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Couple wrongly accused of abusing their baby cannot have their children back because it is too late

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posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 12:58 AM
There's more going on here than anyone in authority is willing to admit. Sounds like there's an underlying reason the kids aren't being returned to their biological parents. Perhaps the biological parents hold some counterrevolutionary beliefs? Perhaps TPTB feel that the kids will be better off with parents who will raise them to be good little socialists? Probably gonna be seeing a lot more of this sort of thing going on.


posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 02:23 AM
It could just be that the state does not want to give back the federal money they got for their successful placement if the children were adopted out.
I wonder what kind of civil suit could come out of this though?

I think the poster was being sarcastic when they said children were for sure safer with foster parents.

See, that's the real lie. That's the thing no one talks about in the news. The statistics. Children are more likely to be abused IN foster care.

This is, indeed, a hot button issue for me. The parents of Jackson Bortz were friends of mine. I will never forgive DFCS for coming into the hospital unit and interrupting them by telling them they were taking their older child as they were trying to say goodbye to their dying baby, who had just been taken off life support.

I have never directly seen such lack of compassion or humanity in all my life.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 03:24 AM

Originally posted by Heike

Originally posted by Logarock
In this case the decision tears at the foundation of civilization.

How could I be so silly? You're right, of course.

Human civilization and society are built on a foundation of children being another pair of hands to work, and/or the property of their parents who could do anything they wanted with or to them, up to and including killing them.

Yeah, let's go back to that. Much better. Let's repeal the child labor laws while we're at it; that should help the economy.

When I was a kid my mother tried to kill me. I went to the police with evidence on my body. They gave me milk and cookies and called my parents to come get me. I'm sure you think they did the right thing. After all, she was my mother.

That is horrible. And I am sorry that happened to you, but you do realize that that is not typical... right?

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder...

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 04:13 AM
"If anyone is selfish here, it's the parents who want the kids regardless because it's what THEY want, not the people who are concerned about what's best for the kids."

And why aren't the parents in this situation the people who are concerned about what's best for the kids? Just because blood isn't magical, doesn't mean it doesn't effect certain characteristics in children, making them somewhat like their parents, in certain aspects, and more able to adapt to. You can't stereotype someone based on your own experience; just because some parents are sick, twisted beings, that really shouldn't have come into existence, doesnt make all, or most the same way. And just to be clear, I'm all for adoption. I convinced my best firend not to go back to his # father -whom left him soon after birth, and finally decided to call, after 11 years- or his crack head mother -whom stole his money to get a rock- and he's much better off now (It's strange that she still calls him. Even after she goes on a benge, and dumps him. Maybe it's magic that makes her want to stay in touch with her spawn. It's probably the money she steals though) . And to boot his fauster parents were probably the nicest people I've ever met in my life.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 04:46 AM
This is disgusting. This has got to be the worst story I've read all week. I can't bgin to imagine being the child in this situation... But let me play Devil's advocate here, and ask: Imagine you were the "new" parents? Love isn't a bond formed through blood... it's a paternal bond -

Fathers find many ways to bond with their children, such as soothing, consoling, feeding (expressed breast milk, infant formula, or baby food), changing diapers, bathing, dressing, playing, and cuddling. Carrying the infant in a sling or backpack or pushing him or her in a baby transport can build the bond, as can participating in the baby's bedtime routine.

What if you found out your parents weren't your "real" biological parents? Wouldn't you want to keep a relationship with both families?

[edit on 12-2-2009 by IlluminatiKarate]

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 05:16 AM
To me, there's real damage being overlooked here - the damage to society. Good parents walking around terrified of the government taking their kids, without reason, and not returning them.

I mean, if I am painted blue, and you are painted blue, and I see you get your heart cut out, and I'm standing there with the high priest in front of me...and I know he's got the power to push me down on that rock...and I know he's got a knife...ya know?

It is chilling to those parents that are not even related to this case, to parents doing the best they can every day, but maybe they've lost their job, or their power might get cut off, or they are losing their home...will they take the kids if I don't have a home? What if it takes me a while to get another one?

