under a legal system of world courts practicing the same unified code of laws, backed up by a One World Government police force and a One World unified military to enforce laws in all former countries where no national boundaries shall exist. The system will be on the basis of a welfare state; those who are obedient and subservient to the One World Government will be rewarded with the means to live; those who are rebellious will simple be starved to death or be declared outlaws, thus a target for anyone who wishes to kill them. Privately owned firearms or weapons of any kind will be prohibited."

    1


    Taking the time to read that and consider the true ramifications of such a system, is that something that would carry any water under critical thought? The obvious truth to such a system would be that it benefits the few and punishes the masses, so why would the masses accept it? Well they would accept it if they didn't know any better. And it is through the education system that future generations will not know any better and will be more susceptible to falling victim to such a regime.

    Allow me to quote a line here.



    We have before us the opportunity to forge for ourselves and for future generations a new world order -- a world where the rule of law, not the law of the jungle, governs the conduct of nations. When we are successful -- and we will be -- we have a real chance at this new world order, an order in which a credible United Nations can use its peacekeeping role to fulfill the promise and vision of the U.N.'s founders.

    2


    As many of you know, the man who spoke these words was none other than the 41st President of the United States, George H.W. Bush.

    We can close our eyes and try to convince ourselves that much of what I've had to say here is merely hogwash and that those who are in power are trustworthy. But that is buying into the gimmicks that they want. They want us to blindly trust and support, they don't want us to think for ourselves. I support this notion with the very fact that the education system doesn't teach you to think for yourself.

     


    Socratic Questions...



    I will now pose my Socratic questions to my opponent.

    1) Do you believe the New World Order exists?
    2) Do you believe it is possible than the education system has an ulterior motif?
    3) Do you feel that some of your time in school is being wasted?
    4) What profession do you intend to seek in the future?
    5) Do you believe it would be in your best interest to spend more of your time on studies on the field(s) that are of more interest to you?

     


    The floor is yours.



    posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 02:32 PM
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    I understand the reasons for the post removed but just for clarification I HAVE NOT edited anything that I wrote. I had made a slight mistake when making the titles bold and it ended up making half the debate in bold and half in normal just so you know I wasn’t trying in any way to achieve an unfair advantage or anything like that. I thank semperfortis still for the great job he is doing and the punishment which I deserved. I should have waited for him to come online. And this is a mistake which I HAVE learned from


    Also I really do have to apologize here to Chissler because of my mistake and hopefully we can put that behind us and continue and make this a great debate.

    Thank you

    Yes I do have doubts over what you have said mainly these comments:

    Is it really to inform us to move from our next class?


    Yes what would you rather have in place that is as practical as a school bell? Also you’re missing out the fact that kids won’t always have a watch with them or always be able to get access to the time. So a school bell is not just necessary it’s absolutely a necessity.


    We all know what time it is as any class I've ever been in had a clock.


    Is not correct not every class has a clock in it a lot of the times we have to rely on a teacher to be smart enough to bring a watch. Also not every child has access to the time so therefore won’t know it all the time.

    So yes I absolutely have doubt but, I mainly with what I think you have said that is wrong.


    Bells are not a necessity. They are a choice. A thought-out choice. These could easily be replaced with a simple verbal announcement to inform of the pending transition. The onus does not have to rest on the educator to inform the students to move onto their next lecture. Other avenues could be explored. However, the choice was made to select bells. And these bells are symbolic.


    Now yes I agree that yes they could very easily use a “verbal announcement” to inform us. Im debating whether they should could use the school bell which is far easier and more practical because for the verbal announcement you would need someone to do it every day and exactly on time.

    Surely its far better to take out the human error factor and use an automated school bell which runs exactly on time each and every day also it would free some time in which to get more work done again another argument in favour of using the school bell.

    It isn’t being used to create some sort of submissiveness towards them they are being used because they are the best choice.
    I mean would you rather a hand bell or a school bell I know I would rather the school bell.


