Rapelay virtual rape game banned by Amazon

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I've now asked this question to everyone i know, most of them are women. The responses are mostly in support of the game, maybe it's the type of people i surround myself with but they understand that freedom includes things existing that disgust you. All of them without exception thought this game was utterly horrific (a point i agree with) and yet only 1 wants it banned. One out of 23 i sent it to. I admit many of them were already aware of such things because they watch anime and stuff.

However lets turn this around. There are games out there where men get raped, i'm a man and..........i don't want that banned either. So the whole "you have to be a woman to understand" thing seems like nonsense. You may have to be a woman to truly be offended by this particular game, but you have to be a man to truly understand the offense the male rape games cause i think. Still why ban it?

I have to ask what you people think about simulated rape scenes in film? Two people, real people, simulating rape. Lets remember that is what this game is, simulated rape. The only difference is that the people in it aren't real. Are we then to say that rape scenes in movies give a negative view of women? I'm sure those scenes turn some people on.

The idea this gives the impression that women are to be treated badly or demeaned is just not true. It's just like any other game. Are we to say that games like Call of Duty and Doom have demeaned the value of a persons life? It's the exact same thing after all. If someone wants to bring up a case of a child committing a crime after playing a game i may just scream because children are not meant to play these games! Therefore that isn't a valid argument.

For everyone who is against this i have to ask, where does it end? Why should your morals be put upon others? We live in a world where some people hate, truly hate meat eaters. Should we stop eating meat? I bet most of you wouldn't agree with that. When i made the slippery slope argument i didn't do it flippantly. It really is a slippery slope. First it's this, then once that foot is in the door it's violent games, then it's games that offend anyones religion, then it's games that parents think are just teaching bad moral values. In the end we are left back in the days of a small pixel being hit back and forward between two paddles. That is until someone decides that is a game encouraging competition which hurts someones feelings

Now i can hear the scurrying of keys to say it isn't the same thing but in the end it comes down to freedom. As long as someone doesn't harm someone else then i see no problem in any human behavior within that boundary. If we are to accept that a computer game can harm someone then pretty much all games will be banned overnight, along with many movies, tv shows, music, plays and numerous other things.

So you have a choice. You can accept there are things that disgust you in this world, like this game which also disgusts me. You can then move on with your life and not associate with people who play them. Or you can force your moral code down the throats of everyone else and that never leads to peace. I wonder why some people can be utterly horrified by this game and then shrug and move on (like me) and other are equally horrified and want it banned?

I'm arguing a moral code also, but it's a fair one that simply says, "You don't hurt me, i won't hurt you and everything else is fine". Your moral code isn't fair, it's banning behavior that you just don't like. If we go with the ban then lots of people will not have access to something they enjoy, if we don't ban then they will have access and you can ignore it and live your life happily ignoring it. So which way is better?

It doesn't harm anyone, there is no research to say it harms anyone and in fact there are statistics to suggest it has beneficial effects! I have to say if this game prevented even one rape by allowing someone to relieve their sick urges then i'm all for it's existence.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
having read through this thread I have to say - being free to create, sell and play games where an individual is free to violate and abuse women - even if they are only virtual women - for sport - is not something I can support (she says - with an amazing amount of restraint)

it's a despicable concept - with despicable consequences

What about the hentai where women rape men?

I grow weary of this thread, with all the morality thrown around. There is but one, true, fact about the whole argument:

The player is playing a game.

I would argue that the characters in the game are actors following a script.

Or would you have that guy in the movie 300 that essentially raped the kings wife jailed? No, because it was an act, she wasnt really abused was she?

Do you think that the sounds and animations in Rapelay is actual motion capture/sound capture from actual rapes? Nope, its actors that make it.

reply to post by merka


Yep actors and actresses, in fact voice actors in japan are pretty well off, it's a good job over there, a lot do hentai, even thou they later do big time anime movie voiceovers, and some are actresses/actors.

Japanese voice actors (seiyū) work in radio, television and movies. Their work largely mirrors that of their Western counterparts: performing roles in animated cartoons and video games, performing voice-overs for dubs of non-Japanese movies, and providing narration to documentaries and similar programs.

