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16 Illegals Sue Arizona Rancher--Claim violation of "rights."

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posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by erniemink1
 




I would not want any illegals on my land either and this man has EVERY right to tell them to leave. If they have entered his land without permission, which they clearly have, and killed livestock and stole or did other damage, they are CRIMINALS.



No one has a right to trespass on another’s property. Some states do allow free access unless the land is marked, as in POSTED in my state of KY. An 8 X 11 white sign with black letters must be in plain view and one erected every 660 feet. Such land is OFF LIMITS to anyone. I have seen that - posted - in other states too. It takes the place of fencing.

Who can tell the trespasser to get off the land? Obviously the owner can. But what about a neighbor trying to be helpful? What if one of the required signs was blown over or covered someway? Unless you are the owner, it would be the better part of wisdom to report the incident to the owner rather than employ the “self-help doctrine.” That would be done at the non-owner’s own risk.

As for killing animals, causing damage or committed theft, for sure the trespasser has enhanced his crimes. But again, remember the law - in some places - requires the person making the arrest to have witnessed the offense. Just because you run up on a guy carrying a gutted out calf across his back does not mean he killed it. The killers may have been scared off and the guy came along later and found the carcass. If he asked my advice I’d say “you ought not to take anything OUT of the posted land.” Regardless.




I am 100 percent AGAINST illegal immigration and they need to get rid of ALL of them, and with the overcrowding if you are not born here, you have absolutely NO right to be here period!



I have never been to Texas, New Mexico or Arizona. I am sure they have a very serious issue there. I live in Florida. I’m fairly sure a lot of undocumented workers are here. Orange groves. Strawberries. Florida is the #2 state in cattle east of the Mississippi.

I would not ask anyone if he was “legal” and I would not report or turn in anyone who was unless he was committing a crime. All of them I hear about are up here trying to make a living for their families.

You have to have high regard for a person who goes off to a foreign land without papers, can’t speak the language, doesn’t know the customs, has no local family support and tries to get a job. I’d say those guys have self-selected and we are getting the BEST that country has to offer.

It is true they have no RIGHT to be here, but being here by itself gives them RIGHTS.




posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 05:05 PM
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Don White - - I agree with everything you've said.

And I'm not taking sides either way.

If someone builds their home on the border of another country - - I'd give a 100% chance you are going to get illegal trespassers.

If really sucks if they cause damage to your property and cattle.

Most Mexicans I know where I live came here to give their children a better education. They want their children to have better then they did. Isn't that every parent?

The fence along the border would be built if most those living along the border really wanted it built. But most have a "live let live" attitude.



posted on Feb, 12 2009 @ 11:48 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 


Racist, Bias favoritism that's all you see when immigration is the topic and ever stupid american patriot follows suit, the only thing patriots and nationalist bring to this worlds is division and hate. America will always be known for its culture of hate.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 07:10 AM
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posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 07:36 AM
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reply to post by Annee
 
I can't tell much from the picture. Is the vehicle border patrol?
It's not a matter of whether you are more knowledgeable than I. We have a major problem in this country with illegal immigration.
I believe illegals have no rights in this country, and if they are caught on private property by the property owner, he has the right to do whatever it takes to protect his property.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 07:40 AM
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All of you can stop worrying. Because of our unchecked capitalist market, our economy is no longer worth the time of illegal immigrants.

Funny isn't it? So many thought that economic collapse would come from immigrants 'taking our jobs', but it came, in fact, from our own banking industry. I bet this makes all of those 'rabble rabble rabblers' pretty annoyed that they were wrong.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
reply to post by Annee
 
I can't tell much from the picture. Is the vehicle border patrol?
It's not a matter of whether you are more knowledgeable than I. We have a major problem in this country with illegal immigration.
I believe illegals have no rights in this country, and if they are caught on private property by the property owner, he has the right to do whatever it takes to protect his property.



Yes - they are border patrol. Do you live in an agricultural area near the border. We laugh when they send big wigs from Phoenix - might as well be New York City.

Yes I know illegal is illegal. I also know that at one time we had a legal migrant worker program. Migrant workers used to be hired legally by farm owners - bused in - housed on the land - medical and schooling provided for the children. They were loyal to their employer and generations returned working for the same farm. Today crops are rotting in fields and million and millions of dollars is being lost. When you make something illegal that people want - you create a black market. I know farm owners are paying cash under the table to get their crops harvested. I know it has become a black market business. Yes I know its illegal - but the price of getting fake documents has escalated about 500%. There is no loyalty or generational workers anymore - there is no family unity - its all about finding who pays the most and stealing workers from other farmers.

Why? Because some politician used it as their platform. They used the platform "migrant workers are taking American jobs". So the legal migrant worker program was abolished.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by Annee
 
I have a friend who "imports" workers every year to Florida. He makes good money for about 3-month's work.

With 500 workers at $750 each, he's cleaning up; but these are 'legal' migrant workers who pay up front for the opportunity.

I've got no problem with this.

Will you pick oranges by the bushel? Lemons or limes?

This is capitalism at work.

jw



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by Annee
 
I have a friend who "imports" workers every year to Florida. He makes good money for about 3-month's work.

With 500 workers at $750 each, he's cleaning up; but these are 'legal' migrant workers who pay up front for the opportunity.


