and you call yourself a patriot???????????

That is the most lucid post I have seen on this topic. Well said WBT.

You people that follow your leader are crazy.
They tried.They had 3 years of effort,10 years of planning,1 more year of 'pass the buck' and we have many years of embarassment,debt and trying to forget the experiment
(putting the retarded son of a former president in office).
Its over,those guys have screwed the pooch so bad on this one. They are never going to get the oil. They all have more money but not a one has any respect. Not even Colin Powell, and he went in 3 years ago respected. In 3 years the man is reduced to maybe judge Ito status. Nothing but a late night talk show joke.

It is unwise to obey the State, when you do not control it. To obey, is to be enslaved.

Great argument BeingWatchedByThem.
Few questions:
You employed?
You paying federal and state taxes?
You have loans and bills to pay?
Own a home?
Own a car?
Pay personal property taxes?
Etc.

Guess what?
You are a 'slave' to the system (State) and are, as you have mentioned and I quoted above, "enslaved" and "owned"?


seekerof

Originally posted by intrepid
That is the most lucid post I have seen on this topic. Well said WBT.

I second that. Nationlism and militarism gone overboard is a sure sign of trouble.

Also, so what is the original post in this thread saying? Shut up and support the president no matter what? No dissent allowed?
I'm getting really fed up with this crap. This "god bless the USA", shut up un support da president, love it or leave it crap. Something needs to change....one way or another.

Seekkerof, I knew you would be watching this one, but you have to admit that was a well thought out post.

Originally posted by omega1
I'm sick of anti-bush talk. Guess what..... we are in a war..... so if you know what is best for this country and for it's people, then support your president at a time like this.............

That is rediculous. Why should people against the war all of a sudden take up for the president when they think it is wrong?

this war will turn into a vietnam if we withdraw....... because every single family that was pro us will be slaughtered.............. If you value life, im talkin both American and Iraqi.... then you better support bush. All the more cr ap you talk about him... the more hope you give for the terrorists that hate you..

Idiocy at it's best. Just to clarify. Are you saying that by disagreeing with Bush, we somehow will create terrorism?

I am no jingoist.... but i believe what we start in iraq has to be finished..... and let me tell you kerry aint the man to do it.

I'll agree with you there, but for many more reasons than just the war. I can't stand almost all of Kerry's platform, not to mention all the fun little things I'm sure he'll think up should he be elected.

There is nothing patriotic about supporting the president. This "Patriot or terrorist" # is really getting old from you guys, and I should know, because I am probably more conservative than you.

I would seriously rethink your definition of patriot if I were you.

Originally posted by Seekerof

It is unwise to obey the State, when you do not control it. To obey, is to be enslaved.

Great argument BeingWatchedByThem.

Few questions:
Note: questions were answered, but removed about 24 hours later, to be honest I felt a little naked.

Guess what?
You are a 'slave' to the system (State) and are, as you have mentioned and I quoted above, "enslaved" and "owned"?

I realize that, that is why I pray for freedom from these shackles.

P.s. thanks for the reply and check out.

The "Help America Vote Act of 2002" Hoax
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I hope it will open eyes that are blind of these sly tactics.

seekerof

[Edited on 4-14-2004 by BeingWatchedByThem]

Here are a few things to think about.

1) There will never be a goverment in iraq put in place that can not be taken out with a flying camel full of nitro. If the war mongers out there think that as we leave all will be merry all i can say is have the last plane look out the window as those guys take out the main officials...Who is kidding who here they will run iraq in the end the way they want to.

OH wait we can always sell them high tech protection for OIL !!!!

What a bunch of BS

Reminds me of a old song
Kill them off take their land and go there for vacation.

War no matter which way you look at it is outright stupid. You do have to protect yourself when necessary but with this type of global mentality lets hope we maintain the biggest gun if not we might get a taste of how some other country thinks that the US should be run. It all sounds like a no win situation to me.

For those that have not been in a war, I am against it, what changed my mind is when i saw my older brothers friend after he came back from viet-nam, I was 16 at the time and we were at a cookout beside a horsetrack, he had a flashback, ran through a barbwire fence trying to get away from whatever, well he didnt make it through. ask him one day when you see him in the great beyond if he thought it was all worth it.