    In any totalitarian state, which the education system is, symbols were used to control the masses. Albeit past or present, the emphasis on these symbols were overt. In a totalitarian state under a new world order, such symbols would be crucial in the daily control of the public.


    Again I highly disagree with you there just because we use a school bell in school it doesn’t mean that in the future it will be use against us as a way to control the public it’s just not plausible or probable in any way.


    By instilling these basic measures of control at a young age we are taught to listen and obey. Even as adults this is the case, only the symbols may differ.


    There isn’t anything wrong with teaching kids to listen and obey just because they do that it doesn’t mean that there is a sinister plot behind it there is nothing wrong with teaching kids (from a young age) to behave.

    No sinister plot there just more smarts from the education system they are doing society a great help there.


    it is extremely difficult to teach an old dog new tricks


    Well that’s not really true is it..


    A study led by the Rotman Research Institute at Baycrest Centre for Geriatric Care in Toronto has found that older adults can perform just as well as young adults on visual, short-term memory tests. What's remarkable, however, is that older adults use different areas of the brain than younger people.


    www.sciencedaily.com...


    Having attended school for almost 8 years after September 11th, 2001, never once did I hear of any theory against the official story of what was released by the commission report.


    Mainly because it’s inappropriate to talk about that in school a lot of innocent lives were lost and it’s a pretty touchy subject for most and you’re not exactly at school to learn about what happened on that day you are the school to learn about what effects you in society or to learn valuable skills to be used in society.


    So if critical thought is so obviously essential to our way of life, why is so noticeably absent from any school curriculum?


    Just because we don’t have a specific lesson in critical thinking it doesn’t mean we are not learning it.

    Look at this link it has a list of things that teachers can do to encourage critical thinking and most of them happen in every lesson of every day without fail.

    www.criticalthinking.org...



    A One World Government and one-unit monetary system, under permanent non-elected hereditary oligarchists who self-select from among their numbers in the form of a feudal system as it was in the Middle Ages. In this One World entity, population will be limited by restrictions on the number of children per family, diseases, wars, famines, until 1 billion people who are useful to the ruling class, in areas which will be strictly and clearly defined, remain as the total world population.

    There will be no middle class, only rulers and the servants. All laws will be uniform under a legal system of world courts practicing the same unified code of laws, backed up by a One World Government police force and a One World unified military to enforce laws in all former countries where no national boundaries shall exist. The system will be on the basis of a welfare state; those who are obedient and subservient to the One World Government will be rewarded with the means to live; those who are rebellious will simple be starved to death or be declared outlaws, thus a target for anyone who wishes to kill them. Privately owned firearms or weapons of any kind will be prohibited.


    Now im fairly glad you have done all the work and brought this to our attention before I did because sure there are some holes In it I can’t deny that but In the long run it's for the better hood of mankind.

    I mean I am myself Anti – Government but a world government would solve a hell of a lot of earth’s global crime and various other annoyances that we encounter every day.

    Just imagine it finally stupid wars will be gone forever, Crime will surely be down because all over the world there will be finally unison on what should be done and what should be done correctly, Economy would be far better because there would be just one worldwide currency.

    Sadly population will go down but it is all for the better hood of mankind I mean come on isn’t what’s best for the species what comes first isn’t what happens in the long run far better than the short run.

    You say we would accept the NWO because of what happens In our education system e.g. With the school bell and the schedule and so on but I really do ask you exactly how the school bell will be used from this NWO or even the schedule and so on.

    Also you say that this system will benefit the few and punish the masses and sadly that is a common response to this. The truth is that’s a myth and that this is to benefit everyone in time not just a lucky few or the richest.

    Now I see a massive fault there you have got something that none other than George Bush has said now this is a huge mistake considering the man is a blithering idiot but I shall continue...

    GEORGE BUSH IS A MASSIVE FOOL

    Had to be said anyway read carefully what he had said there?


    an order in which a credible United Nations can use its peacekeeping role to fulfil the promise and vision of the U.N.'s founders.


