Continental Crash 3407 - A Conspiracy? - 9/11 Widow - met w/ Obama Dead onboard

Originally posted by questioningall


that is interesting, I also find it very interesting, that they have moved all the people out that live in the area.

Maybe the houses that are right next to the crash, the people could be moved, but lots of people and they are not allowing them back in? Why such a wide perimeter? They have already searched the area for debris.

I believe its only 12 houses. I'll ask

TheWelder

Originally posted by Whisper67
The plane crashed at 10:20pm and there was no reporting until Midnight when CNN cut into a replay of Larry King and CNN International broke in. Fox and MSNBC followed about 10 minutes later. Even then, there was no local affiliate live on the scene for an additional two hours.

If what you say is true(and I am not denying it) then it would indeed be very suspicious, as these stations are constantly monitoring the local emergency traffic. Here in San Diego we recently had an F/A-18 go down over the city and media reports started coming in within 15 minutes(though that was in the daytime). Anyway this would probably have more bite if some of you local posters could confirm it.

Also, does anybody know if the local cell-phone network crashed about the same time? That tends to happen around these suspicious events, and if true would be another red flag.

I wonder what skeptics have to say about this.

"Oh it just was coincidence that she was on that flight"

lolol.

reply to post by lawlb0t


Yup. That's what we say. Well, actually, I say, "Bad luck". Some people have it.

Everyone please watch this video if you want information on icing.

video.google.com...

Also visit links further down post please.

Originally posted by Aubryish
reply to post by research100

 

Autopilot? Is it normal for a plane to be on autopilot when it is about to land. and why did the story change from nose dive to belly flop. Unlike AA77 , 3407 did not disintegrate

mefeedia.com...

In icing conditions it is not recommended to fly with autopilot on, as it will tend soak up the changes in aerodynamics through trim; thus the pilot won't be abled to tell how severe the icing is.

www.ntsb.gov...

You can yak about icing all you want, but you guys make it sound like no one ever flew an airplane on a cold day before.

You make it sound like a plane has never crashed due to icing before. It has happened before, in very similar incidents.

Hey, this plane was made in Canada. You think they might know something about flying in icy conditions?

I don't care if it was made in Canada; they're certified to the same requirements and have similar de-ice systems as other aircraft that have crashed in icing. Aircraft made in Canada are not somehow immune to severe icing, the same way that Canadians are not magically immune to the cold.

At least one investigator described it as a sudden, catastrophic event. Airplane flying normally one second, flying out of control the next.

Doesn't mean it wasn't icing. The problems occured during configuration change, which would change the aerodynamics of the plane. If it were iced up then this change would of caused a sudden event.

but I feel there are also other factors involved. Mechanical failure, pilot error, sabotage, --at this point I'm not ruling anything out.

Sure the crash could of been caused by anything, and we shouldn't rule anything out. However, all evidence points to icing, except a truther being on the plane which doesn't constitute as 'evidence'; they are not less likely to die in a plane crash than anyone else.

something is wrong....

autopilot is still engaged at the moment of the crash but the plane crashes virtually in the opposite direction of the approach!?#

Seems a bit odd

Why? The runway is South West, the plane was pointing North West. Apparently it rolled left 46° then 105° right, therefore, it makes sence for it to do a right turn. It's also possible the plane was uncontrolled which explains it.

At no point have I heard Mr. Chealander say it was on autopilot. What he did say, was that the "auto-shaker and auto-push" were activated. Again At no point did I hear him say it was on auto-pilot. He stated that the ILS was activated, which I believe is not the same thing as "auto-pilot"(pilots? is this true?)

Yeah, stick shaker; it shakes the stick and pushes nose forward when the aircraft comes very close to stall. It's normal and always automatic. Doesn't mean anyone was unconcious, however, because if the plane is uncontrolled, then it's not exactly uncommon for an aircraft to stall.

autopilot is still engaged at the moment of the crash but the plane crashes virtually in the opposite direction of the approach!?

If the plane is out of control what can autopilot do? Furthermore, autopilot will disconnect in abnormal situations.

They had the de-icer engaged 11 mins into their flight. These planes are capable in much tougher weather.

