Rapelay virtual rape game banned by Amazon

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Hi IR - I'm Spira :-)

(Spiramirabilis - what a mouthful)

Sorry your words appeared like an accusation towards me...

I constantly use the word "you" when I should use "we" - or something else - it's my mistake

No one wants to be associated with something they themselves find disgusting. Quite simple really.

absolutely - but then we get back to how complicated it is to define what is or isn't disgusting - maybe it can't be done

I'll try to say what I want to say without wasting too much virtual space

I am a woman - and have experienced first hand - along with many women - how many times the line between reality and make believe gets crossed

I think these games are disgusting

However - I am a real woman, who lives in the real world - and I do so very much believe in freedom - the freedom for people to be able to determine what's right for them - and that means that I - we - have to accommodate many different points of view to make any of this work

but I don't believe that means you don't question - you never confront something you believe to be wrong

I don't think you just turn your head and look away

I use my freedom and my right to free speech to speak my mind, make my opinion heard - and to make a stand where ever and whenever possible

saying that words, thoughts, and ideas can't harm people is irresponsible - because of course they can - those words, thoughts and ideas go on to become law - so saying they have no affect on people is not a useful argument

better we protect our right to disagree publicly than we quibble about what can or can't actually harm another person - because often enough that argument is nothing more than a decoy

Rape as fun? My opinion - absolutely not

would I see it stopped if it were up to me - honestly? yes.

am I willing to say so - of course

am I willing to listen to the opinions of others on this subject?

yes - it's the only way

I'll live by the decisions we've all agreed on - or I'll fight them

I'm free to decide how I want live in this world - and what kind of world I want to live in - as are we all

if I think something is wrong - I'm going to say so

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Hi IR - I'm Spira :-)

(Spiramirabilis - what a mouthful)

Nice to err meet you? Not sure that's the right phrase, but anyway

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I constantly use the word "you" when I should use "we" - or something else - it's my mistake

Ok no problem. So a misunderstanding.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
absolutely - but then we get back to how complicated it is to define what is or isn't disgusting - maybe it can't be done

Well i did say what each person finds disgusting to themselves. That's easy to define for each person.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I'll try to say what I want to say without wasting too much virtual space

I am a woman - and have experienced first hand - along with many women - how many times the line between reality and make believe gets crossed

I think these games are disgusting

Ok i didn't quote it all because it was very long and i have no issues with what you have stated. I can see in regards to freedom we are on pretty much the same page. I have only one question for you as there is a thought that is slightly confused and nagging me.

Are you saying that if the majority want some form of intellectual property banned then it should be banned? Or are you simply defending your right to voice your distaste with the game? That's i think the last point i'm finding confusing.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Rape as fun? My opinion - absolutely not

Well not real rape no, we're talking about a game. I suppose that is what you meant and i agree i myself wonder how anyone could find this fun.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
would I see it stopped if it were up to me - honestly? yes.

Ahh i find this sad. If i had that power i wouldn't use it, because it would be an abuse of said power.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
am I willing to say so - of course

am I willing to listen to the opinions of others on this subject?

yes - it's the only way

I'll live by the decisions we've all agreed on - or I'll fight them

I'm free to decide how I want live in this world - and what kind of world I want to live in - as are we all

if I think something is wrong - I'm going to say so

Well absolutely commendable on every point except one. You said you are free to live how you wish in this world, i support this wholly and completely and it is the very essence of a quality Republic. If you believe this however then you have to let those who like this game live as they see fit.

Still you are perfectly entitled to voice your disgust at this game and i would never seek to prevent you from doing so.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Ahh i find this sad. If i had that power i wouldn't use it, because it would be an abuse of said power.

If it were in your power to stop something you believed to be wrong - you wouldn't try? You would do nothing? Say nothing?

What is freedom then? Do you think freedom means never questioning anything anyone ever does because they have a right to do whatever they want?

there are no conditions on this? ever?

do you ever wonder how we got these rights - these freedoms - in the first place?

:-)

people are free to think/say/believe/do whatever they want

you and I are both free to question that - fight it if we think we should - or can

we're subject to the same checks and balances as everyone else - until we arrive at a point where we're no longer free to play the game

it's the process that counts - not the rules - the laws

they're constantly changing - they have to

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
If it were in your power to stop something you believed to be wrong - you wouldn't try? You would do nothing? Say nothing?