See? It is chilling.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 06:44 AM
The judges should be made to endure public ridicule, scorn and humiliation for their willful ignorance.....then turfed from the bench for the turds they are.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 07:14 AM
reply to post by DarkPassenger

comming from a broken home and a former child cared for be the crown , I know these children would want to go back to there REAL parents. Why do you think adopted children serch for there real parents when there old enough.
P.S. i wouldn't let the Crown take care of my dog let alone rule the nations.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 08:01 AM
reply to post by darkelf

Totally agree. Everything is owned by the state, and yet nobody is taking responsibilty for the hideous miscarriage of justice and nobody has the balls to overturn the ruling. Why are we letting them get away with this?

This couple need a nationwide campaign setting up for them.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 08:06 AM
reply to post by sy.gunson

adoptive parent here. Did I steal this child? NO. My child came to me thru the foster system at 2 months old with a broken arm and 4 broken ribs. Trust me almost anywhere would of been better for my adopted child then with his birth parents.

Do gooder? No I don't consider myself a do gooder how about someone who cares about others especially those to young or to fragile no matter what the age to fend for themselves.

My child knows his kin. He's known from day one he's adopted. I'm honest with my child. Does he know the circumstances of why he was taken from his natural parents? No he's to young to know all of that. He's asked what I tell him is we all make mistakes when we are young hopefully as we grow we change. Do not look back at someones past and think they can't change.

Do you think they just go to a list of people that put their name on a paper wanting a child. Do you believe thats all there is to becoming an adoptive parent? No you go thru tests medical exams, phsycological testing, your back ground is checked all the way back to forever, your credit is checked, your income is checked, the interaction between you and the child is watched and observed. How the child takes to you is watched closely, the condition of your home is gone over. Adoptive parents are put under a microscope birth parents don't have to go thru. All they have to do is hop in the sack with someone and that makes them owner of a child.

Yes I have natural children also and grandchildren. So yes I know the bond between both natural children and adoptive children. Both are just as strong. Sometimes I think the bond with the adopted child is stronger because you made the choice you fought for that choice..and you are determined you will make that childs life better.

I have also seen where there is no bond between the natural parents. Have you been out and watched the way parents treat children that are theirs lately? Or the child treats the parent? Look at the world around you see the lack of compassion in people..see the self centeredness in people. How can people like that be a better parent than someone that has those qualities which as a society we seem to be lacking in large quanties?

I don't talk my childs biological parents down. It's his choice if he wants to interact with them or not. Their screw up was my blessing so how can I talk them down. My son is secure in my love for him and I am in his love for me.

Have you ever thought maybe these children would rather stay with their adoptive parents? I know bet you think that would be impossible. My child spends time with his but he sure don't want to live with them. He's been that way since he was young. My son also has 2 half brothers he knows and enjoys knowing he's part of a larger family but to live with them no he wants no part of that.

You also seem to forget personal responsibility with the parents. Even if the only cause for removeal was a bad doctors opinion (which I highly doubt is the only reason) they still should of seen their child wasn't getting any better and acted. Usually they don't take all the children unless they feel all the children are in danger.

The system is both good and bad..when its bad yes it should be changed. But also it's saved many more lives than we'll ever know. Unless you know all the facts you really can't say now can you?

Just because you pass on dna to a child does not mean you are the best thing for them. There's more to us than just a body and whats inside of that body is what really makes a parent.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Heike
"Blood is thicker than water." There's another one. Yes, that's true, but what exactly does it mean? Do the adoptive parents have water running through their veins instead of blood? Don't think so. Do adoptive parents love their children any less because they aren't "their blood?" You can ask 'em, but be prepared for a fight if you do.

What it means to me is that genetic links between people can be far stronger than that of non-relatives.

I still believe we, as humans, have that old thing called animal instinct that ties us to those in our families.

When these kids were removed from their natural parents, those links weren't cut, didn't dissappear and will not just be forgotten and they cannot be replaced by any surrogate parent.

The "blood" in our veins carries with it part of every single relative before us, that's why it's "thicker" than the "water" of non-relatives imo.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 08:24 AM

Originally posted by napayshni57
reply to post by sy.gunson

adoptive parent here. Did I steal this child? NO. My child came to me thru the foster system at 2 months old with a broken arm and 4 broken ribs. Trust me almost anywhere would of been better for my adopted child then with his birth parents.

Do gooder? No I don't consider myself a do gooder how about someone who cares about others especially those to young or to fragile no matter what the age to fend for themselves.