The de-ice doesn't cover other parts of the aircraft and doesn't stop 'runback' ice. Also, American Eagle Flight 4184 was apparently 'capable in much tougher weather'. In the investigation of AA 4184 it was found that icing encountered in flight can actually be significantly worse than what the aircraft are certified for.

Why was auto-push(nose down position) activated? The only reason I can imagine is that the crew was no longer able to perform this plane-saving maneuver themselves. They were unconcious by this time.

Why would they suddently be unconcious? Stick shaker is automatic when the plane stalls, which can be a symptom of icing. In my opinion the plane stalled and the pilots lost control, therefore, the stick shaker would of automatically activated.

And it still crashed right-side up? Was this some kind of aerobatic aircraft?

Is that a joke? What would you expect to happen? The plane magically flipping upside down or something? An aircraft stalling can create violent maneuvers... What do you suggest happened?

The question the NTSB sidestepped at this point , because it was asked by both the family's of the victims and the press, is, "did the pilot over-correct, is that why it went nose-up so far?"

???any pilots have any opinion on that?

Doesn't click. Don't understand what they mean.

It's possible the pilot overcorrected possibly worsening the situation. I don't see any evidence pointing to that however.

[edit on 15/2/2009 by C0bzz]

[edit on 15/2/2009 by C0bzz]

Some people are so hell bent on a conspiracy, they let commonsense go right out the window. Comments like "Hey that plane was made in Canada, you think they would know something about flying on a call day." Eh?

I will ignore the fact that Canada was even mentioned, and say that is like comparing apples to oranges. "cold " and ice are entirely different things. Cold won't change the aerodynamics of an aircraft, ice most definitely will. My gosh it was freezing cold, light snow, hazy and the wind was blowing like crazy. Wind shear alone can bring down a plane.

What is so damn conspiratorial about a plane crashing due to bad weather? You even had other pilots radio air traffic and complain that they were experiencing icing! Are you telling me because some 9/11 widow was on the flight, it was such a big deal that TPB downed it on purpose?

Oh I know the MSM isn't reporting the truth because they were actually transporting the reptilians that had been found just hours before. This was the whole reason the FBI was involved! Honestly!! some of you sound this ridiculous. If you want to speculate about a conspiracy, then at least make it a plausible theory. Not some half cocked story with statements about how suspicious it is because the plane landed right side up.

