Please help me to understand my bitterness towards Judaism.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch

I can definitely see that. Even if some jewish moneylenders are corrupt, you can't blame all Jews.
…
Does anybody have an idea of whether there may be some sort of historical reference for the idea that people should be suspicious or even downright hateful of popular Jewish practices such as money lending and such?

This is grossly oversimplified, but here's the core:

Historically, Christianity hated and resented Jews for their merchant and moneylending activities, but needed them because cities and states cannot grow without someone lending money and providing trade.

The hatred comes from the christian prohibition on usury – at that time considered to be any form of moneylending – and is usually referred back to the story of Jesus entering the Temple and overturning the tables of the moneylenders.

There is a spiral that goes on: Christians hate moneylending, so Jews step in as moneylenders. Christians end up in debt to Jews, so they resent Jewish moneylenders. That's pretty much the picture throughout the early Christian era and the middle ages.

So to answer your question, there are a couple of historical sources for hatred of Jews and Jewish practices of moneylending: one, christian culture is historically suspicious of any moneylending activity; and two, people always resent people they owe money to.

Here's a Google books link to some historical information: Religious Violence Between Christians And Jews

As for why you specifically resent Judaism, I would first ask, "do you resent and hate Christianity?"

A lot of people on ATS do, for a lot of the reasons that you've given for resenting Judaism. All of which have to do with political ramifications of the religious institutions rather than either the belief system itself or the individuals who adhere to it.

In your OP you say something about, you don't know any Jews, or if you do you're not aware of it. I think that's key too. You won't think of someone as a Jew unless they call attention to their Jewishness, and most people in most contexts won't do that.

There are in fact Jews who hate what the state of Israel is doing, and there are Jews who don't much like it but don't see an alternative, and there are Jews who don't much concern themselves with politics.

I believe that there are more Jews in New York City than there are anywhere else in the world, but I'll have to check that.

And there are many many different factions of Judaism.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you should be bothered by your reaction to the actions of the State of Israel, but I think you might be interested to learn more about judaism both historically and currently, to gain perspective on the religion as opposed to the politics.

EDIT to add: whenever a faction is doing something that I find repulsive, whether it's Israeli actions in Gaza, Islamic jihadists bombing civilians, or Christians protesting gay rights, it seems like they claim to be doing it on behalf of the religion as a whole. I've found it helps not to let the people who I think have things backward define the terms for me, but to look beyond them to see the larger picture. There are almost always members of that religion who are equally appalled as I am by the actions of the few.

[edit on 2/10/09 by americandingbat]

reply to post by just_another_yourself


I'll go a step further with what you say. Bigotry and lets call it what it really is, is a product of low Self-Esteem. We all have it in some quantity. Some of us recognize it for what it is. Others bury it so deep they fool themselves.

Bigotry is a way people deal with their own lack of self-confidence and a way of transferring their own hatred of self to another target. They feel bad about themselves so they take it out on anyone different from them to give them a way to feel superior and better about themselves. I've never seen a person who did not exhibit it to some degree about some class of people.

Hate the man who asks you for a quarter on the street even though he never did anything but ask for a quarter, that is a Bigot.

Hate the Homeless because they make you feel guilty for having a home and money, that is a Bigot.

Hate the Boss at work simply because he makes more than you even though he treats you good, that is a Bigot.

Most of all we have the Human trait of hating anyone different from us without reason. It makes no sense and I suspect it goes back to our Tribal days when hating those from the next Village was a matter of life and death. To many people meant to little food and we have yet to evolve beyond that survival instinct. When we don't feel good about ourselves we revert to our instincts, well instinctively.

[edit on 2/10/2009 by Blaine91555]

It's been quite a while since I have posted on this board, but I think that this thread could use my input, so I'm going to unretire myself and give my thoughts.

As someone who is Jewish, I can say that it is a complex thing that doesn't always make perfect sense. Our religion and culture can seem strange to outsiders, as, indeed, it often seems strange to ourselves.

Personally, while I support the existence of Israel, I do not believe in it in any way, nor do I feel that it is the Jewish Homeland. In my opinion, the state of Israel has a right to exist simply because people settled there under an international mandate. They created cities and defended it from enemies. The time for debate on this is over and we are left to deal with the reality that it is not going anywhere. This is not to say that the Palestinians do not have a right to that land as well, I believe they do. I find both the actions of the Israeli government and Hamas reprehensible and undignified, especially for groups that form so much of their identity from a religion.