Because the animation industry in Japan is so prolific, seiyū are able to achieve fame on a national level and are able to have full-time careers as voice-over artists. Japanese voice actors are able to take greater charge of their careers than in other countries. Japan also has the institutions to support the career path, with around 130 seiyū schools and troupes of voice actors that work for a specific broadcast company or talent agency. They often attract their own appreciators and fans who watch shows specifically to hear their favorite actor or actress.

Seiyū frequently branch into music, often singing the opening or closing themes of shows in which their character stars, or become involved in non-animated side projects such as audio dramas (involving the same characters in new storylines) or image songs (songs sung in character that are not included in the anime but further develop the character).

[edit on 15-2-2009 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


wow – can you write fast :-)

I've now asked this question to everyone i know, most of them are women. The responses are mostly in support of the game, maybe it's the type of people i surround myself with but they understand that freedom includes things existing that disgust you. All of them without exception thought this game was utterly horrific (a point i agree with) and yet only 1 wants it banned. One out of 23 i sent it to. I admit many of them were already aware of such things because they watch anime and stuff.

However lets turn this around. There are games out there where men get raped, i'm a man and..........i don't want that banned either. So the whole "you have to be a woman to understand" thing seems like nonsense. You may have to be a woman to truly be offended by this particular game, but you have to be a man to truly understand the offense the male rape games cause i think. Still why ban it?

I never said ban it – and this is a perfect example of people not really reading what other people have written

I will support – nay, fight to the very end for everyone’s right to their opinion – their right to say what they need to say – their right to determine what’s right for them

I will actually fight for your right to live in your own filth – and even to determine for yourself what is and isn’t filth

you still need to respect my right to call it as I see it - I see these games from my point of view – not yours – there’s not any reason why I should be expected to do so

I think you can actually see how it’s possible for me to despise these games and still be able to support your right to enjoy them – don’t you? it’s not that complicated

you’re trying to pick a fight where there is no fight

you can fight for your right to keep them – I can fight to make them go away – may the best “man” win

I have to ask what you people think about simulated rape scenes in film? Two people, real people, simulating rape. Lets remember that is what this game is, simulated rape. The only difference is that the people in it aren't real. Are we then to say that rape scenes in movies give a negative view of women? I'm sure those scenes turn some people on.

we’d have to have a discussion on art then – and what is the purpose of art - and it’s not going to be a short chat

if you just want my personal opinion – portraying a rape on film is not an issue for me

watching it might be difficult - but, that's for me to decide - not for me to decide for you

if you want me to go on and include how I feel about the games – in more detail – I’d be happy to

same thing – I’m not interested in trying to control what goes on in people minds or their private parts – even if I thought I actually could

I'm not spending any time worrying about what does or doesn't turn people on

The idea this gives the impression that women are to be treated badly or demeaned is just not true...

can you prove this? I can see why you'd say it - but, you're just saying it doesn't mean a thing - I could say the opposite - it would be pointless

It's just like any other game...

like Monopoly?

...If someone wants to bring up a case of a child committing a crime after playing a game i may just scream because children are not meant to play these games! Therefore that isn't a valid argument.

it wasn't my argument - but, good plan discounting it before I've gone on to make it - saves time

so, why are children not meant to play these games? Interested to get your perspective on this one

For everyone who is against this i have to ask, where does it end? Why should your morals be put upon others? We live in a world where some people hate, truly hate meat eaters. Should we stop eating meat? I bet most of you wouldn't agree with that. When i made the slippery slope argument i didn't do it flippantly. It really is a slippery slope. First it's this, then once that foot is in the door it's violent games, then it's games that offend anyones religion, then it's games that parents think are just teaching bad moral values. In the end we are left back in the days of a small pixel being hit back and forward between two paddles. That is until someone decides that is a game encouraging competition which hurts someones feelings

OK – so here we go – this is the part I am interested in

where do you draw the line? – and I’m actually asking you – not people in general

do you have a line? should there even be a line? where do we as a civilization draw our lines? How do we reach our conclusions?

we make these decisions just like this - by expressing our opinions - and fighting about it - it's about consensus - that's the whole thing

Now i can hear the scurrying of keys to say it isn't the same thing but in the end it comes down to freedom...

you could hear that from over there?

So you have a choice. You can accept there are things that disgust you in this world, like this game which also disgusts me. You can then move on with your life and not associate with people who play them. Or you can force your moral code down the throats of everyone else and that never leads to peace. I wonder why some people can be utterly horrified by this game and then shrug and move on (like me) and other are equally horrified and want it banned?

don't presume to tell me what my choices are.

