How hard to find SSBN

you still need to think it through ..alot.....no matter what they tell you ..crew memebers too.

Have you ever actually heard a submarine "ping" .?? Physically ..with your own ears...not a recording but an actual transmission??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Go ahead. Tell me where I'm wrong. Please.

for reasons of security ..I'm not going to specifically tell you where you are wrong..I merely ask if you have ever actually heard a sonar "ping" with your own ears. Not a recording ..not in movies...but actually... the real deal??

I am saying think it through ..go back and read the previous posts on this topic...Think ..its right in front of you. Daily!!! Every day!!! If and when it finally dawns on you ...its like Wow!!!! This is a totall different ball game..



Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by ORIEguy

The unclassified periscope videos? Just because they're unclassified doesn't mean they get put out for the American public to see. Quite honestly, it wasn't very exciting, for most of it all you see is ships just sailing by, Backfires flying low, etc. Not exactly high quality PR.

Also, it was at a briefing for USN midshipmen, where the sub community was trying to "sell" their community to future officers. Not just Dick or Jan on the Internet.

Maybe you could make a FOIA request though.

Well whatever is questionable is subject to verification.

Good reading that Orangetom. Would love to hear more when you can spare the time....

Originally posted by Sandman11
If you seriously question the superiority of the US (and western) submarine warfare technology during the cold war, and at least equality since the cold war, then you must seek help immeadiatly.

I really am.... If your willing to pay for the help ( i can give you account number asap) then i am all for it and will get as much as you can afford to pay for.

You are not in touch with reality, and grasping denial in futility.

Grasping denial in futility! Well if your anywhere near that creative when it comes to your choice of sources i can well understand why you believe what you do! This is not our first encounter so you know i can source my claims better than you ever even attempted to.

Stellar

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by ORIEguy

The unclassified periscope videos? Just because they're unclassified doesn't mean they get put out for the American public to see. Quite honestly, it wasn't very exciting, for most of it all you see is ships just sailing by, Backfires flying low, etc. Not exactly high quality PR.

Also, it was at a briefing for USN midshipmen, where the sub community was trying to "sell" their community to future officers. Not just Dick or Jan on the Internet.

Maybe you could make a FOIA request though.

Well whatever is questionable is subject to verification.

Indeed it is. Make a FOIA request.

If it works out, let us know. I've got a lot of other interesting videos I've stored in the databanks inside my head, which I'd like to put on my computer.

PS- You must be the 2nd person I've encountered here who didn't immediately belive everything they read on the Internet.

Well, firstly until I did a Google on FOIA I didn't know what it was.
And now before you wonder WHY I didn't know about it, I'll clear something out. Incase of any misconceptions, I am not American. Neither do I stay in the US. I stay actually right about on the other side of the Planet, in India. Actually in a city/town called Pune.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Well, firstly until I did a Google on FOIA I didn't know what it was.
And now before you wonder WHY I didn't know about it, I'll clear something out. Incase of any misconceptions, I am not American. Neither do I stay in the US. I stay actually right about on the other side of the Planet, in India. Actually in a city/town called Pune.

Well then...your English is pretty DARNED good.

Here is another story for you..plus some info..

Submarines are most vulnurable in like manner to airplanes when surfacing or diving. In aircraft it is takeoff or landing. This is when most accidents take place.

A chief of the watch when making his rounds in the middle of the night told me and my mate a eerie story which happened on a boat he had served on years before.
When they came to periscope depth ..one of the jobs of the officers is to make a peroscope sweep of the surface conditions and contacts. When making the visual sweep ..the officer called out ..emergency dive...now.!!! When they had leveled out ...at sufficient depth ..and everyone caught their breath...he said all he could see was the ....Tex... of a Texaco tanker...that was way to close. It is a bit eerie..when you look in the eyes one of these olde chiefs ripping off a story off like that and you know they are not feeding you a line of bull. They rip them off so naturally and easily...but you know at the time the backside pucker factor was through the roof. These guys have no illusions about the risks.