No, it is my personal belief that the United States is the Jewish homeland. Nowhere else in the world are the Jews as welcome as they are here, and while it is not always perfect, it is as close to perfect as we are going to get, as a people. The idea that we need to be beholden to our past is ridiculous. We are a people that has a tradition of exile and of being in strange lands. The need to reclaim the original land of our founding is in my opinion unfounded. Instead, we should embrace our new land, the United States, and with it all the people of this country who allow us to come and stay here; to prosper in peace with our Christian and Muslim and Atheist neighbors.

This bring me to another point that has been addressed, but I would like to offer my view on it as well. The whole concept of a "chosen" people is one that a lot of people misinterpret. I believe that we are "Chosen" because it is our job to endure hardships and rise above. There has always been a fatalistic quality to Judaism, an acceptance of our past and our future, that we will face bigotry and hatred. However, we must rise above. An old man I know often comments, "Strange time to be a Jew". He's been saying it for years because it is ALWAYS a strange time to be a Jew. This is our gift and curse and responsibility. So, the next time you hear someone say "Chosen people" remember, we do not feel that we are better than you, we simply feel that we have been given a unique set of circumstances.

Now, in reading through this thread, I have seen the OP state many times that he feels it bothersome that some feel as if they are better or more right or more in touch with God than others. My question is, do you feel the same about Christians or Muslims?

I could go on and say a lot more, but I think I'll leave it at this for tonight. If you have any other questions though, please feel free to post and I will do my best to answer them!

Originally posted by Blaine91555

Most of all we have the Human trait of hating anyone different from us without reason.

While that is indeed part of our human nature, with the case of Jews it seems to go far beyond simple mistrust of a different tribe. Historically Jews have been disliked far more than most other groups. There are plenty of cases where two very different groups got along quite well when encountering each other. Jews have almost always been universally hated. In an earlier post in this thread I pointed to the 47 times they were banished from places in Europe and Russia in the past 1000 years, long before WW2. Europe and Russia were full of wildly different cultures readily co-mingling, yet the jews were rarely accepted.

There has to be something particular to Jewish culture that offends people. In a recent international poll published by the BBC regarding peoples positive feelings about various nations, Israel ranked at the very bottom along with Pakistan, Iran, and North Korea. While Israel is not in any way a true representation of Judaism, it does reflect on aspects of the Jewish culture. Ironically, Germany came out at the top of the list as most liked nation.

[edit on 10/2/09 by Terapin]

Turn off your TV and the lies MSM tells you and don't tar everyone the same religeon. colour, class with the same brush just because your told 'they're bad or evil'.
Go on personal encounters and just judge the people you meet face to face , you will meet good and bad people of every persuasion, don't matter if they're black, white, yellow, red, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Conservative, Labour, Republican or Democrat, first impressions count apparently , yes it does, but also go by actions speak louder than words. Instead of basing your opinion on a race or specific group base it on the individual on the street that you meet.

reply to post by dashen

I don't think you are right in your statement about the Masons. They do not uphold any one way of worshipping, they accept all pretty much, or at least they don't make you specify who or what you worship, and they don't specifically require a belief in Jesus.

Also, for many years (maybe hundreds) most churches forbid their members to become Masons, seeing membership in secret societies was not compatible with following Jesus, who was pretty adamant about being open and honest. As a matter of fact, just recently, I read the Pope had recently changed his stance on Catholics' having memberships in the Masons, which was once strictly forbidden.

(Not that a lot of people of all types didn't join for the power aspect of it)

Why do you hate Jews?

Terribly enough there is a bibical reason for it. You are supposed to hate them. So if you can handle it I'll tell you what it is and how to find it.

Approximatly 2000 years ago the 69th week of Daniel 9 started. But there was a problem. Elijah the prophet didn't show up. ( The Christian gospels would claim he did as John the Baptist.) Which lead to a problem. And that is contained in the last couple of verses in the Book of Malachi.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Since Elijah never appeared to fulfill this prophecy then you can only draw one conclusion. He never did the job. Also meaning that this curse was triggered. So then the problem is tracking down the details. But since I've already done the hard work so here they are.

Curses under Judaism are specifically dealt with in Leviticus 26. In this chapter the benefits of living under the law of the Torah is explained. And the punishments incurred when they are broken. And they range from minor stuff up to and including famines, plagues, and being overrun by your enemies and hauled away as slaves.

But the "proclaimation of war" so to speak and the details on how long the curse are in the book of Hosea. Chapters 5 and 6 to be specific and the entire book in general. But here are the verses that summerize it in a nutshell. Note verse 14 and 2.

Hosea 5.
12 Therefore will I be unto Ephraim as a moth, and to the house of Judah as rottenness.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 6.
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Verse 14 is the declaration of the curse's intensity. And verse 2 is the length of it. However verse 2 is in a bit of a code. To understand it you need to realize that those 3 days are in the presence of God. And there is a specific rule of thumb contaned in Psalm 90 (and restated in 2nd Peter 3-8) that has to be referred to. That is a day in the presence of God is a thousand years on the earth. That means that this curse in Hosea is 2000 years long. And that it is a top level Leviticus 26 curse.