    The NWO is not there to ultimately control us they are in existence for our benefit and to further mankind as much as possible.

    Socratic Questions...

    1)Do you believe the New World Order exists?

    Yes I do believe that the NWO exists but I believe that they aren’t here to harm or kill us all they are here to achieve a peace state around the world and to move up a level in human development.

    2)Do you believe it is possible than the education system has an ulterior motif?

    No I don’t I truly believe that the education system as a whole was put I place to educate and help us reach our own individual potentials.

    3)Do you feel that some of your time in school is being wasted?

    Of course some of the tie is wasted just like it is in just about every single job that you have worked in or workplace that you have visited it’s not just schools.

    4)What profession do you intend to seek in the future?

    Firefighter

    5)Do you believe it would be in your best interest to spend more of your time on studies on the field(s) that are of more interest to you?

    Of course and that’s what im doing at school right now right all I can give you here are experiences that I have gone through at my school and I can’t really speak for a school that I have not been so.

    In my school we spent most of our school years learning vital information like for example maths, English and science you know the important main stuff that we should learn then after my exams.

    I have been learning about public services and first aid specific skills that I will need since I am progressing into a career in the fire service.


    Thank You

    Chissler …



    posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 07:19 PM
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    I'll begin my rebuttal with a brief response to my opponent's above post and then further elaborate on how the current education system is a covert operation to indoctrinate our youth into the NWO.

     
     


    I'll begin by thanking my opponent for telling our readers how wonderful and utopian-like a life under the New World Order would be. I acknowledge that my opponent's position is not necessarily "anti-NWO", however I appreciate that he takes the time to inform our readers that it would seem beneficial to live under such a regime.

    With regards to the topic of "bells" in school, I would like to simply comment that my intent on alerting this concept of the education system is to emphasize the symbolism that they come with. I'm not interested in debating the semantics of whether or not it is the most efficient tool of transitioning the students, I'm merely looking to emphasize the symbolic nature of the tool.

    While my opponent has made an effort to off-set the practical sense of the bells, he fails to touch on the symbolic nature of the sounding bell.


    Originally posted by Anti - Government
    There isn’t anything wrong with teaching kids to listen and obey just because they do that it doesn’t mean that there is a sinister plot behind it there is nothing wrong with teaching kids (from a young age) to behave.


    Why?

    Why should they listen and obey?

    I oppose any notion that suggests the teacher is correct on the basis that they are the educator. Teachers isn't even a term that should be used for the most part. They are individuals who get paid to stand in front of a classroom and regurgitate what someone else has already said. They are not teaching anything. They are merely echoing the thoughts of someone who came before them. The few teachers that are out there are the facilitators of discussion that challenge students and promote critical thought.

    This notion that my opponent alludes to is the theme of the New World Order. Which is that we should listen and obey to individuals who come with a title. Screw titles. Respect is earned. Students should be courteous as everyone is entitled to courtesy. However, students should not obey every thought of an educator because they are an educator. They should be taught to challenge the viewpoints of all, including their teachers. Not only will this benefit the class, it will hold teachers accountable and push them to be better. No more of this reading the chapter the night before the students did and professing to be the "know all" on the topic.

    I've met my fair share of these teachers that can not answer a question outside of what was outlined in the chapter.


    Originally posted by Anti - Government
    Mainly because it’s inappropriate to talk about that in school a lot of innocent lives were lost and it’s a pretty touchy subject for most and you’re not exactly at school to learn about what happened on that day you are the school to learn about what effects you in society or to learn valuable skills to be used in society.


    This was in response to discussion surrounding 9/11.

    I'm beginning to question where or not my opponent is a tool of the New World Order.

    He asserts that because it is a sensitive subject where innocent lives were lost, we shouldn't talk about it. If that isn't the NWO in a short sentence, I don't know what is. Don't look, don't ask, don't think.. just close and swallow. No thank you!