Originally posted by OldSeer
Here are a few things to think about.

1) There will never be a goverment in iraq put in place that can not be taken out with a flying camel full of nitro. OH wait we can always sell them high tech protection for OIL !!!!

Is the US any better? 3 planes brought us to our knees.

Give the Iraqis a break they're no better or worse then we are. To assume they're less because we're...Well' I'm going to quote Woodrow Wilson (a dem, by the way) We're "helping our little brown friends" is extreamly racist, classist, and eletist. Let's face it, America is tops (not #1, I deleted that) in standard of living, and for some reason, a lot of us have started to believe that those more impovershed then us aren't smart or good enough for freedom.

This mentality is no better then thinking that the blacks are supposed to be slaves, because they're an inferior race. Well, I have news for you, many of the people who fought in the Revolution were dirt broke too. Huh, well, I guess after 200 years, the poor get stupid, eh?

My post has nothing to do with that, what i mean is that by installing a goverment in Iraq that the terrorists do not want is only going to focus the terrorism on the installed goverment in Iraq once we leave. The only way to ensure that the goverment will remain intact is to offer the sales of protection for oil or maybe they can cough up a few billion who knows. Still the terrorism once this is done will still be focused on the new goverment until they take it out. Meanwhile they wont be attacking us and we will be in a better position to barter for oil.

Still sonds like BS to me

Originally posted by quango


this reminded of a quote.

"i'm sick of this anti-hitler talk! we are in a war... so if you know what is good for this country and for it's people, then support your fuhrer at a time like this..."
-posted anonymously on a german website in the spring of 1940.


dissent leads to discussion leads to democracy.

The Germans had a website in 1940?

[Edited on 14-4-2004 by Bobbo]

Well i started doing websites in 85 at 300 baud so it must have been a slow one

Originally posted by OldSeer
My post has nothing to do with that, what i mean is that by installing a goverment in Iraq that the terrorists do not want is only going to focus the terrorism on the installed goverment in Iraq once we leave. The only way to ensure that the goverment will remain intact is to offer the sales of protection for oil or maybe they can cough up a few billion who knows. Still the terrorism once this is done will still be focused on the new goverment until they take it out. Meanwhile they wont be attacking us and we will be in a better position to barter for oil.

Still sonds like BS to me

Well, I'm going to use Bush's speach to defend against this. It was said tonight, so right now, we know he feels this way. We are going to keep a security force there for as long as it takes. You may think that we're trying to make Iraq our lightning rod, and I agree with you to some degree. Better to fight them on our terms then theirs. But if the US is doing security there, and training, there's no way for the government to be bought out or corrupted. Most americans hate anti-american sentiments. They wouldn't subscribe to it for any cost; I know I wouldn't. And neither would my cousin Davey, who is over there right now as a Green Barrett. Now if we have a security force that can't be bought, how are the terrorists going to hit Iraq?

Let's face it, as much as it bothers the rabid Bush haters, we haven't been hit here in the US since 9-11. Israel, by my count, has been hit 27 times since 9-11. We must be doing something right. Bush, and more importaintly, his administration, is preventing terror among these united states. He's doing something right. Iraq may have been a target that needed to be hit.

Whoops, supposed to be a U2U..Wonder why I screwed up so bad.

[Edited on 4-14-2004 by junglejake]

i was just being a smart ass when i wrote my post.

i had to take a break from raising hell in some of the other forums

Originally posted by junglejake
Now if we have a security force that can't be bought, how are the terrorists going to hit Iraq?

Thats the problem either we keep a security force there forever and risk more men getting killed or leave at which time you have a Iraq goverment that can or could be bought off or destroyed by terrorism. Either choise is bad but the best one is to let them sort it out themselves for in the end they will do just that.

Otherwise its the protection tech for OIL or money which amounts to the same thing. Either way even with the high tech defence that we have they still got through and I am sure Iraq is far from having the defence abilities we have or ever will. That leads me to believe that we will either be there forever or pull out at some time in the future for whatever reason and make the stay there a mute issue anyway.

