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[Indulgences Return] - For Catholics, Heaven Moves a Step Closer

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posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 11:55 AM
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I am not exactly certain that this NY Time story is representative of a conspiracy, per se, I think some might find this topic of interest.

For Catholics, Heaven Moves a Step Closer

Indulgences for sale again?

The entire concept of mandating confession for indulgences seems to be interesting to me. If you are of a paranoid bent, what could convince you to tell a stranger about your deepest, most shameful, sins, in order to satisfy the church's position on indulgences. Wouldn't that open you up to blackmail? Or does everyone take for granted that the Priests don't 'share' those offenses with their own 'higher ups?"

Here is an excerpt:


In recent months, dioceses around the world have been offering Catholics a spiritual benefit that fell out of favor decades ago — the indulgence, a sort of amnesty from punishment in the afterlife — and reminding them of the church’s clout in mitigating the wages of sin.

The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (where Martin Luther denounces the selling of them in 1517 and ignites the Protestant Reformation) simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world.

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.”


Hasn't there ALWAYS been 'sin' in the world?




posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 12:23 PM
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so the church is saying you can buy salvation? im not sure what they mean by indulgence



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 12:39 PM
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I'm surprised (nearing shocked) that the Church is considering the reintroduction of indulgences. This is, in my opinion, one of the least tenable aspects of the Catholic faith--it would surprise me if they do not lose adherents over this.

This is a highly irresponsible move by the Church, though it might very well be good news for critics of the faith.

[edit on 9/2/09 by paperplanes]



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I suspect not...,


According to church teaching, even after sinners are absolved in the confessional and say their Our Fathers or Hail Marys as penance, they still face punishment after death, in Purgatory before they can enter heaven. In exchange for certain prayers, devotions or pilgrimages in special years, a Catholic can receive an indulgence, which reduces or erases that punishment instantly, with no formal ceremony or sacrament.

There are partial indulgences, which reduce purgatorial time by a certain number of days or years, and plenary indulgences, which eliminate all of it. You can get one for yourself, or for someone else, living or dead. You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1857 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day.


But of course there are those who will question how a 'charitable' contribution cannot be ultimately reconciled as 'buying' forgiveness. Sort of the same way 'political campaign contributions' are not to be considered 'bribes' for consideration once elected....



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


The Church's position is that everyone who is in Purgatory will be going to Heaven. There is no need to 'purchase salvation' as you are already on your way.

Indulgences can not help you if you are in Hell (or are headed there).

This might help:

www.newadvent.org...

Have a nice week.

Eric



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
what could convince you to tell a stranger about your deepest, most shameful, sins, in order to satisfy the church's position on indulgences.

Matthew 16:18 Also - it's helpful to speak with someone trained in the area of psychology and spirituality. A good confession isn't just someone sitting there listing what they did wrong. A priest is supposed to be helpful. Help the person get things off their chest. Help the person figure out what they aren't doing right - AND WHY. Help the person by picking them up and dusting them off.


Wouldn't that open you up to blackmail?

Priests are required not to reveal what is in the confessional.
very, very few have ever broken that rule.


“Why are we bringing it back?”

Indulgences never went away. They've always been there.


Originally posted by miriam0566
so the church is saying you can buy salvation?

No. The Church does not sell salvation. That's just an untruth that some fundamentalist churches like to say about the catholic church.


im not sure what they mean by indulgence

Time off of time that someone needs to spend in purgatory to expiate the sins they committed in life. Another way to see it - it's working off bad karma now, instead of in the afterlife.

Myths about indulgences


Myth 3: A person can "buy forgiveness" with indulgences.

The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place: "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina norm 1). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.



Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.

The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church's seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars


For Catholics, Heaven Moves a Step Closer

Indulgences for sale again?



Here is an excerpt:



“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.”



No,No! Its because there is money in the world!

...And sin in the Church. They need another Martin Luther



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by miriam0566
 


The Church's position is that everyone who is in Purgatory will be going to Heaven. There is no need to 'purchase salvation' as you are already on your way.

Indulgences can not help you if you are in Hell (or are headed there).

This might help:

www.newadvent.org...

Have a nice week.

Eric


ok...

but where does the bible say any of this?



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:19 PM
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At some point in this exchange I will expect to hear the quote "As above, so below" in the sense that the Church gets to determine the order of the doctrine, and heaven will follow that 'structure'.

I can't say as I agree, but it seems they (along with the power to excommunicate) claim the privilege of final judgment. It feels wrong to me, but I am the least of God's children, and make no pretense of embracing doctrine I can't understand.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
where does the bible say any of this?

Guess what .. there is more truth in the world then what is just in the bible. The bible even says that. But since you'd like to see something from the bible .. start with these -

Purification necessary for heaven - Heb 12:14, Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification - Matthew 5:26, Luke 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins - Luke 12:47-48
Souls of the dead can be aided by prayer - 2 Mac 12:45
After expiation comes Heaven - 1 Corrinthians 3:15

Those are places that the Catholic Church has interpreted to mean that there are people in purgatory AND we can (and should) be praying for them.

Expiation of sins

1 & 2 Maccabees

Is purgatory found in the bible?

Deuterocanonicals



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
it seems they (along with the power to excommunicate) claim the privilege of final judgment.

Wrong. The Catholic Church fully states that God alone has final judgement over a soul. Read the catechism. It will be helpful for you to understand exactly what the church teaches .. rather then guessing.

Oh .. and a person excommunicates themselves. If they dont' follow what the church states, then they have excommunicated themselves. They have put themselves outside of communion with the church. And if someone doesnt' believe what the church teaches, then why would they want to be in communion with it anyways ..?? They wouldn't.