Here is a intresting piece of information..about that area of the ocean..outside of New York where that collision occured between the boomer and the attack boat.
If you look at a chart of soundings ..depth to the bottom ..outside of New London, Connecticut..what you see is that once you get out of the harbors the depth to the bottom of the ocean increases rapidly. This means you dont have to go far out of the harbor to take a submarine down. This means that you can go out or return on the surface or most of the way back submerged.
This is very different from here off the Chesapeake Bay where the soundings are very different ...you have to go out a long way before you can safely take a boat down. You must return on the surface way out ..before entering the harbor.
Though they didnt say this openly in the article it is a peculearity I know about that area. No doubt this contributed to the accident. It might have been different if both had been on the surface and had surface search radar operating.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Popeyes post on page 6 of this thread.

Popeye posts:

"Quietest of all is the new all electric drive shaft "

An electric drive shaft is not a new invention. It has been around that I know of for over 40 years.

I have seen a electric motor wound on a propellor shaft. A clutch is disengaged and the electric motor drives the shaft... not a steam turbine. When you need speed the clutch is re engaged and the electric motor dis engaged and the steam turbines are brought back on line.

This is nothing new. What may be new is the newer type of motor windings and more effecient bearing technology of today.

no doubt this can be a quiet setup.

Thanks,
Orangetom

There was a saying during the cold war that whenever Russian admirals wanted to know where their subs were, they will ask where the P3 Orion have been patrolling...

Also this is something I heard on the Discovery Channel from an Ohio Class sub, captain. That in the history of that sub, they had never been found by an enemy patrol...

Originally posted by carcharodon
Also this is something I heard on the Discovery Channel from an Ohio Class sub, captain. That in the history of that sub, they had never been found by an enemy patrol...

Thats a mighty tall claim.. How long's the Ohio Class been in service?

This thread isn't about guns! Make your own thread about it if you must.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by devilwasp
yeah i suppose but a nuclear sub makes much more noise than the electric

Right, and do you know why that is?

Do you know why SSBN's radiate less noise than SSN's?

yes because a nuclear reactor requires cooling and the coolent needs to be pumped which creates noise

a diesel sub would only require the sound of the pistons being fired and varios gers and such beiong turned . but if it went to battery then all they would hear is the gears and such

Wrong, Ohio class subs, Virginia class subs, and Seawolf subs all can use natural circulation, so, on low power settings, you can just turn the pumps off.

Also, I have heard the US Navy is thinking about having the steam turbines generature electricity that then goes to Electric engines that power the shaft.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Here is another story for you..plus some info..

Submarines are most vulnurable in like manner to airplanes when surfacing or diving. In aircraft it is takeoff or landing. This is when most accidents take place.

A chief of the watch when making his rounds in the middle of the night told me and my mate a eerie story which happened on a boat he had served on years before.
When they came to periscope depth ..one of the jobs of the officers is to make a peroscope sweep of the surface conditions and contacts. When making the visual sweep ..the officer called out ..emergency dive...now.!!! When they had leveled out ...at sufficient depth ..and everyone caught their breath...he said all he could see was the ....Tex... of a Texaco tanker...that was way to close. It is a bit eerie..when you look in the eyes one of these olde chiefs ripping off a story off like that and you know they are not feeding you a line of bull. They rip them off so naturally and easily...but you know at the time the backside pucker factor was through the roof. These guys have no illusions about the risks.


Thanks,
Orangetom

I don't think that is true, don't they raise a periscope to check for any shipping?

Most cold war submarine captains believed they had superior submarines than the Soviet Navy, but inferior weapons. A common complaint in the cold war was the lack of genuine improvement in weapons technology. VLS has since changed this perception within the submarine fleet.

Today the only countries that could find and track an Ohio class is France, UK, and Russia, and that is assuming they even try. Doctrine for Ohio's is to run deep and slow, and stay deep and slow. The patrol locations are usually so far off commercial traffic lanes that the SSBN is litterally hundreds if not thousands of miles from the closest vessel. At 6 knots, the Seawolf, Virginia, and Ohio classes are as quiet as any AIP submarine at 6 knots.

A few other things from earlier in this thread.

The US Navy enjoyed superiority underwater during the cold war, the problem for the US Navy wasn't the attack submarine fleet, it was the ability of the surface fleet to track and hunt enemy submarines.

The 1998 collision is a good reminder of how important good training is. It isn't an accident that the US Military had more people die from 1980-2000 in many cases than have died on a per year basis during the Bush administration, and Bush is fighting a war. Those kind of statistical facts don't get reported much, but in 1984 over 10,000 military people died in training accidents, where as last year, even with 2 wars, less than 4000 military servicemen despite much higher training cycles.