Not if it's simply about free speech. Don't spread this out to include everything i am takling simply about freedom to think whatever you like as long as you don't hurt someone. If i had the power to stop this game being sold then i wouldn't, because it would be against freedom as i hold it and would be an abuse of that power.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
What is freedom then? Do you think freedom means never questioning anything anyone ever does because they have a right to do whatever they want?

there are no conditions on this? ever?

I already said, several times what freedom is in my previous posts. I thought we had settled it but ok i'll repeat myself.

As long as no one causes harm to another (and i told you what i considered harm in my previous posts) then nothing they do should be banned. You have every right to question what they're doing as that is also part of freedom and i stated that earlier as well. However any action taken to stop them having their freedom would be against the laws dealing with free speech.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
do you ever wonder how we got these rights - these freedoms - in the first place?

We questioned tyrannical rulers and fought them for freedom to do however we so please as long as we don't infringe upon the freedom of others. I am very aware of what was given up to get us this freedom and that is why i'm trying to say these people should not have their rights infringed. A ban by law would infringe it (not that you have called for a ban i am talking about others in this thread).

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
people are free to think/say/believe/do whatever they want

you and I are both free to question that - fight it if we think we should - or can

we're subject to the same checks and balances as everyone else - until we arrive at a point where we're no longer free to play the game

it's the process that counts - not the rules - the laws

they're constantly changing - they have to

Actually the checks and balances system guarantees our freedom for that game to exist. Maybe you need to reread those laws because it protects all forms of free speech and expression. So if a day comes when it is banned because the majority want it then accept that you have lost a small slice of freedom. Just because it wasn't a slice you were using and didn't involve you doesn't mean it is any less important than the things you hold dear.

The laws governing freedom are not subject to change, if they did change then we'd no longer be free. That is the beauty of freedom laws, they protect your right to protest and be annoyed about this game, and the gamers right to have the game and be free to play it.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

As long as no one causes harm to another (and i told you what i considered harm in my previous posts) then nothing they do should be banned. You have every right to question what they're doing as that is also part of freedom and i stated that earlier as well. However any action taken to stop them having their freedom would be against the laws dealing with free speech.

what you see as harmful and what I see as harmful can, obviously, be two completely different things. At least two.

In addition to this - what you see as freedom of speech may be interpreted differently by different people

is a game - an interactive game - the same thing as a book or a movie? Can you actually prove that it won't harm other people in some way?

I'm not making an argument either way - I'm simply demonstrating that just because you say it's not harmful - doesn't end the discussion

just because you and a whole army of people says it's not harmful - doesn't end the discussion

freedom of speech also includes my right to question whether or not it really is just free speech - or whether it might not be something else entirely

Actually the checks and balances system guarantees our freedom for that game to exist. Maybe you need to reread those laws because it protects all forms of free speech and expression. So if a day comes when it is banned because the majority want it then accept that you have lost a small slice of freedom. Just because it wasn't a slice you were using and didn't involve you doesn't mean it is any less important than the things you hold dear.

The laws governing freedom are not subject to change, if they did change then we'd no longer be free. That is the beauty of freedom laws, they protect your right to protest and be annoyed about this game, and the gamers right to have the game and be free to play it.

just preaching to the choir now - read what I said more carefully

so, you think anything that falls into the category of freedom of speech should never be questioned or challenged?

i dont want to sound like a racist or anything but it got to be said, why are Japanese into weird disturbing stuff? i like their culture and everything but i always find that they got unusual tastes in women, if you know what i mean as seen in their hentai stuff. again, im just curious prove me wrong, i love Japanese people but they accepting of weird things that have become part of their culture.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Arguments were made for banning the game and so arguments were made against a ban. That is why the arguments are applicable to this discussion.

I think you mis interpreted what I wrote. I wrote the difference between this particluar game and crime rates between Japan and the US/UK. Those are two completely different subjects.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
However your morals may not be your cultures morals and so this game was sold on Amazon for those in your culture that follow a different moral set whilst still following the laws. So these people have a legal right to access such material until it becomes illegal. Of course Amazon have every right to ban anything they wish as they are a private retailer.

I dont think I am trying to compare MY morals at all here. I am simply saying that one culture's morals are not applicable or acceptable to another.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Ok firstly no one has been able to link any study that categorically shows a harm that this game is causing so lets quash that one. Secondly yes i agree that is why Amazon made this decision, they didn't want negative publicity and so banned it from their site. This is perfectly legal and so perfectly ok.