    Sensitive subject or not, the victims of this tragedy are owed by those of us surviving the day to ensure accountability to those guilty. Ignoring it because it is "sensitive" is allowing those victims to die in vain.


    Originally posted by Anti - Government
    Just because we don’t have a specific lesson in critical thinking it doesn’t mean we are not learning it.


    Really? How?

    I can't learn to swim without getting in the water. I couldn't learn to drive a bike without getting on one. And I couldn't learn to drive a car without getting behind the wheel. So please, elaborate on how our future generations are going to learn critical thought without practicing it.

    I'm very curious.

     
     


    I will now examine the answers to the Socratic questions I previously posed.



    1)Do you believe the New World Order exists?

    Yes I do believe that the NWO exists but I believe that they aren’t here to harm or kill us all they are here to achieve a peace state around the world and to move up a level in human development.


    So we have established for the sake of this debate that the NWO does exist.

    My opponent asserts that the intent of the NWO is of a positive nature. Whether it is a positive nature or not, the topic of our debate is whether or not they are indoctrinating our youth. It does not imply whether the intentions are good or bad. I believe that they do exist, I believe they are indoctrinating our youth and I also believe their intentions are bad. My opponent agrees that they do exist. He doesn't seem to agree that they are indoctrinating our youth, but does believe that whatever they are doing.. their intentions are good. Interesting.



    2)Do you believe it is possible than the education system has an ulterior motif?

    No I don’t I truly believe that the education system as a whole was put I place to educate and help us reach our own individual potentials.


    Interesting. I will respond to this question with a Socratic question.



    3)Do you feel that some of your time in school is being wasted?

    Of course some of the tie is wasted just like it is in just about every single job that you have worked in or workplace that you have visited it’s not just schools.


    If their goal is to have every individual reach their potential, why would they waste your time?



    4)What profession do you intend to seek in the future?

    Firefighter


    Very honorable. Good for you and best of luck.

     
     


    I'll pose my Socratic questions.

    1) How can a student learn to think critically if they are not taught it?

    I'll post this before posing my second question.



    Research tells us that a large majority of gifted and talented students spend most of their day in regular classroom settings (Cox, Daniel, & Boston, 1985). 2


    2) If you believe the education system is to have each individual reach their own true potential, why are classes taught at a pace of the slowest child and gifted children left bored?
    3) You believe the NWO exists and you believe their intentions are positive. Given that, would you state that it would be beneficial for the NWO to become involved in the current education system?
    4) Who do you believe is in charge of the NWO?
    5) Why do you oppose the sovereignty of individual nations?

     
     


    The floor is yours, my friend.




    posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 12:34 PM
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    I would like to simply comment that my intent on alerting this concept of the education system is to emphasize the symbolism that they come with. I'm not interested in debating the semantics of whether or not it is the most efficient tool of transitioning the students, I'm merely looking to emphasize the symbolic nature of the tool.

    While my opponent has made an effort to off-set the practical sense of the bells, he fails to touch on the symbolic nature of the sounding bell.


    But do you understand that the reason we use a school bell isn’t because it’s going to be used as a tool the reason that it is being used is because it’s practical and it’s the obvious choice. You say you are looking at the symbolic nature of the school bell but the only reason that you are doing this is because you have to do. You have to do it because it is being used and it all goes back to why it’s being used and that’s because it’s practical and the only choice when discussing this matter.

    And I ask you how is the school bell symbolic what does it mean why/how could it specifically be used against us? Please answer this I the Socratic question at the bottom of the page thanks.


    Why should they listen and obey?


    Why shouldn’t they learn to listen and behave we as people function far better if we take our time and relax instead of being all hyped up and running around. We would learn a lot that way and after we leave school we would function a lot better in today’s society.

    Think about if you go to a job interview and they see 2 people one of which is calm and does the interview professionally. Then you have someone who is running around messing with everything and is totally unprofessional in the way he handles things, even if he has a better C.V the calm and professional wins every time.