I’d also prefer it if you wouldn’t assume that you’re in a position to tell me what I can or cannot find morally reprehensible, what I choose to stand up for or against - whether my moral code is or isn’t fair

now, do you see? You’re arguing against your own argument (and again, not mine – I never once told you what you could or couldn’t do)

Your moral code isn't fair, it's banning behavior that you just don't like.

This is just starting to sound like whining - I'm not banning anything - again - never once supported banning anything

you’re making assumptions about what my moral code really is– while simultaneously implying that your morals are superior to mine

I have to say if this game prevented even one rape by allowing someone to relieve their sick urges then i'm all for it's existence.

what can I say? :-)

I find the entire concept of men raping women for fun – sitting on their comfy chairs and having a good old time having their make believe way with make believe women – unappealing

my opinion – so, sue me

if you can

I apologize to everyone for using the word nay - I just really, really wanted to

reply to post by merka


if you're so weary - maybe this isn't for you - maybe take a break then

What about the hentai where women rape men?

what does that have to do with anything? :-)

you quoted my opinion - above

are you suggesting I'm not entitled to my opinion?

reply to post by TheColdDragon


Dear Mr. Dragon,

We will have to agree to disagree.
Having fun by way of pretending to rape a woman and her children - in a video game
- is in my opinion - a depraved and destructive activity adding nothing to a society of people who are in desperate need of healing.

I understand that not all people are the same and that you do not share my sentiment. I'm alright with that.

Spinky

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
are you suggesting I'm not entitled to my opinion?

Sure you are. Just like you're entitled not to play a game you dont like, for whatever reason you wish.

I am curious about one thing though. The argument was that you are "free" to perform this type of act in the game...

But you're not really making a moral choice here as Rapelay is scripted to behave as it does (like a movie, you cant avoid it). In many RPGs however, you can choose to be "good" or "evil" by design... is that really not worse in terms of acting out your tendancies? Moral choices are even touted as features for some games

[edit on 15-2-2009 by merka]

[edit on 15-2-2009 by merka]

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I never said ban it – and this is a perfect example of people not really reading what other people have written

Actually my post was directed at a large segment of people in the thread, not just you. My entire post whilst a response to you was a repsonse to everyone, i just clicked your post because it was the one i was reading at the time. Not something i usually do but i was feeling slightly lazy.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I will support – nay, fight to the very end for everyone’s right to their opinion – their right to say what they need to say – their right to determine what’s right for them

So you'll fight for a right to say what you want but not to make what you want, play what you want etc? Or have i misunderstood your intention there? If so sorry.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I will actually fight for your right to live in your own filth – and even to determine for yourself what is and isn’t filth

Well i don't live in filth but nice to know i have the option.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
you still need to respect my right to call it as I see it - I see these games from my point of view – not yours – there’s not any reason why I should be expected to do so

Erm i do respect having your opinion, go and check everything i have posted. The fact i support complete freedom would include your opinion.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I think you can actually see how it’s possible for me to despise these games and still be able to support your right to enjoy them – don’t you? it’s not that complicated

Hold on, i don't enjoy these games, please don't insinuate i do. Unless you were talking about the people who actually do but as you've directly responded i'm not sure what you meant.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
you’re trying to pick a fight where there is no fight

I don't think i am, i am simply voicing my opinion, as are you.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
you can fight for your right to keep them – I can fight to make them go away – may the best “man” win

I'm not fighting for my right, i don't want to keep them as i don't own or play any. I am fighting for complete freedom to do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone. So these games come under that heading. I wish they didn't exist though.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

if you just want my personal opinion – portraying a rape on film is not an issue for me

watching it might be difficult - but, that's for me to decide - not for me to decide for you

Isn't this the essence of the entire argument? If people are happy to see rape on film, well not happy but tolerant of it then why can't they tolerate these games?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
if you want me to go on and include how I feel about the games – in more detail – I’d be happy to

same thing – I’m not interested in trying to control what goes on in people minds or their private parts – even if I thought I actually could

I'm not spending any time worrying about what does or doesn't turn people on

Great. In truth i find that topic fascinating but i wouldn't stop anyone doing anything as long as they don't hurt someone. Well at least not without that persons permission (S&M etc).