Nobody is going to argue with you here. But on a case by case basis the messed up situations cannot be used to perpetuate a madness like what has happened in the above. There has to be some balance and understanding.

Certainly the little people need help from messed up parents. Around here there have been about 15 small children slain over the past several years by parents, mostly boyfriends. Still we must keep our heads and be sure not to be agents of abuse on innocent families. Lets keep our heads in this brutal war against this strange phenomena in the land.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Heike
What's so great about kin anyway? I sought out my biological father when I was 18 in pursuit of this myth. Want to know what he did? He tried to seduce me, that's what. There's some magic for you.

That explains a lot of your comments and beliefs here.

Don't assume everyone else is to blame for what one person (in you past) did to you.

I too "fell out" big time with my father around 20 years ago but I don't measure the world around me for what he did back then.

We are 6.5 Billion individuals.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 08:33 AM

Originally posted by joeofthemountain
reply to post by Jim Scott

Jim there is no way to "fix" this putrid system. History will reassert itself, and soon. The end is near for the so-called United States of America. We are under judgment - the kind some CPS "referee" or DA could not recognize if their souls depended on it.


Great post.

Its amazing how those heading for judgment seem to walk faster and faster toward it the closer it gets finally plunging themselves into the fury.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 08:44 AM
reply to post by nerbot

I have a relative that was 50 when she found out as a baby she had been adopted. Her parents had some friends that would come over all of her life when she was young. She didn't care for the people or any of their kids all that time. She thought they were all crazy and couldn't figure out why her parents were friends with these people. Why they had them in their lifes and why she had to put up with them. She never could understand why on her birthday and holidays they always brought her presents. After her adopted parents died and she was married with grown kids of her own she found out these people that she didn't like were her biological parents. She went thru years of therapy constantly worried that their craziness was going to show up in her and her children and grandchildren. She also felt betrayed by everyone that knew for not telling her she was adopted and these people were her parents.

That old saying we can pick our friends but not our family has a reason for it.

Even animal instincts can go bad. Perhaps thats why some parents aren't good parents they're missing something. You think thats why some women sell their babies?

I do think adopted kids have the right to know they are adopted. If handled right its not a problem. I do also think they have a right to get to know their biological parents if the parents want to know them. I do think the child should be the one to decide if they want their biological parents in their lives.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 09:12 AM
This post is to Heike. I understand you yourself had some bad experiences. However your experience is not one of the majority of parents in the world. We can understand your opinion, however opinions are like buttholes, everyone has them and they all stink. In this case, a severe injustic was done to the parents. And in this case the parents DO have an unalienable right, a HUMAN right to raise their own children. If someone were to take my children away on unfounded grounds, I would put my life on the line to get them back, I would kill to protect them. It goes to a primevil level of protection that all animals have. Look at bear cubs, a mother WILL kill to protect her children. What the legal system has done to these kids and parents is incomprehensible and the people responsible for this outrage should be dealt a most severe punishment. The judge in this case in my opinion should be sentenced to death.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 09:58 AM
I seriously considered getting out the 2x4 for this thread, but regretfully put it back. It's obvious that some of you just aren't going to get it no matter what I hit you over the head with.

What I'm really trying to do is get you to THINK. Evaluate the situation. Consider things from all angles. 90% of you knee-jerked one way or the other. Any opinion or belief that uses words like "always, never, all, none" (in other words, absolutes) is by nature flawed and fairly useless.

In nature, and in human beings, there are no absolutes.

Many biological parents love their children, but some don't. Some biological parents love their children but, despite good intentions, just aren't capable of taking care of them properly. Some foster parents do it for the money. Many foster parents, however, do it because they love kids and want to help them. Most adoptive parents love their kids, and take great care of them. A few may not, although I've not personally seen a case. Stereotypes, generalities, and cliches like "blood is thicker than water" are the mentally lazy person's way to avoid THINKING. Or, in the case of some people, stereotypes and entrenched beliefs protect them from absorbing new ideas and having to deal with those.

After my mother-in-law passed, my husband (at age 53 or so) discovered that he has an older half-brother who'd been put up for adoption when their mother was a teenager. She had successfully kept the secret from everyone all those years. It was quite a shock when half-brother contacted the family, unfortunately just months too late to meet his mother. Half-brother was pleased to meet his half-siblings and brought his wife and daughter to meet us all, but still considers his adoptive parents to be his "real" family; the main reason he was searching for his mother was to get some medical history for issues with his daughter.