    Teachers isn't even a term that should be used for the most part. They are individuals who get paid to stand in front of a classroom and regurgitate what someone else has already said. They are not teaching anything.


    And yes teachers are there to teach us and just because they didn’t figure out what they are teaching us first it doesn’t mean they should be faulted because of that they do a very tough job and should be credited for it.

    So teachers in general teach us nothing you say well I can happily tell you I have learnt a hell of a lot from my teachers as well as the rest of my pupils also.


    They are merely echoing the thoughts of someone who came before them.


    Sure just because they are repeating what someone has found out or has said before them doesn’t mean they are failing as teachers it just means that they are trying to teach us what they themselves have been taught. Nothing wrong with that.


    This notion that my opponent alludes to is the theme of the New World Order. Which is that we should listen and obey to individuals who come with a title. Screw titles. Respect is earned. Students should be courteous as everyone is entitled to courtesy. However, students should not obey every thought of an educator because they are an educator. They should be taught to challenge the viewpoints of all, including their teachers. Not only will this benefit the class, it will hold teachers accountable and push them to be better. No more of this reading the chapter the night before the students did and professing to be the "know all" on the topic.


    I have already stated in a recent post that we are encouraged to challenge what we are being told we certainly do I my school anyway.

    I should direct you to the link I gave in my recent post it shows what teachers should do In every lesson of every day and each of them happens In mine every single day

    www.criticalthinking.org...


    This was in response to discussion surrounding 9/11.

    I'm beginning to question where or not my opponent is a tool of the New World Order.

    He asserts that because it is a sensitive subject where innocent lives were lost, we shouldn't talk about it. If that isn't the NWO in a short sentence, I don't know what is. Don't look, don't ask, don't think.. just close and swallow. No thank you!


    No you have it all wrong there what I said was “you’re not exactly at school to learn about what happened on that day you are the school to learn about what effects you in society or to learn valuable skills to be used in society.” So it’s not the time nor the place to talk about what happened im not saying they absolutely shouldn’t talk about that day because we should but they should talk about and discuss the set lesson. And leave everything else out for another and more appropriate time.

    Also if it helps I am not a NWO tool of any kind
    and what is quite funny is every time you hear someone defending the true nature of the NWO you always get the same common response back “Oh You must be a part of it then” so no I am not a “tool of the NWO” I am merely stating that their intentions are not as bad as everyone thinks they are there to help and push mankind forward.


    Really? How?

    I can't learn to swim without getting in the water. I couldn't learn to drive a bike without getting on one. And I couldn't learn to drive a car without getting behind the wheel. So please, elaborate on how our future generations are going to learn critical thought without practicing it.

    I'm very curious.


    Again you have misunderstood I never said that they wasn’t practicing it you didn’t read everything that I said because if you did you would have read this aswell.

    “Look at this link it has a list of things that teachers can do to encourage critical thinking and most of them happen in every lesson of every day without fail”

    www.criticalthinking.org...

    it’s a list of what happens in every lesson of every day or it certainly happens In every lesson I have ever been in without fail.

    So that’s how they learn it without specifically having a lesson on the subject.

    Thank you.

    Response to Socratic Questions
    SQ1. How can a student learn to think critically if they are not taught it?

    I'll post this before posing my second question.



    Research tells us that a large majority of gifted and talented students spend most of their day in regular classroom setting


    Because they are taught it which I already stated in this post and in the previous one.

    www.criticalthinking.org...

    now you give us an external source which states that most gifted children just sit in class and aren’t allowed to reach their individual potential. Here’s a list of people who are extremely gifted but no one thought it at all so who can say who is gifted and who isn’t.