And above all? My guess is that it still has 20 to 40 years yet to run. And that explains the hatred in the world today concerning the Jews. And you are not even supposed to know why.

Why do you hate the Jews?

I actually figured out that one from a bible standpoint a couple of years ago. Strangest thing really. It seems like its supposed to be a secret. At least the couple of times I posed this question to Rabbis and Christian ministers they act like they know nothing about it. So here it is in a nutshell.

The Jews of the world are under a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse acccording to their own Torah.

Ant the nearest I can figure this curse has approximatly 20 to 40 years left to run.

So why do you hate the Jews? According to this curse you are supposed to.

Oh, and BTW I tried to post this as an anomyous poster but since it didn't show up yet so I thought I would repost it.

So to start with here is how to find the curse. Start with the book of Malachi.

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So what is the problem here? The 69th week of Daniel occured in the 1st century AD. Then the Temple and Jerusalem itself was destroyed in 70 AD.
And after another rebellion the Diaspora happened after 135AD.

So what happened? Elijah the prophet never did the job. And this curse was triggered. So then the problem is digging up the details on the curse.

And here they are.

To start with you need to know about Leviticus 26. This chapter details how benefits are given to groups and countries that agree to live under Judaism. And the curses applied when those groups fall away or break the law of Judaism.

Then you need to read up the book of Hosea. The declaration of the curse and the length of it is in there. However it is summerized in a nutshell in these verses from Hosea 5 and 6.

Hosea 5.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 6.
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Hosea 5-14 is the declaration of war so to speak and Hosea 6-2 has the length of the curse.

So what is the problem there with Hosea 6-2? It's in a bit of a code. To understand it you need to know Psalms 90 or 2nd Peter 3-8. Why? Because those days are in the presence of God. And the rule of thumb is that days in the presence of God are a thousand year long on earth. That curse of Malachi is 2000 years long.

I experienced and continue to experience the same thing even though I claim to be a Christian.

I say it's just good, old-fashioned covetousness. You're not part of the elect, so you envy them, hate them, hate their religion, and their expression of their religion. The father of your thinking is Satan, who hates God, and would love to see every last remnant of the elect wiped out and make God out to be a liar. The only solution is to conform your mind to that of God. A tall order.

God 'chose' Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They didn't choose themselves. If you don't give in to the rights of the creator to a) create, and b) establish the rules for creation, then you're going to continuously be at odds with his decisions. This is the permanent state of the unbeliever - at odds with God.

Through the ingrafting of the gentiles, Jesus has identified his elect which are not public like the children of Abraham. No need to covet though, just accept that you can be part of the family also with all the rights to unending persecution and hatred that such membership entails! (but the ending is good)

They have done Human Sacrifices in every land where they pass through.
Pls. go on YouTube, under Elvira LaBavaroise, & look for "le pain d"azyme"
in French! I have been told the same thing when I visited a City in Europe, that during their "High days" these "Jews" abduct children & sacrifice them. That children would disappear around those Holy days, Yom Kipur, etc.

i am starting a shirt line to educate the masses, so any ideas would helpfull and i am not trying to rake alot of money in, i would sell at cost

reply to post by Ichabod


This kind of thinking is what makes me have so much trouble trusting and believing in religion.

I also think that this kind of thinking is what fuels racism and bigotry.

I am not attacking you or your religion but I have a lot of trouble understanding or wanting to have anything to do with the kind of God you describe.

No attack. No criticism. That is just me.

I have always believed that there was only one God. Maybe that is something else that I am wrong about.

reply to post by NightSkyeB4Dawn


What do you mean by "this type of thinking"? My recitation of the enmity between God and Satan? The fact that the Jews are the public elect of God? The fact that they didn't choose themselves to be Jews? Drawing a line between these statements and your position on fostering racism and bigotry, unless I'm completely missing your point, is nonsense.

Stop raising boogeymen and start thinking. Many people have an innate hatred for and distrust of the Jews. Where does this come from? I know this is wrong, against God, and I hate it when I recognize it in myself. If you don't believe me, then next time you hear someone use the phrase 'Jew them down' then think a little bit. Next time you hear someone suggest that the Jews run all the banks then think a little more. The racism and bigotry is what I'm pointing out - I'm not fostering it by offering an explanation!

There's a conspiratorial, worldwide effort to create enmity against the Jews and it's directed at all of us. Some are more susceptible to this than others.

I for one refuse to participate in it. I stamp it out in myself and I try to be a defender of the Jews when they're attacked because they are God's people.

