Tax cuts, stimulus and Republicans.

So most folk here are completely against the stimulus package and instead either advocate the "tax cuts only" solution to the current economic crises or to just simply wait it out. Some suggest we completely change the system to a "no income tax no IRS" financial system in the middle of this crises. While I constantly hear the broken records of "tax cuts" and "socialism" and "elitist Democrats" coming out from many ATSers here I dont really see any relevant evidence to support that tax cuts are the solution. Infact from my own history and my own research on the matter, along with most economists, the "tax cuts only" proposal is well ineffective and if anything it will probably make our economic crises worse.

I dont hate tax cuts and I dont love big government, however the effectiveness of tax cuts and government itself, whether it be small or big, is important to me. Over the years Iv learned that whenever a conservative candidate goes on about tax cuts, what they really mean, and what folks find out years following that administration, is that we cut your taxes now, but in the future we will have to raise the other taxes you pay and will have to lower the budget on infastructure and public services. You know what? after every "tax cut" that had come from previous Republican administrations, I find myself having to pay more back afew years later and it always seems as though investment in our schools, our roads, our hospitals, police, fireman and other public services significantly decrease,at our expense. We all loose out when we dont invest in America.

Then ofcourse there is the reality that the top one percent will recieve the bulk of those very tax cuts thats meant to stimulate the economy, you know, the ones everbody here seems to be putting a large fraction of the blame on, will recieve the most out of their tax cuts.

So my view on the "tax cuts only" proposal to escape the recession is well... a broken record. Its a tired old excuse that the republicans and conservatives/ libertarians alike have to get themselves ahead of. Tax cuts are usually successful under a stable economy, and by this I mean if we are in a good economy, because then it prolongs the good economy. The implementation of a "tax cuts only" solution in a recession only replaces debt with tax debt, that in turn forces us to take out our investments in america, such as public services, roads etc. So we loose out and we wound up paying more later. In addition with every $1
investment in infastructure, we get back $1.65

Now investment in america goes beyond the benefit of return. Investment in america assures 100,000s of jobs in construction and public services and businesses that deal around infastructure. Unlike the lone tax cut proposal, stimulating the economy by focusing on our building, our roads, our schools etc, we are preserving much needed jobs.

Pete K. Rahn, president of the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, said states desperately need money to build more roads and highways, and said $25 billion would put a lot of people to work. Mr. Rahn, who is also Missouri’s transportation secretary, said a survey of state agencies earlier this year found that there were 3,000 such projects — costing $18 billion — ready for an immediate start, should funding be available.

www.dallasnews.com...

Iv come to realize despite these facts nevertheless that the rightwing of this country have no intention of even compromising. The fact of the matter is that the "tax cut" talk is outdated and full of loopholes that the working class tax payer like myself wounds up paying more back years after. Despite the ineffiency of tax cuts Obama still made the attempt to come to some sort of bi-partisan agreement. In January he decided to add a whopping $200 billion into the stimulus package to get support and to get acting on this crises, and you know what? At that time conservatives/Republicans pony'd up and agreed to it:

Jan 08 2009: The proposed $300 billion in tax cuts were greater than expected and immediately won praise from Republicans who had criticized the previous focus on government spending. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (Rep.-Kentucky) praised the tax cuts, saying they were "the sort of thing we could have bipartisan agreement on," adding that "Republicans, by and large, think tax relief is a great way to get money to people immediately."

So what happened to that support? The Republicans decided to drop out on the last minute. This is an urgent crises, just like the $200 million a day war of lies was back in 2003, the one thats $100's of billion's in cost, that was against our constitution, that we had no real reason going to, and yet here is a package to invest in america, in a REAL american crises than Bushes oil deals, and yet the Republicans decide not to cooperate. And yet here they are, still going off about the same deal, "tax cuts". The biggest political scheme on the earth.

The fact the conservatives are making it every bit hard to get any solution, a realistic solution to this economy, a solution that stimulates the economy, because they are looking out for 2010 and 2012. Damn shame we have these so called "representitives" put partisan prospects before the nation. Its damn shame many have gotten themselves fooled into thinking these tax cuts will do them any good, do the economy any good, heck, fooled to the fact "tax cuts" are any indication the the republicans are trying to get a solution.

Paul Krugman, Ph.D in economics, nobel prize winner, said it best:

Yet the centrists did their best to make the plan weaker and worse.

One of the best features of the original plan was aid to cash-strapped state governments, which would have provided a quick boost to the economy while preserving essential services. But the centrists insisted on a $40 billion cut in that spending.

The original plan also included badly needed spending on school construction; $16 billion of that spending was cut. It included aid to the unemployed, especially help in maintaining health care — cut. Food stamps — cut. All in all, more than $80 billion was cut from the plan, with the great bulk of those cuts falling on precisely the measures that would do the most to reduce the depth and pain of this slump.

www.nytimes.com...