    1.Einstein was four years old before he could speak and seven before he could read.
    2.Isaac Newton did poorly in grade school.
    3.When Thomas Edison was a boy, his teachers told him he was too stupid to learn anything.
    4.F.W.Woolworth got a job in a dry goods store when he was 21. But his employers would not let him wait on a customer because he "Didn't have enough sense."
    5.A newspaper editor fired Walt Disney because he had "No good ideas."
    6.Caruso's music teacher told him. "You can't sing, you have no voice at all."
    7.Verner Von Braun flunked 9th grade algebra.
    8.Admiral Richard E. Byrd had been retired from the navy, as, "Unfit for service" Until he flew over both poles.
    9.Louis Pasteur was rated as mediocre in chemistry when he attended the Royal College.
    10.Winston Churchill failed the sixth grade.
    www.ri.net...
    so in my opinion you can’t label a child gifted because it’s not fair you don’t know if they are or if there not just look at the list above Einstein, Newton, and Edison all normal or below average children and look at what they actually turned out to be.

    SQ2: If you believe the education system is to have each individual reach their own true potential, why are classes taught at a pace of the slowest child and gifted children left bored?

    Would you prefer they started from the smartest kids and then leave the slower and weaker academically children behind the truth is it far better and easier to start with the weaker ones first look at it this way

    Imagine you’re in a classroom that is going to be learning advanced subjects even the weaker children who won’t be able to keep up.

    Now imagine you’re In a classroom where everyone is learning the weaker stuff which is still beneficial towards the stronger kinds there is nothing wrong with going back and reading what you have already learned it’s a strong technique in keeping that information in your brain.

    Which one is most beneficial?

    SQ:3You believe the NWO exists and you believe their intentions are positive. Given that, would you state that it would be beneficial for the NWO to become involved in the current education system?

    Yes it would be beneficial but just because it may be slightly beneficial doesn’t mean it has happened I mean I think it’s fairly obvious the true intentions of the education system and it isn’t nothing to do with the NWO

    SQ:4Who do you believe is in charge of the NWO?

    The simple answer can sometimes be the best… I don’t know

    SQ:5Why do you oppose the sovereignty of individual nations?

    This is a fairly easy one to answer the reason I oppose them is because of the obvious …Conflict there is always going to be conflict under individual nations that’s a definite truth also it would be far better if we achieved a world under one banner so to speak so that we are all equals.

    Socratic Questions:
    SQ: 1 how is the school bell symbolic? And what does it mean?
    SQ2: How could it specifically be used?

    Chissler...



    posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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    I'm disappointed to see this come to an end. My opponent has been a worthy adversary and the topic we've been assigned has been one that has stimulated a lot of thought. I've really enjoyed this.

    So thank you to one and all.

     
     


    Allow me to begin my closing statement with another brief response to my opponent's previous rebuttal and then I'll offer a thorough summation of what I've presented.


    Originally posted by Anti - Government
    Think about if you go to a job interview and they see 2 people one of which is calm and does the interview professionally. Then you have someone who is running around messing with everything and is totally unprofessional in the way he handles things, even if he has a better C.V the calm and professional wins every time.


    While I appreciate the backdrop that you've created for the story, it completely misrepresents the point I was making.

    I've openly stated that children should not be obedient based on titles. However, what I'm proposing does not equate to social deviance. The obedience that I oppose is academic and intellectual obedience. Students conceding that the teacher is right when they don't believe it, or not standing up for what they think is right because they are the student. This is what my opponent supports and what I oppose, not social deviance or delinquency.

    I posed the following as a Socratic question.

    SQ2: If you believe the education system is to have each individual reach their own true potential, why are classes taught at a pace of the slowest child and gifted children left bored?

    This was my opponent's response.



    Would you prefer they started from the smartest kids and then leave the slower and weaker academically children behind the truth is it far better and easier to start with the weaker ones first look at it this way


    I'm not disagreeing with you. But the point here isn't what is more beneficial. The point here is that children ARE NOT reaching their full potential. The current educational format is not aiming at ensuring that each individual student reaches their full potential because if they were, the education system would be much more individualized.