reply to post by questioningall


The optimum temperature for ice to form is around the plus 5°C and -20°C with visible moisture present.
Anti ice (Must be on) +5°C or colder, with Visible Moisture…turning off anti ice must be greater then 10°C or when out of icing conditions to prevents flameouts. De-icing boots require a build up of ice on the leading edge of a wing. Boots are inflated to knock the ice off then deflated quickly so as a pocket of air is not formed in-between the rubber boots and the ice accumulation. If the boots do not deflate within seconds from a vacuum pump system the ice would form around the boot and the boot would not be able to brake off the ice because of the gap which was formed. In other words, if you had a balloon and you blow it up and pored freezing water over it and formed ice around it then deflated the balloon the only way to break the ice would be to make the balloon bigger once you inflate it again. On an airplane you can overinflate the de-icing boots because you would destroy them that is why they cycle (the inflation and deflation of the de-icing boots). The boots must not be in the inflated position for not more than a few seconds to prevent the air pocket from forming. The crew should monitor the duty cycle to verify its working properly.
The pilots were talking about ice on the leading edge of the wing and on their windshield which blows your conspicuity theory out the window? When you see the visible ice build up on or around your windscreen…and the crew did have the anti ice and de-ice equipment on your aircraft is picking up a lot of ice (Experienced it going into Rochester NY and the ice can build up so fast (One inch in just a few minute going through a layer of clouds only a few thousand feet thick) before you know it the airspeed drops off so quickly because of the drag due to the ice and the extra weight requires more power; before you know it you have full power applied to both engines and you still cannot maintain your airspeed without descending. (By the way the Autopilot will keep trimming the aircraft trim tabs to keep the plane from descending if it was on!!) You can feel the aircraft operating at the verge of a stall if your hand flying it and the airspeed may be much higher due to the change in the aerodynamics of the wing. At the time of the accident Approach Control told the aircraft to contact tower which normally is at the point the aircraft has intercepted the Localizer and is just outside the outer marker which is normally the point the aircraft intercepts the Glide path indication to start its decent to the airport. At this point the crew is starting to run the landing check list which is normally one dot below glide path indication the gear comes down and 10 degrees of flaps are added to start the decent. Being the NTSB said the autopilot was on up to this point the crew did not have any hands on feel on how the aircraft felt like flying being the autopilot was turned off...if the autopilot was turned off at all (I’m speculating) because the pilot could have had the autopilot configured to fly the approach!! The autopilot was flying the aircraft and making all the minor trim changes for the crew so they had no idea the aircraft was operating so close to a stall. When the pilot flying called for flaps and the pilot not flying selected the flaps that is when all hell broke loose for the crew. The flaps changed the angle of attack of the main wing and the elevator which brought on a stall which caused the plane to pitched nose down so fast the pilots were franticly trying to gain control of the aircraft in the few seconds they had. The only options the pilot’s had at this point was to add power, retract the flaps and gear, keep the ball centered to regain control and believe it or lower the nose of the aircraft to regain the necessary airflow or airspeed over the elevator and main wings to recover from the stall they were in. At 150 or 160 knots which is somewhere around 170 mph and you only have 3000 feet to travel (I didn’t look at the approach plate) do the math…how many seconds do you think they had??? The pilots knew what was happening at this point because they added power and tried to retract the flaps before impact.…Do you really think they had time to make a radio call??? What flaps do is it allows an aircraft to fly at a much slower airspeed and still produce the amount of lift required to keep the wings from stalling out. This accident is almost exactly like the one which happened back in the 90’s where as the plane was in a hold and the pilots had the autopilot on and the aircraft was picking up ice and the autopilot was adjusting the trim of the aircraft to compensate for the extra weight, drag and decrease in airspeed to keep the plane level without it descending.

The optimum temperature for ice to form is around the plus 5°C and -20°C with visible moisture present.
Anti ice (Must be on) +5°C or colder, with Visible Moisture…turning off anti ice must be greater then 10°C or when out of icing conditions to prevents flameouts. De-icing boots require a build up of ice on the leading edge of a wing. Boots are inflated to knock the ice off then deflated quickly so as a pocket of air is not formed in-between the rubber boots and the ice accumulation. If the boots do not deflate within seconds from a vacuum pump system the ice would form around the boot and the boot would not be able to brake off the ice because of the gap which was formed. In other words, if you had a balloon and you blow it up and pored freezing water over it and formed ice around it then deflated the balloon the only way to break the ice would be to make the balloon bigger once you inflate it again. On an airplane you can overinflate the de-icing boots because you would destroy them that is why they cycle (the inflation and deflation of the de-icing boots). The boots must not be in the inflated position for not more than a few seconds to prevent the air pocket from forming. The crew should monitor the duty cycle to verify the system is working properly.
What will happen is NTSB will announce Pilot error being there died…we lost some good people and the lawyers will have a field day…The aircraft should be required to go through more ice testing to duplicate the scenario so as to be able to apply it to flight simulators to train current and future pilot on how not to get into the same situation in the future and also come out with better de-icing equipment regarding replacing the rubber boots with something better.
The pilots were talking about ice on the leading edge of the wing and on their windshield which blows your conspicuity theory out the window? When you see the visible ice build up on or around your windscreen…and the crew did have the anti ice and de-ice equipment on your aircraft is picking up a lot of ice (Experienced it going into Rochester NY and the ice can build up so fast (One inch in just a few minute going through a layer of clouds only a few thousand feet thick) before you know it the airspeed drops off so quickly because of the drag due to the ice and the extra weight requires more power; before you know it you have full power applied to both engines and you still cannot maintain your airspeed without descending. (By the way the Autopilot will keep trimming the aircraft trim tabs to keep the plane from descending if it was on!!) You can feel the aircraft operating at the verge of a stall if your hand flying it and the airspeed may be much higher due to the change in the aerodynamics of the wing. At the time of the accident Approach Control told the aircraft to contact tower which normally is at the point the aircraft has intercepted the Localizer and is just outside the outer marker which is normally the point the aircraft intercepts the Glide path indication to start its decent to the airport. At this point the crew is starting to run the landing check list which is normally one dot below glide path indication the gear comes down and 10 degrees of flaps are added to start the decent. Being the NTSB said the autopilot was on up to this point the crew did not have any hands on feel on how the aircraft felt like flying being the autopilot was turned off...if the autopilot was turned off at all (I’m speculating) because the pilot could have had the autopilot configured to fly the approach!! The autopilot was flying the aircraft and making all the minor trim changes for the crew so they had no idea the aircraft was operating so close to a stall. When the pilot flying called for flaps and the pilot not flying selected the flaps that is when all hell broke loose for the crew. The flaps changed the angle of attack of the main wing and the elevator which brought on a stall which caused the plane to pitched nose down so fast the pilots were franticly trying to gain control of the aircraft in the few seconds they had. The only options the pilot’s had at this point was to add power, retract the flaps and gear, keep the ball centered to regain control and believe it or lower the nose of the aircraft to regain the necessary airflow or airspeed over the elevator and main wings to recover from the stall they were in. At 150 or 160 knots which is somewhere around 170 mph and you only have 3000 feet to travel (I didn’t look at the approach plate) do the math…how many seconds do you think they had??? The pilots knew what was happening at this point because they added power and tried to retract the flaps before impact.…Do you really think they had time to make a radio call??? What flaps do is it allows an aircraft to fly at a much slower airspeed and still produce the amount of lift required to keep the wings from stalling out. This accident is almost exactly like the one which happened back in the 90’s where as the plane was in a hold and the pilots had the autopilot on and the aircraft was picking up ice and the autopilot was adjusting the trim of the aircraft to compensate for the extra weight, drag and decrease in airspeed to keep the plane level without it descending.