Maybe I am not seeing something?

I don't think you're seeing something. Here, in the US, all of our police agencies can be bought. But they're well trained, and believe in their cause, so generally they won't be. But some are, that's the hardcore truth of the matter. If we train the Iraqi police force, and instill in them pride in their country and where they're going, the majority of the won't be able to be bought. This isn't an eternal plan the US has made, it's more of a 10 year plan. We will be out of there, we just have to make sure the Iraqis are ready to police themselves. Because after all, the government and laws of a land don't matter, unless you have a police force that will enforce them.

I guess the question is then.

Will they ever be able to get to this state of security without internal revolutions? And some other reasons as to why we might be there.

My guess is no, In the end they will have to sort it out themselves there are different religions involved and to many internal problems add to that terrorism of officials and it turns into a country where freedom will be only exist through a police state not far from a dictatorship. The ones that are there that want to be ruled by a leader of their religion will not be able to by acts of force or police state. Where is their freedom in our sence of the word? If the magority of the country wanted to go back under a religious dictatorship would they be allow to do so?

With all the existing ifs and not having links to the 911 hit we took. Why are we there. OIL is the only thing I can think of and to centralize democracy in the middle east allowing us a central base of operations to any aggressor that might be on the borders without having to get fly over rights from 10 countries if something happens.

To many ifs in that area and like I said before when we leave or get light in manpower in the area they will sort it out themselves anyway.....

What you want to look for is deals for OIL and a centralized base for future operations while mopping up Saddam's dictatorship and still allowing the other dictatorship countries which I am sure do not run much differently to still exist today.

Well, I need to disagree with you again. I, personally, want someone in office with the same beliefs as myself. Instead I got Bush, but at least (in my mind) he recognises his subservant role to God. Yet that gets attacked daily. I'm watching in the US my right to publicly express my faith fade away...Yet I'm not out starting a revolution. I just vote my faith, I don't take to the streets with an AK demanding, say, Durbin's resignation. What makes me so differnet from an Iraqi, my skin color?

And there will be internal revolutions. We have, in the US, an internal revolution every 4 to 16 years, when the president elected is of a different party then the standing president. Yet, we do it non-violently. I just don't understand why people assume the Iraqis are primitave, violent, warmongers just because they don't enjoy the privelidges we do, spicifically education, and supposedly (I went through the system) spelling.

Me? I believe the Iraqis are good enough for democracy. Y'all can want to "coddle" them and let them live in tyranny because they're not smart enough to deal with a transition of power, but I will argue you to the ends of the earth for that standpoint.

Originally posted by junglejake
Well, I need to disagree with you again. I, personally, want someone in office with the same beliefs as myself. Instead I got Bush, but at least (in my mind) he recognises his subservant role to God. Yet that gets attacked daily. I'm watching in the US my right to publicly express my faith fade away...Yet I'm not out starting a revolution. I just vote my faith, I don't take to the streets with an AK demanding, say, Durbin's resignation. What makes me so differnet from an Iraqi, my skin color?

What makes you so different than a Iraqi is that you were born into this way of life and they were not, you would not start a revolution and they will if given half a chance by any means they can. Form a land of freedom and enforce it until all the generations with these veiwpoints are gone and you have it all set. If not they will fight and die internally in Iraq if they feel it is injust to their way of life reguardless how we feel it should be. you have not seen that in mass in the US since the cival war.

Now if this was just a handfull of people I would say no problem but 10000+ fanatics can raise hell on a newly formed goverment, I do not think they will change their minds based on their beliefs. Dont get me wrong there are those that want this change in iraq that live there but they are not the type to blow themselves up to make a point or terrorise others even the terrorists, but there are alot in that region that are and they will bide their time until they can make a inpact or fade away and a new generation will come in only having lived under that type of goverment.

That means a long time over there and or deals to make it a little bit better or eaiser for us while we are there.

Oil and a centeralized middle east base. Maybe even a stablized middle east country...maybe. The first 2 you can count on.