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
can you prove this? I can see why you'd say it - but, you're just saying it doesn't mean a thing - I could say the opposite - it would be pointless

Actually yes i can prove it. This in no way demeans women because it is a game. In this framework of the game people can be monsters and they may walk away from their computers and treat real women with complete and total respect. You see if i play Call of Duty and go and happily blast at people this doesn't mean i place less value on human life. The game hasn't demeaned the value of human life. The exact same argument can be used for the rape game.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
like Monopoly?

Please quote entire sentences of paragraphs when available. Taking things out of context isn't quite correct. By any other game i mean it is fiction.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
it wasn't my argument - but, good plan discounting it before I've gone on to make it - saves time

Well that argument has been used a lot and i wanted to discount it again as it's been bought up way to much when it's not applicable.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
so, why are children not meant to play these games? Interested to get your perspective on this one

If you read back you'll find a post of mine dealing with this but always happy to catch someone up. Basically the reason we have age restrictions on products is because children, generally speaking are less likely to see the difference between a game and reality. Whilst they may understand it is a game their brains are not fully formed (physically and psychologically) and so damage and influence can occur. That is why children should not play games designated for 18 year olds.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
OK – so here we go – this is the part I am interested in

where do you draw the line? – and I’m actually asking you – not people in general

I answered this one already but hey i'll go again. My line is very very simple. Basically i think everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't directly harm another human being. This means you can spout racist nonsense, create these horrible rape games and do anything else, as long as you don't hurt people directly or incite others to directly hurt people.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
do you have a line? should there even be a line? where do we as a civilization draw our lines? How do we reach our conclusions?

Read above.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
we make these decisions just like this - by expressing our opinions - and fighting about it - it's about consensus - that's the whole thing

Well i can deffinately see where you are coming from. However consensus works very well for things that involve physical acts. Like real rape, real violence etc all of these have a consensus on them and need that. Anything fictional however is another story entirely and comes under the heading of free speech or freedom of thought. This should never be infringed upon.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

you could hear that from over there?

Hey my hearing is good

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

don't presume to tell me what my choices are.

I’d also prefer it if you wouldn’t assume that you’re in a position to tell me what I can or cannot find morally reprehensible, what I choose to stand up for or against - whether my moral code is or isn’t fair

I never said you can't find it offensive, please don't put those words in my mouth. YOu can find the game offensive, hell i find this game to be utterly disgusting. I don't find it offensive however and i wonder why others do. I'm not saying they don't have the right to find it offensive i'm just wondering why they find it offensive. That's a different thing.

Your moral code isn't fair if it limits the intellectual behavior of another person.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
now, do you see? You’re arguing against your own argument (and again, not mine – I never once told you what you could or couldn’t do)

I can see what you're trying to get at i just don't agree with it.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

This is just starting to sound like whining - I'm not banning anything - again - never once supported banning anything

you’re making assumptions about what my moral code really is– while simultaneously implying that your morals are superior to mine

Superior? No, just fairer. Allowing people to do whatever they wish as long as they don't harm anyone is far fairer than limiting what people can do.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

what can I say? :-)

I find the entire concept of men raping women for fun – sitting on their comfy chairs and having a good old time having their make believe way with make believe women – unappealing

my opinion – so, sue me

if you can

I apologize to everyone for using the word nay - I just really, really wanted to

Erm i also find it unappealing. Actually i struggle to find words to fully express how i feel about how disgusting i find the game. Yet i understand that i live in a supposedly free society and as long as they don't harm anyone i cannot and should not do anything about it. If i start trying to limit people who peacefully exercise their desires then i'm little better than a dictator. As for suing you, well i think our culture has already gone to far with that kind of thing

You can have your belief, i can have mine and no one should stop us having it with laws.

P.S

I like the word nay, rarely get to hear it.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by merka


why thank you merka -

I'm feeling better about this whole thing already

Originally posted by spinkyboo
reply to post by TheColdDragon

 

Dear Mr. Dragon,

We will have to agree to disagree.
Having fun by way of pretending to rape a woman and her children - in a video game
- is in my opinion - a depraved and destructive activity adding nothing to a society of people who are in desperate need of healing.

I understand that not all people are the same and that you do not share my sentiment. I'm alright with that.