All I'm really trying to get anyone to see here is this:


There is no one answer that is always right.

Every situation merits its own investigation and conclusions. Biological parents are not always best, foster parents are not always careless or neglectful, and biological fathers are guilty of incest just as (or more) often as stepfathers.

You can't (or shouldn't) just take any case at face value and spout your standard knee-jerk "children are always better off with their natural parents" response. There are plenty of cases, including mine, which prove that children are NOT always better off with their natural parents.

Genetics and "blood" may provide some sort of similarity or bond, but time and love build bonds which are just as strong, if not stronger in some cases. There are plenty of adopted mothers out there who would die for their children, and some biological mothers who've killed theirs.

There's no easy answer and applying a generalization is like putting a Mickey Mouse bandaid on a severed limb. It just won't cover it.


And this, in my opinion, is what's wrong with the system too. We've gone from having no protection at all for abused/neglected children to having too much. There has to be a happy medium, a middle road in there somewhere which allows for getting children out of truly abusive situations but doesn't terrorize or persecute good parents who occasionally make a mistake.

Hard and fast rules, inflexible beliefs, and laws forcing teachers and health care professionals to report every bruise (some kids DO fall off their bikes, you know) are making the "system" too rigid. As I said before, absolutes can't successfully be applied to human beings, or children and parents.

When I was a kid, parents could literally get away with murder - or at least attempted murder. Today they're in trouble of someone sees them apply a well-deserved swat to a diaper-padded butt in public.

If we're ever going to "fix," this, we must learn to evaluate each situation independently of others and apply common sense and a little compassion instead of a rule book. But before the system can change, we the public have to change first, because eventually public opinion will sway the system. So - first WE stop applying band-aid generalizations to situations like this and actually THINK before we give an opinion, and down the road perhaps the "system" will begin to apply reason, logic, common sense, and compassion.

And by the way, there's a beneficial side effect: When you use your brain instead of your reflexes, you don't get angry near as often.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 10:12 AM
reply to post by Heike

Your not wrong in what your saying Heike, there are many cases where the bio parents are guilty of hurting their kids. But we can`t just roll all of these cases into a ball and say they are all the same, they are not all the same. When I posted my opinion, I was placing myself in the parents shoes. I love my kids with all of my being, and would fight to keep them no matter what. That saying, I am not guilty of hurting my kids in any way. Yes, some kids ARE better off with someone else when they are being hurt by the parents, and those parents should be put through the wringer when that happens. And when they are not guilty, they should be reunited with their kids.

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 10:22 AM

Originally posted by FiatLux
reply to [url=
... cases into a ball and say they are all the same, they are not all the same.

Exactly! That was my point. They are not all the same, and they can't all be handled the same.

In this case, they really shouldn't just give the kids back willy-nilly without assessing the effect that may have on the children. That's all Skeppy and I have been saying; don't *automatically* say "give them back!" without looking into it a bit. It's possible that, at this point, taking the kids out of their adoptive homes and giving them back to the parents will do more harm than good. Or maybe not. In any case, no decision should have been made without some serious investigation and consideration.

And, just for fun, let's look at another side of this issue. If these children are given back to their parents now, what does this do to people who want to adopt children? Would hundreds or thousands more kids be trapped in foster care for life because people won't want to adopt for fear of having their adopted kids taken away from them if the parents or the courts change their mind?

posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 10:22 AM
If this case in the united kingdom then under the freedom of information act someone can apply for a transcript and other court details then we can name and shame the people involved in this miscarriage of justice this is clearly not acceptable.

as for the children shouldnt they be slowly introduced to their natural parents after all if they didnt do anything wrong and they are the right biological parents how can you explian to the children that you stopped them seeing living with their bilogical parents because of a miscarriage of justice. im sorry but no good can come of this, i fully respect foster parents and have a great respect for what they do but ask yourself if you were the kid in that situation what would you want, i perosnally would have wanted the chance to live with my birth parents if they were fit and didnt do anything wrong. just imagine thier grief of not seing them grow up and not seing them going to prom and not seing their first day at school etc can you say no to them now?

[edit on 12-2-2009 by Juksey]

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