The way to move america out of the recession is to invest in america. To an extent minimal tax cuts may be included to help certain sectors in my opinion, but to those on the right of the spectrum, the notion of "tax cuts" as the soul solution is well outdated and as history shows, not all its cracked up to be.

Whats more interesting, in part regarding the tax cut claim, and the blame game, is that this issue seems to be pinned either on "big government liberals" or "the elite wall street bunch" even though 8 years of this mess growing was under conservative watch, or that 6 out of those 8years were republican majority houses, with their Bush tax cuts and their outdated trickled down theories.

How about the fact this mess is for the most part our fault, the citizens fault, that we overspent and helped this happen. I may have not spent beyond my means but I am among the populous who did so. 50% of this mess is the middleclass american citizens fault, and yet here are, complaining about giving wallstreet a bail out on their bad judgement and greed, while we want one. Hypocrisy.

The fact everybody is jumping onto the "hate stimulus only tax cuts" bandwagon, where the lies, costs and hypocrisies of Iraq are forgotten, where the lessons of conservative "tax cuts" are not learned, where history is ignored, and where scape goats are found on Wall street show why we are cheated easily.

[edit on 12-2-2009 by southern_Guardian]

Don't blame the Republicans...blame the NeoCons, who jumped ship from the Democratic party and brought their views with them. True Republicans like Ron Paul have a much different view than what Bush and his cronies have.

I don't think we need to increase the debt to stimulate the economy. The people that go to work fixing roads, buildings, bridges, all that does is give them work till their done. Those aren't sustainable jobs. You want to create jobs, well that's simple. Force companies that operate in America to employ Americans for their workforce. Force them to use American products in their manufacturing. Hell, force them to manufacture what they sell in America.

We have shipped so much of our wealth overseas it's not even remotely humorous anymore. The worst part is, why must I pay 1st world prices for 3rd world service? Now, if you are dealing with a truly multinational company like AT&T, let them employ Indians or Filipinos, but only to do the customer service for their own countries! If a guy in Bombay calls customer service for his cell phone, he should speak to a guy in Bangalore, or Mumbai. If I call from Oklahoma, I should speak to someone in Dallas or Madison.

If China creates a lead based paint, let the Chinese put it on their walls. If an American wants to paint, that # should be made from chemicals engineered and produced in America! Damn I'm tired of seeing "Made in China" on my "These colors don't run" t-shirts.

Forget "infrastructure" for the moment, and bring back sustainable jobs. The only way to do that is to force companies to use Americans for American products and services. Don't penalize them monetarily. They more than make up for any fines by getting cheaper and cheaper labor.

Enough, I'm done....I'm off my soapbox

To me the package is trash. There is a far better way to fix the economy. and to fix everything. Yet the government wont even try it.

1) all banks should give people a 6 month break from Payments if they were layed off. With no interest.

2) Make a new law that all bank loans from now on have a stipulation that in case of job loss, there is a one year insurance. So there back sides are covered for a year.

3) Put tariffs on all imports into this country. If its a cheap $1 item it will have a $1 tariff per item on it. Cars would have a $5000 tariff on them, and computers, and Tvs, would have a $200 each Tariff on them. All toys would have a $10 Tariff on them. Ect. Ect. ect.

4) No cash for the arts program thats just stupid that doesnt help the economy.

5) Money from Tariffs would be split 50/50 50% for the government and 50% for the economy.

6) $300 billion dollars would go to reopening old factories that have been vacant for years.

7) $500 per child would be given to families living on low income, or on unemployment. And $250 per adult in household. Only families with $20,000 or less per year.

8) Tax cuts would be for small business owners only. No taxes would have to be payed for at least 2 years. The maximum of 5 years.

9) Green energy factories would be created in the old closed factories. This will create more jobs, as well as will help with green energy.

10) Instead of putting more cash into global warming research. Create a new law that all states must have returnable bottles and cans. With Redemptions. This also will create more jobs, as well as will help the cause. It also will help the poor to make some extra cash.

If the above were used. It would save us all alot of hassle. It also would create more jobs. It would even get construction workers back to work. Since the old factories would have to be remodeled. All in all this would make for a win win situation. Yet the government is way to stupid to even think about it.

As for the big banks getting more cash I would tell them they could kiss my butt. They dont need more cash they blew what they got the first time around. Big companies would be back in profit and would be back to hiring in no time if we cracked down on the imports.

reply to post by pmbhuntress


Oh gosh, this plan would be much too sensible and beneficial to Americans, so you know they wouldn't even consider something such as this.