Spinky

I like this reply. I can see what you're saying and i must agree that i don't think this game will bring any positives to our moral fabric. However i wonder what real world effects it will have. As someone already bought up the very low rate of rape in Japan you have to wonder if their open talk about this sort of thing has helped reduce it. Along with these games and the videos that Japan churns out on the subject maybe it gives those with disturbing thoughts an outlet.

I would love to see a large scale study on this.

Originally posted by spinkyboo

 

We will have to agree to disagree.
Having fun by way of pretending to rape a woman and her children - in a video game
- is in my opinion - a depraved and destructive activity adding nothing to a society of people who are in desperate need of healing.

I understand that not all people are the same and that you do not share my sentiment. I'm alright with that.

Spinky

I can't ask for more than that, and neither can anyone else. What I want is for people to realize that this is NOT about consensus, that in America, we are a republic and not a democracy. Republics protect the rights of each individual, not the rights of a moral majority.

This has been forgotten in the pursuit of moralizing our culture at the expense of individuals who have different beliefs than the moral majority. It also stagnates and harms large groups of people directly by refusing rights to various different types of people and discriminating. It is a wall that stands against every individual to be who they are.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Love your enemy. Do what ye will, an' it harm none. Live and let live.

None of these responses have been about protecting children, anyone who allows a child to play it are irresponsible and should be held to such.

Hurting the sentimentalities of rape victims is a non-issue, they didn't know it existed before and they went about their existences. Nobody has the right to remove something because it hurts and reminds them of something else.

It would be the same thing as coming into YOUR house and being angry that you had things that reminded me of my dead Grandfather, and demanding the police remove the items from your possession and destroy them.

As a story of my perspective.... one day, I was checking on some adult websites of my own, and noticed a link in an archive to a story-site about infant rape. INFANT RAPE.

My initial reaction was the same level of horror, anger and every other emotion that most posting here would have.

Then I bit my tongue, closed my eyes, took a deep breath and continued on my merry way. However I might think of what gets people off, it isn't my business so long as someone isn't being hurt. Stories hurt nobody except the people like me whose sensibilities find the subject horrifying.

I hate the fact that people can write and enjoy such literature, but it is their fundamental freedom to do so. And I will defend their right to enjoy their entertainment to my death, not because *I* like that sort of thing, but because I understand what taking something away from someone can do to a person; especially if that thing that was taken is only hurting the sensibilities of the civilized.

In the end though, thank you Spinkyboo for being calm and levelheaded about your feelings and opinions. I know I haven't always been in this thread.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


IR - I'm not going to bother replying to most of this - if you really didn't intend most of it for me directly - then your countering my replies to questions or accusations that you never initially intended for me - and my responding to your countering - well, we could be here all night

it would be boring

Hold on, i don't enjoy these games, please don't insinuate i do. Unless you were talking about the people who actually do but as you've directly responded i'm not sure what you meant.

you're taking it too personally - thinking more in general here

but, your defensiveness is interesting

Actually yes i can prove it. This in no way demeans women because it is a game. In this framework of the game people can be monsters and they may walk away from their computers and treat real women with complete and total respect. You see if i play Call of Duty and go and happily blast at people this doesn't mean i place less value on human life. The game hasn't demeaned the value of human life. The exact same argument can be used for the rape game.

still - not proof - just opinion

like Monopoly?

Please quote entire sentences of paragraphs when available. Taking things out of context isn't quite correct. By any other game i mean it is fiction.

OK:

The idea this gives the impression that women are to be treated badly or demeaned is just not true. It's just like any other game. Are we to say that games like Call of Duty and Doom have demeaned the value of a persons life? It's the exact same thing after all. If someone wants to bring up a case of a child committing a crime after playing a game i may just scream because children are not meant to play these games! Therefore that isn't a valid argument.

you mean - like Monopoly?

Basically the reason we have age restrictions on products is because children, generally speaking are less likely to see the difference between a game and reality. Whilst they may understand it is a game their brains are not fully formed (physically and psychologically) and so damage and influence can occur. That is why children should not play games designated for 18 year olds.

so, once a brain is fully formed - the brain of an adult then is not at all susceptible to damage or influence of any kind? All adult, fully formed brains can easily and always discern between reality and fantasy? And they always respond - react - function in this world in a responsible way?