Originally posted by TheWelder

Originally posted by questioningall


that is interesting, I also find it very interesting, that they have moved all the people out that live in the area.

Maybe the houses that are right next to the crash, the people could be moved, but lots of people and they are not allowing them back in? Why such a wide perimeter? They have already searched the area for debris.

I believe its only 12 houses. I'll ask

TheWelder

If I remember correctly, on Friday one of the spokesmen claimed that subsequent explosions were caused by a gas main. If there is a question as to the integrity and safety of the gas lines, they would evacuate nearby homes.

On the other hand, we have alot of hazmat from the aircraft which could also be a reason for evacuation neighbors.

Originally posted by sueloujo
something is wrong....

autopilot is still engaged at the moment of the crash but the plane crashes virtually in the opposite direction of the approach!?#

Seems a bit odd

Actually, at the moment of crash, the AP had disengaged. That happens automatically if "stick pusher "engages, which, according to the DFDR, it did. It is normal , and recommended, to fly a "coupled " approach, which has the AP precisely follow the localizer (horizontal guidance) and glide slope (Vertical guidance). However, it is strongly recommended that the AP be disengaged in icing conditions since it will mask the evidence of airframe icing. The AP just keeps rolling in elevator trim to maintain altitude, until so much trim is put in that you can get a tailplane stall or the angle of attack exceeds critical and the stick shaker and then pusher kicks in, creating a hard dive which may e unrecoverable at final approach fix altitudes. It is also common for ATC to vector aircraft on the Runway 23 ILS approach at KBUF onto a downwind leg, which is the reciprocal heading of the runway heading, before a final vector to intercept the localizor just outside the Outer Marker, which is the final approach fix (4.5 miles fom the runway at KBUF.

I have not talked to the individual I asked about how many houses were evacuated since I asked. But, I did catch it on another channel this morning that the FBI was on site and removing evidence for a criminal investigation. ??