That's why they're attacked - they're God's chosen people. Get it?

reply to post by Ichabod

That's why they're attacked - they're God's chosen people. Get it?

If you mean do I understand that this is something that "you" believe and are passionate about then yes I get it.

reply to post by NightSkyeB4Dawn


But "you" don't believe this. So, why don't you explain your unbelief or give us a theory as to why the Jews have found no rest for thousands of years?

Many people just gloss over their unbelief by pointing to various ugly attitudes or tangentially related themes in history, e.g. racism or slavery, and cover their eyes as if this leads to any understanding.

My position is that Satan stokes this hatred and that we're all being played by him on many fronts to achieve his objectives.

reply to post by Ichabod

But "you" don't believe this. So, why don't you explain your unbelief or give us a theory as to why the Jews have found no rest for thousands of years?

From what I see there are a lot more people that have it, and for just as many years or more, worse then the Jews could even imagine.

The Jews have just been successful in getting people to believe that it is so much worse for them because they are superior and loved by God above all others.

I say bully for them if they can get people to do their bidding and submit to them willingly because they believe their claim of superiority.

I do believe that some people hate them for their determination to force this belief and the subsequent right of domination on the rest of the people of the world.

I do not believe that people hate them because they are God’s chosen because most of the people that do hate them are not buying that spiel.

I have no desire to tell anyone what they should believe. If you believe that Jews are superior to you and that God loves them more then you then that is what you choose to believe. As far as explaining my unbelief as you requested; that is very easy to do. I don’t believe in a vengeful, spiteful, racist and bigoted God.

I would never tell you that you should give up your God or your beliefs.

You see we get to choose. You choose your God and I choose mine.

Im of Jewish descent and I can tell you one thing for sure.

If you get 2 jews in 1 room you get 5 different opinions.

Jews are people too.

And Jews are certainly not the same thing as Israeli (which is weird I guess as I consider myself a child of Israel rather than a Jew, perhaps I should consider myself a child of the covenant instead).

The modern state of Israel doesnt even have the full support of Orthodox jewdiasm because of the Zionist.

reply to post by gYvMessanger

Jews are people too.

You see that is my problem I guess because that is exactly how I see it.

People; that is all we all are. We had no say in how we were born. We are all part of a huge whole. One puzzle piece by itself appears insignificant and does not tell you much about the whole; whether it is one solid complete color or is mixed with every color in the rainbow. It is not until all the pieces come together that you can see the picture that way it was meant to be seen.

That is how I see my God. He is the creator of the puzzle and each and every piece is important and necessary to complete the picture he has created.

We have contaminated the puzzle along the way. We have tried to separate our little sections and make them into a tapestry that is complete unto itself.

We are but tiny bits and pieces of a whole and vulnerable to many forces when we are separate and incomplete.

People will believe what fits best for them. When I was a young child I believed what I was told by the adults in my life. They got their beliefs from those that came before them. When I did not understand the teachings or they did not make sense to me, I would ask questions looking for answers and a way to cement my faith. The most frequent of the answers I would get was “Thy shall not question the Lord thy God.” That worked when I was a child; then I saw the Wizard of Oz. “Thy shall not question the all and mighty Oz and suddenly a truth seeker was born.

I have no use for religion in any form. I have researched the religions of different cultures through many centuries and the one thing that seems consistent is that every culture thinks their religion is the only “true” religion and that all others are offenders of God and despised in his sight.

From what I see each culture despises the same people that their God despises. You have to start to wonder does the dog wag the tail or does the tail wag the dog.

Originally posted by NightSkyeB4Dawn
reply to post by Ichabod

 

...

I don’t believe in a vengeful, spiteful, racist and bigoted God.

Well, that's one thing we have in common.

I try and understand the reasons for God's actions while you dismiss them as petty or dismiss God altogether when it violates your sense of right and wrong. Where do you get your sense of right and wrong? Is it completely local or have you got a global perspective on it?

But you're quite right, you do have a choice (thank God). So, go ahead. Reinvent a god in your own image - maybe you'll get a following.

reply to post by Ichabod

I try and understand the reasons for God's actions while you dismiss them as petty or dismiss God altogether when it violates your sense of right and wrong. Where do you get your sense of right and wrong? Is it completely local or have you got a global perspective on it?

You are wrong. I do not dismiss God at all. I believe in God; it is religion that I dismiss.

I don’t have to create a God; he is. Nor do I have to create a religion to make my belief in him any more real.

You are angry because I do not believe the words that someone wrote in a book thousands of years ago that has undergone repeated translations through the years along with alterations to suit the ruling agenda throughout history.

I do not need a religion to reinforce my faith in God. It is reinforced every time I look around me; even when I sleep.