My line is very very simple. Basically i think everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't directly harm another human being.

define harm

hell i find this game to be utterly disgusting. I don't find it offensive however and i wonder why others do.

I'm so confused - so very, very confused... :-)

Superior? No, just fairer.

:-)

Actually i struggle to find words to fully express how i feel about how disgusting i find the game. Yet i understand that i live in a supposedly free society and as long as they don't harm anyone i cannot and should not do anything about it.

and this is where we are - it's so messy

you do see - we've been agreeing all along?

As for suing you...

my only point - you can't - I'm entitled to my opinion

P.S I like the word nay, rarely get to hear it.

we should bring it back then

I think I will remind people of something quite simple, statistics.

Japan, where most video games get made, which has a high anime and video game fan population.

A country which has the most rape games. And a huge culture of playing video games.

Has one of the lowest rape crimes in the world!! It also has one of the lowest overall crime in the world!

Does this not go against some of your arguments!? Does it not prove you wrong?

Compare this to America which has one of the highest crime rates in the world!

Crime in Japan.

Rape per 100,000.
1. United States 34.20
2. England and Wales 14.69
3. France 13.38
Taiwan 8.82
South Korea 4.38
Spain 3.23
Japan 1.48

I lived in Japan for a year, and the crime rate there is VERY low. The first time I realised this, I was walking in a park with my sister and saw a camera sitting on a stump near the sidewalk. I asked her if we should take it to a lost and found, she told me no, that when someone finds something there, there leave it in a prominent place close to where they found it so that the person who lost it can go back and it will be there. This sounded crazy to me but it's true. Throughout my time there I encountered this many times-necklaces hanging on tree branches, jackets folded neatly on park benches. It was astonishing.

So to those of you who complain about video games, and how THAT is the reason why we have so much crime, then why do these statistics say you are wrong!?

It seems that those of you in the USA and the UK, need to look at your own country, because Japan seems to be doing something right, and your country seems to be doing something wrong!

Video games are to blame? lol, look deeper people!

I think this is the definition of Ironic.


[edit on 15-2-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by spinkyboo
reply to post by TheColdDragon

 

Dear Mr. Dragon,

We will have to agree to disagree.
Having fun by way of pretending to rape a woman and her children - in a video game
- is in my opinion - a depraved and destructive activity adding nothing to a society of people who are in desperate need of healing.

I understand that not all people are the same and that you do not share my sentiment. I'm alright with that.

Spinky

I like this reply. I can see what you're saying and i must agree that i don't think this game will bring any positives to our moral fabric. However i wonder what real world effects it will have. As someone already bought up the very low rate of rape in Japan you have to wonder if their open talk about this sort of thing has helped reduce it. Along with these games and the videos that Japan churns out on the subject maybe it gives those with disturbing thoughts an outlet.

I would love to see a large scale study on this.

I agree.
Any study if conducted correctly/honestly is an asset.
Indeed it would be a really interesting study.

I do find it hard to believe that this game would be responsible for the low rate of rape in Japan. But like all mere humans - I could be wrong.

Someone said that the people that play these games - are not in fact the same people who would rape someone in real life.
That would throw this theory out if true.

Someone also said that this game came out in 2006. I suppose if we were to gather rape data 3 years prior to 2006 until now - we would get a 6 year span. Then get an estimation of # of games sold... it could give us a little data.
Of course there would also be a host of other variables to contend with.
Recent changes in cultural behavior/population - reporting - reporting methods - etc.

I just have to shake my head and giggle.
To have a rape game or not have a rape game - that is the question.
It seems such an obvious answer - but clearly is not.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

IR - I'm not going to bother replying to most of this - if you really didn't intend most of it for me directly - then your countering my replies to questions or accusations that you never initially intended for me - and my responding to your countering - well, we could be here all night

Yeah i think we've gotten ourselves slightly muddled, oh well we can start again. Hi i'm IR

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

you're taking it too personally - thinking more in general here

but, your defensiveness is interesting

Sorry your words appeared like an accusation towards me as you replied to my post with quotes. At least that is how it could be very easily construed. You do see that right? As for being interesting, well if someone thinks this game is disgusting and then sees what they believe to be an accusation of them watching it then they would obviously be defensive.

No one wants to be associated with something they themselves find disgusting. Quite simple really.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
still - not proof - just opinion

Oh well we'll agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

you mean - like Monopoly?