TheWelder

The NTSB found that the autopilot was on during final approach. This Is something a student pilot would never do.
One thing I question. With a Pilot and Co-pilot in control of the aircraft, why would they leave the autopilot on? They wouldn't.
But what if the autopilot was activated from an outside source and it executed a pre-programmed routine to bring the plane down.
Possible? Yes.
If you remember last year all planes were grounded for a week to perform an FAA inspection of a so-called critical part failure. This was the only time in FAA history that they grounded all the planes at once. A lot of profitable small airlines failed but the large airlines, running in the red and getting subsidies from the government did not complain and was not finically affected.
Is it possible to install changes to the firmware on the, airplane, to interface the radio communications to the autopilot? Yes.
Beverly Eckert was a threat by opening up a can of worms. A civil trial would expose information that would link the Bush administration to the planning of the 911 attract on the towers. By visiting Obama and exposing some of the 911 conspiracies she signed her death warrant.
We live in two Unites States. The one shown to the public and the Dark U.S. run by the private sector and willing to kill large numbers of people is just a means to end.
After working a short time for a US security agency I have seen the Dark U.S.
They practice redirection, and media manipulation like a magician. What you see and hear is not real.

Sorry no link to provide, but somewhere I read yesterday night, that the they think plane was on automatic pilot which contravenes SOP in an ice condition situation such as the one under discussion.

Anyone have more information or insights on this?


Mike F

They practice redirection, and media manipulation like a magician. What you see and hear is not real.

A poster at another forum picked something up that I hadn't noticed before:

"...... there's something else bothering me about that...

The ATC kept ASKING THEM(other aircraft in the area after the crash) about ice... and they kept saying, nope, doesn't seem to be building.

But they say the plane was talking about... the plane wasn't talking about it, the ATC was ASKING ABOUT IT repeatedly. WHY?! Just to give someone a convenient excuse, it appears to me.

Doesn't look to me at all like they were talking about ice. They were being asked about ice and kept saying it was NOT BUILDING UP."


The poster has a point. Why, after an airplane dissappears off his radar screen, would the ATC start asking everybody else about ice conditions? I wonder if someone wasn't "painting a picture" for us?

[edit on 16-2-2009 by starviego]

Fuhgedditaboutit, the fix is in:

www.examiner.com...
Experts who helped identify victims from Flight 93's crash in a Pennsylvania field on 9/11 have joined the search for remains from a commuter plane's crash site outside Buffalo.

Originally posted by 4nsicdoc

Originally posted by sueloujo
something is wrong....

autopilot is still engaged at the moment of the crash but the plane crashes virtually in the opposite direction of the approach!?#

Seems a bit odd

Actually, at the moment of crash, the AP had disengaged. That happens automatically if "stick pusher "engages, which, according to the DFDR, it did. It is normal , and recommended, to fly a "coupled " approach, which has the AP precisely follow the localizer (horizontal guidance) and glide slope (Vertical guidance). However, it is strongly recommended that the AP be disengaged in icing conditions since it will mask the evidence of airframe icing. The AP just keeps rolling in elevator trim to maintain altitude, until so much trim is put in that you can get a tailplane stall or the angle of attack exceeds critical and the stick shaker and then pusher kicks in, creating a hard dive which may e unrecoverable at final approach fix altitudes. It is also common for ATC to vector aircraft on the Runway 23 ILS approach at KBUF onto a downwind leg, which is the reciprocal heading of the runway heading, before a final vector to intercept the localizor just outside the Outer Marker, which is the final approach fix (4.5 miles fom the runway at KBUF.

A cut and paste if ever I saw one!

reply to post by starviego

Also, does anybody know if the local cell-phone network crashed about the same time? That tends to happen around these suspicious events, and if true would be another red flag.

Reason cell phone networks "crash" in emergencies is do to overloading -
everyone tries to use their phones at the same time overwhelming the
system not some dark conspiracy.....

Maybe this plane was struck by a fireball as seen in Texas on Sunday? Maybe more meteors will be striking the earth soon....

Do you know that this Hudson bay accident was only a false-flag operation which was only motive to tell the masses that these plane accidents are a normal things like an car accidents. So the elite managed to murder the Beverly Eckert in this next fatal Buffalo airplane accident, which wasn't not an accident. It was a CIA's inside Job and ordered by Illuminati scums.

Beverly Eckert had some private conversation with Obama and there was some too danger details which elite didn't want to go public and i quess Obama told her that 9/11 was an inside job and he's sorry about that her husband died in that day. But he can't do nothing about it because he is just a puppet president, what he really is. And Zbigniew Brezinski is the really man behind him with these all III world war plans.