    By your own admission, either way children are being left out.

    So you are contradicting yourself with your own words with what the education system is accomplishing.

    I will now answer the Socratic questions posed by my opponent.

     
     


    SQ: 1 how is the school bell symbolic? And what does it mean?

    Whether the NWO is indoctrinating our youth or not, this is one point you're not letting up on.


    The bell is symbolic in many ways. The sound of the bell ringing means what? What does it mean? It means nothing. It is merely the sound of a chime. Yet through our lives we have attached to ringing of this bell as a symbol of obedience. When the bell chimes, you go to where you are supposed to go. We don't ask why, we just do. If you took a group of children who never used a bell in school before and then began to use one, they would look around aimlessly unsure of what that noise was. However, we have attached and understanding of what it means. And this covert message that we never question is the specific type of measures that the NWO is, can and will implement to control our people.

    SQ2: How could it specifically be used?

    From an early age and on a daily basis. With repetition the desired reaction becomes second nature and those displaying the behavior never realize what exactly it is they are doing.

     
     


    Throughout this debate I've proposed several theories that supports the notion that our education system is currently a system of indoctrinating our youth into the NWO. A few aspects that I've touched on...

  • The use of bells in the schools.
  • The current schedule and how it benefits everyone but the students.
  • Unnecessary prolonged vacations that interferes with the learning process.
  • The consistent theme throughout all of this that the obvious needs of the students are secondary to that of the administration and education.
  • My opponent has agreed that the NWO indoctrinating our youth through the education system makes perfect sense.
  • How the process is dragged out to promote apathy within our youth.
  • And most importantly, how critical thought is barely a footnote in the current education system.

    All of this creates a precise formula whereas the NWO can begin to control a society that does not know any better.

    I would like to take this time to share a quote with my opponent and our readers.

    Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world.

    -Nelson Mandela

     
     


    Think about it, if the most powerful entity on our planet is going to take control of our population, they will first begin with the most powerful weapon. The education system.

    It has been almost 20 years since the President of the United States began to drop the term, "New World Order". In those 20 years, the ball has most definitely began to roll. And the first step in this process being the infiltration of the education system, it is clear that the infiltration is complete.

    Thank you.



  • posted on Feb, 19 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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    Closing debate

    Firstly I would really like to thank Chissler for this debate because I had a serious amount of fun doing it. I am also truly gutted to see it end because I think we could just keep arguing all day and night with this one.


    So thanks a lot Chissler you have been such a great opponent and I really grateful that I’ve had the chance to debate you in this tournament.

     



    While I appreciate the backdrop that you've created for the story, it completely misrepresents the point I was making.



    The obedience that I oppose is academic and intellectual obedience. Students conceding that the teacher is right when they don't believe it, or not standing up for what they think is right because they are the student.


    I do see what you are getting at and really you are correct 100% they would not question what the teacher is saying. Of course they wouldn’t because they don’t know themselves we as people are sadly like that even before school, even people who never went to school.

    I mean like you stated in your previous post if you go to a swimming lesson without ever swam before are you really going to ignore what you are being told by the instructor. No you’re not because you don’t know any better.

    If they tell you to do something you are definitely going to do it the way they say but for all you know they could be teaching you it completely the wrong way. You just don’t know but you do it anyway.

    Or maybe if you go to a driving lesson its all the same because you don’t know it yourself and whether it be a teacher or an instructor it doesn’t matter because they know it and you don’t. Even if you did know it you would still always listen to what they have to say because 9/10 they are right and they know a hell of lot more than you and deep down you know that.

    Not because it’s been instilled In you by some organisation but because it’s the smart thing to do and the best thing to do because you know that they can help you in some way so you will always accept their help.


    I'm not disagreeing with you. But the point here isn't what is more beneficial. The point here is that children ARE NOT reaching their full potential. The current educational format is not aiming at ensuring that each individual student reaches their full potential because if they were, the education system would be much more individualized.