When i say any other game i mean computer games and i would have thought it were obvious. However lets throw in board games for a second. Does Monopoly influence people to go out and be greedy if they play it as an adult? Doubtful.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

so, once a brain is fully formed - the brain of an adult then is not at all susceptible to damage or influence of any kind? All adult, fully formed brains can easily and always discern between reality and fantasy? And they always respond - react - function in this world in a responsible way?

Lets draw a line between suggestion and interactive effects of games. Suggestion, like hypnosis or simple NLP can effect an adult mind. However it cannot effect an adult to do things they wouldn't normally be willing to do. At least not according to the research i have read so far. Suggestion is an active thing, designed to force an action or thought process. A video game does not suggest anything, it only allows you to follow actions as defined by the limits of the games parameters.

Also if an adult has a mental disease then these games probably shouldn't be for them and maybe they should be packaged as such. However i don't think that would stop a mentally damaged person playing them and would just be a legal thing to cover the companies.

When i say cannot be damaged or influenced i am talking about video games, films, music in a healthy adult brain. Violent people will do violent things. Peaceful people do not suddenly become killers and rapists because they watched a film it was in. Violent people however may get obsessed with violent images and even music.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
define harm

Physically damaging a persons body without their permission. This includes sexual assaults of all kinds. Psychological abuse is also covered under this description. The kind practiced by bullies and manipulative spouses, those being only two small examples.

As for permission being granted to hurt someone, I am obviously referring to S&M and even the rape roleplays that some couples enjoy.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I'm so confused - so very, very confused... :-)

Why? You can find something disgusting but not be offended by it. It's a hard thing to view. For example if i see a toilet covered in urine i'm rather disgusted but not offended. It won't linger in my mind and make me angry.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
and this is where we are - it's so messy

you do see - we've been agreeing all along?

We may have if your position is not to try and ban it. If your position is to try and get it banned then we haven't agreed? Still i hope we have agreed because i'm really starting to get confused with how we've gone around slightly misinterpreting each others ideas. Well at least it's cleared up now

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

my only point - you can't - I'm entitled to my opinion

Yes i know that's true. I agree completely and i was commenting on the sad state our society has gotten into by trying to sue everyone over everything.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

we should bring it back then

Yeah i think i'll be trying to find a way to work it into other posts now.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


A very unusual example to use for this case of a rape game made in a country where people leave found stuff where they found it so the rightful owner can return to find it where it was lost.

I dont see the comparison equivilance here. After all, the discussion is about a rape game being pulled by Amazon, not about the crime rate in Japan vs US or UK or elsewhere.

As I stated before, one culture's morals is not necessarily to another culture's liking. What works for one may not work for another. But just because it happens to be working for the one, does not mean that it is applicable elsewhere.

This game may seem harmless upfront. But there are obvious things about it that are not exactly harmless and are of concern to not just people, but to a business as well.

The business, Amazon, deals with a large diverse client base and product base. If I was the owner of Amazon, I would take into account the ramifications and potential loss of clients and product providers had I decided to carry this particular game with its obvious highly controverisal content.

Sure Amazon carries movies of violence, rape and distruction. Any one of those could also be considered the same as this rape game. Perhaps they should. However in this case with a game, a product that most likely could end up in the wrong hands, particularly young hands, more so than the movies of similar content, should definately be seen as a potential reason for loss of business. The miniscule gains of carrying such a game compared to everything else sold on Amazon would not justify continuing to carry it and risk loosing the other business.

This game will cater to a specific, and very small crowd. The other products caters to a vast majority that severely outweigh's any possible revenue that this one highly controversial game could ever generate.

I think the decision by Amazon was not just one of morals, but one of business sense as well...and I believe they made the right choice..in both the moral implications and business aspects.




Cheers!!!

reply to post by RFBurns


RFBurns, I understand everything you say and agree to most of it. I am totally fine with amazon banning it, that is their choice!

I'm simply comparing crime rates, and those who come from the USA or UK are being hypocrites if they blame video games for rape and crime when Japan is known for video games yet Japan is also known for having low crime, and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. I think that says a lot. That we have a much bigger more deeper problem in our countries that has NOTHING to do with video games.