Were you around during the Columbine School shooting incident? Are you aware of that 9 year old kid who took off in his parent's mini-van after missing the school bus and told officers after being asked where did he learn to drive, the kid replied "I learned from playing GTA"????

I think you can find those events on Google and the links to the games asssociated to those events.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If a child can get a hold of that game they can just as easily buy all those movies and any of them will be just as damaging. That is why they are rated 18. A rape game or a slasher flick will effect kids in different ways but i doubt any of it will be positive. Arguing which does more damage i think is not going to find a clear winner. However children shouldn't be playing or seeing any of that content so the point is moot.

First off, a child is less likely to have his or her parent's credit card on hand to buy anything from an online store, be it Amazon or Games-R-Us. It is MOST likely that if an irresponsible parent were to buy this game, that it will end up in the kid's hands and on their pc without having to buy a thing. Also, with this game being plastered up on p2p torrent sites and seeded a gazillion times, what are the chances you think that a kid will have access to it? Id say the chances are quite good compared to trying to buy it from Amazon or any other online retailer. All the kid has to do is simply point and click. Any kid knows how to do that quite easily, but to try to get mommie or daddy's cc card and do an online transaction is considerably less likely to occur.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If you make the argument that things should be banned in case children get a hold of them then you'd end up banning kitchen knifes, household cleaning products etc. We should not ban distasteful content just because someone might get hold of it who shouldn't. In fact that is protected by freedom of speech laws.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with keeping knives or guns or medicines or cleaning products out of the reach of children. I dont know where your comming up with that one. But to clarify it for you, freedom of speech has nothing to do with a game manufacturer of a forign country making a rape game. The freedom of speech amendment applies to the USA, not Japan. Japan has their own equivilant of that. But the amendment has nothing to do with the manufacture of a product or service. It also has nothing to do with protecting our kids from getting their hands onto things they should not. I submit, your point here is mute.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Amazon don't care about morals and nor does any faceless corporation. Corporations sell you tobacco, knowing it will kill you or damage your health, yet as long as they make a profit and can present themselves in a good light they continue to sell it. Amazon don't care about you, they care about the bottom line, that's profits and appearance.

If they did not care about morals or customer satisfaction, they would have far more damaging products up there and have it readily accessable to anyone, including kids. It does not matter what you or I think that Amazon or any other online retailer thinks of us. What matters to those companies is their reputation for customer satisfaction, and business tastes and image. They thought it was the right choice to make. I salute them for making that choice.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Anyway Amazons ban of it shouldn't matter because again, they are a private business and entitled to sell, or not sell whatever they wish within the law.

Exactly. As it is within the law and right for people to choose to not buy this game, or to buy this game. Some dont agree that it should be banned, some do. Big deal. That has been how marketing and business has functioned for a very long time. Its known as trends, and business tends to follow trends that work and trends that last, then change when the trends change.

Businesses also use their heads. At least there are some that still do. Some, like this game maker, dont give a hoot about what kind of impact their product will have. They care less, and only want to sell their trash and dont care if your kid our mine gets ahold of it.

So you talk about faceless, careless corporations who dont give a hoot and refer to one that made the right choice to remove this game, yet say nothing about the same careless, faceless company that manufactured this rape game and think they are different?

Thats some pretty demented thinking friend.



Cheers!!!!

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


dude not again...keep your "open-mindness" to yourself please. there is nothing okay about a game glorifying rape. in fact i find it extremely offensive and disgusting. ive seen some of the pics from the game on sites and i gotta say its more than disturbing and surreal. there is nothing fun about this and anyone who so far as touches a game like this should be put in jail. and as a society there is no reason for us to give into this, we should fight it...why are we so calm about it?

[edit on 15-2-2009 by DuneKnight]

Originally posted by RFBurns
So you talk about faceless, careless corporations who dont give a hoot and refer to one that made the right choice to remove this game, yet say nothing about the same careless, faceless company that manufactured this rape game and think they are different?

Thats some pretty demented thinking friend.

Cheers!!!!

Demented thinking? I have refrained from insults but you seem happy to go for it. I won't be bothering replying to the majority of your post because you either didn't respond to what i was saying, twisted the words or invented things. This last bit however i will talk you through.

You say it is the right choice and that is not what i said. You are putting your morals into that one and i'm not. I said that it is their company and they can sell or ban whatever they wish. I never said i thought it was the right decision. I am defending the right of the company to exercise it's own freedom, that doesn't mean i think it was the right decision of course.