    By your own admission, either way children are being left out.


    No I fully understand that the education system is in no way perfect but if you could name me any work place that is entirely beneficial for each and every single employee then I would seriously love to hear it.

    I do however believe that the education system was designed for and is still trying to achieve what’s best for the pupils so they can all reach their highest potential.

    Although they have started to tackle the problem in my school they have a new system which places the smartest or the highest achieving children in a class and then the next bunch and so on to me this sounds like they are trying their best in achieving the highest potential for each and every pupil and no children are being left out like you say they are.

    Things are being fixed so for now the education system is In no way perfect I am not denying that but they are vastly improving all the time because what’s best for the pupil is what matters.
    They are the future and the education system is preparing them the best they can.

    So us Humans aren’t as completely useless as we look we are clearly smart enough to know that the education system is where we need to develop more and more like we have been doing increasingly over these last few years and that children need to be prepared for the future like we have also been doing so clearly.

     


    I thank you Chissler a more than worthy opponent who has given me a few headaches over the past few days.


    And I look forward to any more encounters that may be in store for us on this fantastic site.

    Peace



    posted on Mar, 7 2009 @ 12:10 AM
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    We have a Winner!!!!!


    This turned out to be a tough debate to judge, as both opponents made strong points throughout. However, I must give the win to Chissler.

    Chissler starts out the gate strong, but it would have been nice if he had included a reference to the study regarding children and sleep deprivation. Makes interesting argument linking school bells to controlled behavior. In the end he sticks to his guns and carries his line of thought through the end of the debate.

    Anti-Government does a good job raising doubt about Chissler’s line of logic regarding the use of school bells as the basis of behavior modification, as well as smooth out his opinion regarding the public education system. Unfortunately, his loss of a round hurt his chances of fully rounding out his argument to its fullest extent. In the end he really didn’t have the opportunity to thoroughly shake Chissler’s core line of reasoning.

    Over all, this was a good debate.



    Round 1: Chissler v Anti – Government: "Education and The NWO"
    Opening goes to Chissler..

    I liked the way Chissler led the opening salvo in the direct that he did. I felt his opening was very thought provoking and still never left the reader with any doubt as to his direction.

    Anti-Government instead left one wondering if he was going to debate the topic, or whether or not we should drop out of school.

    Replies and closing:
    The first impression one gets when reading he replies in this debate is that Anti-Government was playing catch up. And not due to the missed post.

    Chissler moved very nicely from the opening and into the replies, never straying off course and leading the debate exactly in the direction he chose. This is hard to combat.

    The distraction Chissler used in the “Bell” issue was nothing short of genius.

    Anti-Government spent almost his entire debate just answering Chissler’s post and Socratic Questions and never really was able to “put his point of view” on the table.

    While I would give the nod of the closing to Anti-Government, all the replies go to Chissler as does the debate quite handily.

    This is a perfect example of the tactic in a debate of taking control. I did not do a character count, but if Anti-Government had the space, it would have been a much closer battle had he used it to better formulate his stance and not so much time simply refuting Chissler’s. All through this debate I was never really able to grasp Anti-Government’s stance.

    However I must say that for a new debater to face such an experienced opponent as Chissler, Anti-Government’s performance was/is to be applauded.

    Win to Chissler


    Chissler is the winner and will advance...

    Congratulations to both fighters

    Semper



    posted on Mar, 7 2009 @ 03:31 AM
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    Congratulations to Chissler for a well deserved win.


    Thank Semper for posting the winner.


    And i had so much fun debating this topic and i Thank all the judges that took the time to go through our debate and decide a winner.


    Hopefully many more debates are in order in the near future aswell.
    .


    [edit on 7/3/2009 by Anti - Government]



    posted on Mar, 7 2009 @ 06:55 AM
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    AG, this really was a great debate. As you gain more experience in the forum, you will be one to watch. Thank you for a great debate and a lot of fun.







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