The electric submarine has already been tried by the US Navy. In the Early models they were quiet alright ..they just couldnt get up the speed they wanted as compared to nuclear boats. In these early models the main engine was electric and the reactor produced steam to run turbine generators. They were plenty quiet as I said but just couldnt get up the speed advantage enjoyed by nuclear boats.

WHat new motor and bearing technonlogy bodes for this type of change who knows ...advances in propellor/propulsor design also. Something or an area you might want to look up on the web if anything of intrest is available. I imagine much of practical application in this arena is classified...as is most things of any specifics about these boats.

Also ..I have heard this from many crew memebers...that surfacing and diving is the most perilous times for boats. They know where objects are around them ..and the bearings but not precise distances without going active on the sonar...something boats are very reluctant to do. Several boats have had this problem.

The indicent of the USS Greenville surfacing under that Japanese fishing training trawler..is not the first.
An older class Polaris boat with the 16 missle tubes surfaced underneath a Japaneses assembly line type trawler..the big ones and punched a hole in her hull...likewise..sinking it. This was years ago. The boomer dived and left the area. She cannot sit still with Nuclear weapons on board ..nor can she take on foreign nationals with such a weapons load out. This incident happened many years ago..over 20 years ago. This is what we were talking about when the chief of the watch spoke up and told us this information...about how blind and dangerous it was surfacing and diving till they get to patrol depths. We were standing around BSing in the control room of a boomer undergoing overhaul about the news we had heard on the radio that day and the chief overheard us a chimed in with that story about the TEX on the Texaco tanker.

Hope this helps.

Take care....,
Orangetom

WOW. evening all. nice stuff in this thread, but let me clarify a few things.

Active Sonar: Is used to gain info on on any reflective body in the ocean. Be it a sub.ship or in rare occasions a whale if it is in the area. Active sonar works by sending out a sound wave. now say it takes 20 secs for it to reach a target. Well it takes 20 secs for a return to show up on display. total=40secs...the first 20 secs the target vessel knows he has been pinged and on what bearing. Now these are very loose #'s w.o getting to techincal..All the info u want on sonar can be found on the internet.

Passive Sonar: Is a listening only sonar used to detect contacts at the expense of the noises they produce in the water. Ships of course, civialian make tons of noise and on good water they can be detacted further than u think.Subs of course can be detected passive

Now, as for the orginal question: Are SSBN's really that quiet?
Yes, and no. The ability to be quiet is 2 fold. the ambient conditions of the water u are in. If, u are quieter than the ocean background u are quiet. Now, the other is how quiet is ur sub. Boomers, or SSBN's. aren;t that quiet. They are usually escorted or were in cold war times..because of their value..ICBM's..

OHIO class SSBN's are under going refits to make a new class SSGN..which carry tomahawks and harpoons.

Now, for the quietest sub it is the KILO and Improved KILO...due to them being desiel-elec boats...on batteries even the USN cant detect them with any accuracy..See the news post on the USN's rimpac excerise going on now. And u will see it is a concern. China was kilo's, as does iran, and few others.
Lucky for us they they are mainly littoral water boats..meaning coastal defense roles.

Now all this info is common knowledge that can be located on the internet, just do alittle searching. or i could point u

have a great day

Kilo ..diesel electric...lol lol..funny...very funny...

Totally new revelation..

You do know how nuclear submarines operate under way..dont you ...not what is on the web..but what is not on the web...Right????

Orangetom

Originally posted by Zaphod58
[In the future I'll remember that we can only use INTERNET sources, and stay away from something that might require actual work or research.

[edit on 2/2/2006 by Zaphod58]

Just a note, but if a poster comes from a country that is currently (such as China) or formerly (such as Russia) a "controlled society", they may not have many actual books available to them, and thus might be forced to rely soley on the internet for their information!

Not easy for the sub guys, I know one of them hes in his 30s now, completly crazy, think about it they have drills quite often where they need to get ready to launch a nuke they dont know its practice until they litterlly are ready to push the button, living underwater in a small metal sub and thinking ur ganna take out the world every so often would drive any of us crazy i think.