As for the company that made the game, well again they are faceless and don't care about you or i, they are trying to make a profit. I thought that point was implied but obviously you were unable to see it, or you just wanted to go on the attack inventing things again. I never said i liked the corporation who made the game, i simply defend their right to exercise their minds and create things they think will sell. That is also part of freedom.

Originally posted by DuneKnight
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

dude not again...keep your "open-mindness" to yourself please. there is nothing okay about a game glorifying rape. in fact i find it extremely offensive and disgusting. ive seen some of the pics from the game on sites and i gotta say its more than disturbing and surreal. there is nothing fun about this and anyone who so far as touches a game like this should be put in jail. and as a society there is no reason for us to give into this, we should fight it...why are we so calm about it?

[edit on 15-2-2009 by DuneKnight]

Ahh i see so it's not allowed for me to voice my opinion? You people have an odd view of free speech.

I have never defended the actual content of the game, please refer to a post where i have. The game is disgusting, absolutely agreed. I'm tired of reiterating that point. As for keeping my open mindedness to myself, why should i? I could equally say keep your close mindedness to yourself but i don't because you have a right to post what you want within ATS's rules as do i.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by RFBurns
So you talk about faceless, careless corporations who dont give a hoot and refer to one that made the right choice to remove this game, yet say nothing about the same careless, faceless company that manufactured this rape game and think they are different?

Thats some pretty demented thinking friend.

Cheers!!!!

Demented thinking? I have refrained from insults but you seem happy to go for it. I won't be bothering replying to the majority of your post because you either didn't respond to what i was saying, twisted the words or invented things. This last bit however i will talk you through.

You say it is the right choice and that is not what i said. You are putting your morals into that one and i'm not. I said that it is their company and they can sell or ban whatever they wish. I never said i thought it was the right decision. I am defending the right of the company to exercise it's own freedom, that doesn't mean i think it was the right decision of course.

As for the company that made the game, well again they are faceless and don't care about you or i, they are trying to make a profit. I thought that point was implied but obviously you were unable to see it, or you just wanted to go on the attack inventing things again. I never said i liked the corporation who made the game, i simply defend their right to exercise their minds and create things they think will sell. That is also part of freedom.

let me guess, you are selfish. because freedom can be selfish.

Originally posted by DuneKnight


let me guess, you are selfish. because freedom can be selfish.

More insults, i'm not really sure where this one even came from. You have no idea who i am or what i'm like so please refrain from the insults, it won't get us anywhere.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by DuneKnight


let me guess, you are selfish. because freedom can be selfish.

More insults, i'm not really sure where this one even came from. You have no idea who i am or what i'm like so please refrain from the insults, it won't get us anywhere.

you are that guy who seduces women every once in awhile just for sex and leave them once done.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by DuneKnight]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Demented thinking? I have refrained from insults but you seem happy to go for it.

That isnt an insult. It is a comment on the thinking method you are using. Perhaps I could have said "Thats some pretty sick thinking"..but that doesnt accurately describe it either.

Your telling us that mindless corporations dont care about us. Your telling us that they all do not have morals of any kind.

Your right...to a point. Some corporations DO in fact have morals and DO take into consideration what people think...otherwise they would be out of business real fast. An example of that is what Amazon did with this game. They obviously looked at the potential disaster it would have brought their business, thus took action to prevent disaster.

Now lets look at the other side of the coin. The company that made this game.

Do you think they are considering public opinion in marketing this game? Do you think they are taking into consideration the impact it will have on many people? Do you think they considered it byond anything other than selling another piece of software?

Do you think all those p2p torrent sites give a hoot?


Cheers!!!!

[edit on 15-2-2009 by RFBurns]

Originally posted by DuneKnight
you are that guy who seduces women every once in awhile just for sex and leave them once done.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by DuneKnight]

Huh i what err. You know nothing of my life, even if that were true it would have nothing to do with this thread. It's not true but you shouldn't even be going on about it. If you don't like what i'm saying please counter the points i have made or leave.

Originally posted by DuneKnight


you are that guy who seduces women every once in awhile just for sex and leave them once done.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by DuneKnight]

Duneknight, shutup.

Or at least apologize, your going too far with your guesses and insults.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by RFBurns
Your telling us that mindless corporations dont care about us. Your telling us that they all do not have morals of any kind.