Excommunicate means that the person can't receive communion. They can go to Mass and worship. They just can't receive communion because THEY THEMSELVES have shown that they don't believe the teachings of the church.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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Nice one.. now all I have to do is save up a few quid and donate it to the church before I die..

And bobs your uncle.. Im in heaven.

What a great idea



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by Dermo
Nice one.. now all I have to do is save up a few quid and donate it to the church before I die..

And bobs your uncle.. Im in heaven.

What a great idea


Uhhhhmmmm, did you even read the thread? Or the link that I provided?

That's not even close to what an indulgence is or how it works.

But no problems, I understand. Reading comprehension and critical thinking can be hard work.

Eric



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Maxmars
it seems they (along with the power to excommunicate) claim the privilege of final judgment.

Wrong. The Catholic Church fully states that God alone has final judgement over a soul. Read the catechism. It will be helpful for you to understand exactly what the church teaches .. rather then guessing.

Oh .. and a person excommunicates themselves. If they dont' follow what the church states, then they have excommunicated themselves. They have put themselves outside of communion with the church. And if someone doesnt' believe what the church teaches, then why would they want to be in communion with it anyways ..?? They wouldn't.

Excommunicate means that the person can't receive communion. They can go to Mass and worship. They just can't receive communion because THEY THEMSELVES have shown that they don't believe the teachings of the church.


Why perform the ritual of excommunication then? I believe this is still a rite which the church does. Also, I said 'it seems' not that it 'is'. My point being that the appearance of the position that one can 'retroactively' engage in penance via indulgence seems misleading once you look deeper into the doctrine.

I have no beef with the church's doctrines, I am only trying to discuss them. Why so defensive?



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Guess what .. there is more truth in the world then what is just in the bible. The bible even says that. But since you'd like to see something from the bible .. start with these -


the bible touches on every major important doctrine in both the jewish and christian faiths. its strange that one has to go to apocryphal works to support purgatory


Purification necessary for heaven - Heb 12:14, Rev 21:27


this is specifically referring to how one should live their life while they are alive. but you are right, noone who is a practicer of sin may enter heaven.


An intermediate state of purification - Matthew 5:26, Luke 12:58-59


actually this is referring to settling disputes. and its refering to this while you are alive.


Degrees of expiation of sins - Luke 12:47-48


to a degree, your right. we are judged with varying degrees, however this is still referring to when you are alive.


Souls of the dead can be aided by prayer - 2 Mac 12:45


how?

gen 3:19
eccl 9:5,6,10
ezekiel 18:4
Psalm 146:4


After expiation comes Heaven - 1 Corrinthians 3:15


its referring to building others faith... not your own.

building up the ¨house of god¨ is referring to the disciple making that every congregation did. the foundation (the apostles) was directly built by jesus. he was talking about using different building materials which would mean that some future christians would have better ¨building materials¨ than others. some would have strong faith and some wouldn´t. if you are teaching someone to be a christian and you dont use good materials, then when there is a fire (persecution or an attack from satan) the house you built (by teaching your disciple) will burn up (they will lose their faith), despite the loss (the sadness you feel that their faith is lost) you will still be saved.

so actually it doesnt even refer to the the afterlife

all the scriptures you have quoted are referring to when you are alive. not after you have died.

in fact the whole, paying for sins after you die thing is rubbish because... rom 6:[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

so if death is what we get for sin, then why are we to undergo further judgement in hell or purification in purgatory?


Is purgatory found in the bible?


the article literally only points to 1 cor 3:15, the passage saying nothing about this happening after you die. and basically, the entire argument hinges on 2 mac.

the only scripture that the article mentions that might be worth mentioning is 1 Peter 3:19–20

but the original greek for ¨preach¨, ¨ἐκήρυξεν¨ is more closely related to ¨proclaim¨ (as in to proclaim a fact, or proclaim news) than ¨preach¨ (to proclaim with the objective of teaching.) the passage also makes a direct reference to the days of noah when angels sinned who are most likely the ¨spirits¨referred to here.

the direct context of this scripture shoes that jesus´death proclaimed victory to the spirits or demons who are awaiting their destruction. its not referring to the dead.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
Why perform the ritual of excommunication then?


2 reasons.

1. discipline for the offending person.
2. to keep the congregation clean of false practices and doctrines.

at least thats how its supposed to work. in theory



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by Maxmars
Why perform the ritual of excommunication then?

The church makes the official statement that someone has excommunicated themselves in order to help guide the person back to the truth* (what they consider the truth to be). By making an official statement the person, supposedly, is supposed to realize the errors of their ways and return to the truth. etc etc

reply to post by miriam0566
 


Of course you are free to interpret the bible however you like. The Catholics have interpreted it differently. Considering all the contradictions in the bible and all the myths and all the stolen passages and stories from the Summerians and the Egyptians ... and considering it was the Catholic Church that put the bible together to begin with, and considering that Martin Luther butchered the bible both adding and subtracting from it ... I'm sure there are mountains of different interpretations.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 03:22 PM
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...And sin in the Church. They need another Martin Luther


You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1857 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day


My bad! They aren't for sale! BUT, if you make a CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTION! wink, wink, nod, nod... Voila ... didn't sell a thing and its tax deductable

Church Lady says "Isn't that special!"



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 03:37 PM
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If anyone feels the need to confess and pick up a few indulgences; my confessional is open via U2U.

I have to qualify this as I am no Priest or even a Catholic; I just like naughty stories.

Confession is good for the soul so why not give my little www. screened in cubical a try. If I deem the confession truthful and worthy; no charge for the indulgence but Love offerings are much appreciated.



posted on Feb, 9 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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Are people still dumb enough to fall for that?


Second line fore sale.



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