It's when people get put in prison for a game that it gets too far. That's all I'm arguing. The freedom and right to make your own choices.

[edit on 15-2-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

RFBurns, I understand everything you say and agree to most of it. I am totally fine with amazon banning it, that is their choice!

It's when people get put in prison for a game that it gets too far. That's all I'm arguing. The freedom and right to make your own choices.

Well I can certianly agree that someone being put into prison because of a game is definately way out there.

Im curious to know if there is an example of that on record where someone actually has been put into prison because of a game, and not because of actions based from a game.


Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by RFBurns

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

RFBurns, I understand everything you say and agree to most of it. I am totally fine with amazon banning it, that is their choice!

It's when people get put in prison for a game that it gets too far. That's all I'm arguing. The freedom and right to make your own choices.

Well I can certianly agree that someone being put into prison because of a game is definately way out there.

Im curious to know if there is an example of that on record where someone actually has been put into prison because of a game, and not because of actions based from a game.


Cheers!!!!

Hmm I don't think so, but I'll search it up

The reason I was arguing that was because of the comments of wanting to kill the creators or put them in prison, and banning the game, depending on the law, that could get people arrested for playing the game. I don't see how that would be right.

I'll search up thou.

Edit: nope can't find anything. Just saw a few things about brazil banning counter-strike game, and austrailia banning games.


[edit on 15-2-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by RFBurns
I dont see the comparison equivilance here. After all, the discussion is about a rape game being pulled by Amazon, not about the crime rate in Japan vs US or UK or elsewhere.

Arguments were made for banning the game and so arguments were made against a ban. That is why the arguments are applicable to this discussion.

Originally posted by RFBurns
As I stated before, one culture's morals is not necessarily to another culture's liking. What works for one may not work for another. But just because it happens to be working for the one, does not mean that it is applicable elsewhere.

However your morals may not be your cultures morals and so this game was sold on Amazon for those in your culture that follow a different moral set whilst still following the laws. So these people have a legal right to access such material until it becomes illegal. Of course Amazon have every right to ban anything they wish as they are a private retailer.

Originally posted by RFBurns
This game may seem harmless upfront. But there are obvious things about it that are not exactly harmless and are of concern to not just people, but to a business as well.

The business, Amazon, deals with a large diverse client base and product base. If I was the owner of Amazon, I would take into account the ramifications and potential loss of clients and product providers had I decided to carry this particular game with its obvious highly controversial content.

Ok firstly no one has been able to link any study that categorically shows a harm that this game is causing so lets quash that one. Secondly yes i agree that is why Amazon made this decision, they didn't want negative publicity and so banned it from their site. This is perfectly legal and so perfectly ok.

Originally posted by RFBurns
Sure Amazon carries movies of violence, rape and distruction. Any one of those could also be considered the same as this rape game. Perhaps they should. However in this case with a game, a product that most likely could end up in the wrong hands, particularly young hands, more so than the movies of similar content, should definately be seen as a potential reason for loss of business. The miniscule gains of carrying such a game compared to everything else sold on Amazon would not justify continuing to carry it and risk loosing the other business.

If a child can get a hold of that game they can just as easily buy all those movies and any of them will be just as damaging. That is why they are rated 18. A rape game or a slasher flick will effect kids in different ways but i doubt any of it will be positive. Arguing which does more damage i think is not going to find a clear winner. However children shouldn't be playing or seeing any of that content so the point is moot.

If you make the argument that things should be banned in case children get a hold of them then you'd end up banning kitchen knifes, household cleaning products etc. We should not ban distasteful content just because someone might get hold of it who shouldn't. In fact that is protected by freedom of speech laws.

Originally posted by RFBurns
This game will cater to a specific, and very small crowd. The other products caters to a vast majority that severely outweigh's any possible revenue that this one highly controversial game could ever generate.

I think the decision by Amazon was not just one of morals, but one of business sense as well...and I believe they made the right choice..in both the moral implications and business aspects.
Cheers!!!

Amazon don't care about morals and nor does any faceless corporation. Corporations sell you tobacco, knowing it will kill you or damage your health, yet as long as they make a profit and can present themselves in a good light they continue to sell it. Amazon don't care about you, they care about the bottom line, that's profits and appearance.

Anyway Amazons ban of it shouldn't matter because again, they are a private business and entitled to sell, or not sell whatever they wish within the law.