I think it should be obvious now that tax cuts without cutting budgets IS an upwards redistribution of wealth. By cutting the taxes and not shrinking the budget you create deficits, these deficits create an excess of dollars floating around the economy thus "dilluting" the money supply and reducing the value of your money/increasing consumable goods prices. Of course if my value is determined by owning stocks/owning large business etc., my value will increase with the inflation as the capital will still maintain relative value, all the while prices accelerate faster than wages increase, upwards redistribution if you will. This is what I like to refer to as a "market attack", using market freedom to redistribute wealth.

Second, looser point. One of the biggest problems with cutting taxes on the massively wealthy is that by cutting them they will move their new money to investments that offer the best return/risk. The problem with this is, the safest/best payout is virtually always a) other businesses already on the market, of which buying already issued stock only benefits the seller in the difference to their buying price, thus removing the money from the active economy while locking it into infrastructure, this protects against inflation and makes the investor money, but forces those who are dependent on currency, not property ownership, to suffer more inflation b) debt instruments, these are the primary place where growth has occurred in our economy...debt. To create the most tempting debt instruments, credit default swaps begin developing systems to circumvent debt leveraging mechanisms, and when the businesses collapsed they were long gone along with the money. DEBT should always be regulated, and yes, I DO mean daddy government should be saying no don't lend that, cause it DOES affect you and I even though the loan is not too us, in an economy all players ARE interconnected.

My solution would be multifold.

1. Remove all corporate protections from commonwealths, you wanna go over seas fine, a hacker rips you off, tough sh*t, your not in the US. I would put it in the constitution that dealing with foreign countries is caveat emptor.

2. Tax the large scale dividends and stock, of course you don't have to pay this tax if you move your money made out of the stock market and into direct investment in US companies. By forcing direct investment their can be less gaming of the system, more jobs etc.

Of course this is all off the top of my head and their are plenty of exemptions etc.

reply to post by midnightbrigade


In these economic times theres no way to force people to hire. Its been proven time and time a gain that even giving a employer a corperate tax cut does not get them to hire more people, they keep it under their beds.

As for the tax cuts for hiring people, that sounds like a good idea only in these economic conditions, it costs more to employ people than anything. Those tax cuts are pointless.

reply to post by southern_Guardian


Well as I see it the top 1% has doubled up their wealth in the last decade.

Have any of you? Think about it, WHO has benefited the most?

Who has suffered?

The GOP preaches top down economics and it sure got to the top now didn't it?
Our financial system was murdered by the instruments of these top 1%, The FINANCIERS... THE FAVORED group OF GOP fiscal policy

This is a case of lending many of times more capital than they had in liquidity or in ACTUALITY.

... money that was never in hand, yet on the books- MAGIC!!!.

loan 2 billion based upon

50 million you have in actual capital

Now they turn around and loan more and more and more - based upon the future earnings on that 2 billion +I.

Well if you do the math people - day 1 - thats NEGATIVE hundred and fifty million dollars. Now compound that figure and us your wildest imagination please.

Frankly thats a load of crap, sadly thats how it works...

Then there are the little things the industry does to make you pay more.

Update the PAYSITE and crash the telesystem on the "1st" so YOU have to pay overages when you "DON'T pay on time".

Then you have to default to the maximum APR because you WERE LATE IN PAYMENT.

HAVE you ever experienced this? - "

THE NEXT AVAILABLE CUSTOMER SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE WILL BE WITH YOU IN - FIF-T - FIVE minutes..." ( thats the sound of creative revenue going to work :lol


This is one of the most common of the many practices... BTW they have whole departments dedicated to ripping you off like this!


Now, many of you want to reward this intitution by letting the practice go completely un monitored?

We just got finished getting robbed blind and you are in turn saying

- GOPers - "YOU only robbed us BOFA because you were being regulated"-

WTF????

The robbery had everything to do with greed and I can only imagine if you GOPers had your way of "free market".

Do you think a deregulated system would have stopped these people in any way?


I suggest we would be penny less right now!
Christ, they could not even follow the rules that were favorable to THEM in the first place!

Like I said,,, you guys are saying MORE???

NOT only do you guys want to give more room to cheat, but you want to give more tax cuts to these folks who helped finance this robbery?

Like I said this has been one of the greatest decades for the top 1% in earnings -

SO based on TRICKLE DOWN THEORY,

Why are we losing 600,000 jobs a month?
Why do we have the worst deficit in WORLD HISTORY?

It simple as putting A,B,C and D together.

GOP
BUSH
Tax CUTS for 1%
+ looking the other way ala free market

NO thank you!

Those who control the money control everything - I would rather be able to effect a vote.














[edit on 13-2-2009 by mental modulator]

[edit on 13-2-2009 by mental modulator]