By definition a corporation cannot have emotions as a corporation is just a framework and laws. The people inside of it can have emotions and be the nicest of people but within the framework they allow corporations to do very bad things. It's always about the profit for large corporations, and public image.

Originally posted by RFBurns
Your right...to a point. Some corporations DO in fact have morals and DO take into consideration what people think...otherwise they would be out of business real fast. An example of that is what Amazon did with this game. They obviously looked at the potential disaster it would have brought their business, thus took action to prevent disaster.

You are confusing morals with a form of perception. The corporations cannot be seen to be bad because they lose money, so it's all about the money not morals. Amazon as you say took the decision in case they lost money. You think if this game were earning them millions that they would have banned it? I think not.

Originally posted by RFBurns
Now lets look at the other side of the coin. The company that made this game.

Do you think they are considering public opinion in marketing this game? Do you think they are taking into consideration the impact it will have on many people? Do you think they considered it byond anything other than selling another piece of software?

This company, just like amazon don't care about morals, they're after money. If every company had to assess every product for how it had impact on people then few products would ever be sold as something always seems to offend someone. They must be considering the opinion of a certain market otherwise they would never make it. Obviously the company is making money and that is all that is important to a corporation.

It is not the job of corporations to worry about the moral values of the public. The only time this concerns them is when they start losing money and then adapt accordingly.

Originally posted by RFBurns

Do you think all those p2p torrent sites give a hoot?


Cheers!!!!

[edit on 15-2-2009 by RFBurns]

No but i fail to see what that has to do with this.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

I have only one question for you as there is a thought that is slightly confused and nagging me.

Are you saying that if the majority want some form of intellectual property banned then it should be banned? Or are you simply defending your right to voice your distaste with the game? That's i think the last point i'm finding confusing.

I can see I skipped over this one, so...

I'm saying that the right to these freedoms includes the right to question these freedoms

I'm saying that anything is fair game - and not above scrutiny

if something is deemed to be harmful in some way - that doesn't necessarily work against free speech - there have been plenty of instances where this has been challenged, and challenged - and challenged again

if something gets passed into law that shouldn't be - we should absolutely fight for what we believe to be right

I believe that just saying we have the right to free speech is not the end of the discussion - we can't just determine that everyone has the right to say and do whatever they want unchallenged, end of story - everyone go home

and that if we believe something is unjust - we fight for justice

with the understanding that we will never all of us agree on what justice is - or at least it's not likely we will all agree - all at the same time - or all in the same way

expecting it to be that simple is - unrealistic

Originally posted by DuneKnight
i dont want to sound like a racist or anything but it got to be said, why are Japanese into weird disturbing stuff? i like their culture and everything but i always find that they got unusual tastes in women, if you know what i mean as seen in their hentai stuff. again, im just curious prove me wrong, i love Japanese people but they accepting of weird things that have become part of their culture.

It is a rather repressed culture. At least in terms of parenting. I have had several Asian -( Japanese mostly) clients in the past.

There are many "unspoken" rules - (as with any culture) - and things that you just don't talk about or do - too much touching - etc. Huge family expectations as to who you are to become - proper education etc. I don't know anything more about it - except what I have heard through them.

There is a certain "standard" that appears to present itself in specific outward appearance and behavior -
(again, like there is in every culture).

Look what kind of stuff the rest of the world is into - and - well - it isn't a lot different I don't think. Repressed - or not.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by spinkyboo]

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I can see I skipped over this one, so...

I'm saying that the right to these freedoms includes the right to question these freedoms

I'm saying that anything is fair game - and not above scrutiny

Well i would agree so thanks for answering that bit. I would say that if this game were ever shown to actually be causing rapes to happen then i would be all up for banning it as that is no longer simply freedom of expression it is causing actual harm to people. Real harm is not covered under free speech.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
and that if we believe something is unjust - we fight for justice

with the understanding that we will never all of us agree on what justice is - or at least it's not likely we will all agree - all at the same time - or all in the same way

expecting it to be that simple is - unrealistic

Well exactly and that is why we have laws protecting the freedom of the individual to indulge in games such as this. It doesn't mean it is morally right to us but it is protected as free speech. You can protest if you wish but as i said if it were banned simply because some people didn't like it then it opens a flood gate to people who want to ban stuff that annoys them. That is why things like this don't get banned by law in truly free countries.

Again though if it ever was shown that this causes some men to go and rape women then that would be incitement and so it could be banned.