That sounds like a worker program. Isn't that what I was talking about?

Read it again. We used to have a LEGAL migrant worker program. I believe Bush actually made noise to re-instate it. (shocking - I know).

But the media circus and propaganda about illegal Mexican workers - - is all most people want to hear.

By the way - - don't let the public know about your friend - - cuz those workers are taking American jobs.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 11:58 AM
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Did you know most of our nurses here in America come from the Philippians?

There are training programs in the Philippians - - and a worker program with the United States.

Seems there is a shortage of Americans who don't want to work the lower levels of nursing.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


No, they're not taking American jobs. If Americans wanted them, they're there for the taking. Do you want to pick oranges and limes?

If any Americans wanted these jobs, there wouldn't be a market for foreign workers.

I've lived in South Texas for over 30 years and there are no Americans competing for the Del Monte jobs picking green beans and tomatoes.

Crystal City and Del Rio depend on migrant workers for their economies. These people work and die in fields that are unregulated by the U.S. I've been there first-hand and know how much the farmers count on migrant workers. There are no American jobs taken.

Go to Crystal City, Del Rio, Eagle Pass and Uvalde and go to work. You will not like it.

deny ignorance

jw



[edit on 13-2-2009 by jdub297]



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by Annee
 


No, they're not taking American jobs. If Americans wanted them, they're there for the taking. Do you want to pick oranges and limes?


I am not the one saying they are taking American jobs.

That is the Media and Propaganda. That is the Political platform the politician ran on to abolish the LEGAL worker program.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 01:21 PM
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I'm supporting the migrant worker program be re-instated.

My friend is a claims specialist for migrant workers (many are legal). She was one of those instrumental in getting Porta-Potties put in the fields for the workers. We WANT agriculture to be here in the states so it can be regulated and health/safety issues enforced.

She runs training programs for farm owners/managers/field supervisors - - to ensure produce is handled properly.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


Hey, let me tell you something about our visitors. I've never had better beans, tortillas and rice than when I had Mexican Americans living with me.

My kids never had better housesitters. My favorite housekeepers were women I paid $15.00 /hour to watch my children.

Give me a break!

jw



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by jdub297
 




No, they're not taking American jobs. If Americans wanted them, they're there for the taking. Do you want to pick oranges and limes? If any Americans wanted these jobs, there wouldn't be a market for foreign workers. I've lived in South Texas for over 30 years and there are no Americans competing for the Del Monte jobs picking green beans and tomatoes. I've been there first-hand and know how much the farmers count on migrant workers. There are no American jobs [being] taken. Go to Crystal City, Del Rio, Eagle Pass and Uvalde and go to work. You will not like it.



Here’s what I think. Two reasons why we have undocumented worers here.

1) Mexico (the government) went bankrupt in 1994. You cannot have even a bad country without money, banks and credit. To raise farm income which could be taxed and make it possible for Mexico to pay its debts, the IMF - International Monetary Fund - and the WB - World Bank - and the US as Mexico’s major creditor, forced the Mexican government to agree to the consolidation of 10s of 1000s of small land holdings - 1 hectare (2.5 acres) on average - into large corporate farms like we have in the Kansas-Nebraska area. Farms that could be mechanized for more output with fewer workers. Capital intensive machines replacing human intensive labor.

The objective of the financial crisis solution was to substantially increase the production of crops that could be sold on the world food market. Mechanized farms replaced those formerly tilled largely by hand and by individual families. Theory had it those displaced subsistence farmers would migrate into Mexico’s cities, take jobs in factories and everyone would be happy! Problem! The number of migrants exceeded the number that the factories could absorb. So now we had people forced off their land and no where to work or to live. So a lot of them moved to the United States, mostly without papers.

2) In the US, the minimum wage was not raised between 1997 and 2007. Ten years. Farm labor is very much unskilled labor. In fact, you don’t even have to know the language to do the work. Most Americans are NOT lazy but few of them could live on the minimum wage paid by agriculture for seasonal work.

In the eastern US, many migrant workers - whether foreign or domestic - begin work in Florida and east Texas in January or February and then as the crops there are harvested, move north to Georgia, and so on. As the season advances so do the workers and they end in New York, Michigan and Minnesota in August or September. Probably about 8-9 months but that’s highly dependant on the weather.

Americans do not want that life style - constantly on the go - nor do they see it as one they should seek for themselves or their children. Watch tv, how many farm workers do you see there? Stoop labor. From daylight until dark. No Sunday’s off. It’s nothing but hard work at low pay.

And that’s why we have undocumented workers in America.


[edit on 2/13/2009 by donwhite]



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by jdub297

Give me a break!



I really don't understand what antagonistic point you are trying to make - because I keep trying to agree with you.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 04:49 PM
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Thank you donwhite - - Facts are always good


And the reason I know about the Politician using "migrant workers are taking American jobs" as a platform - - is because my cousin was a school teacher for the migrant workers. Besides teaching - she was attending local meetings with all the other locals.

The politician won - the migrant program and schools were shut down - farms were lost - and the crops rotted in the fields. This was a first hand account - but doubt you will find any media proof. I think it was in Texas - but can't say 100%.

Its been a mess ever since.

I wonder if the migrant worker program was re-instated if it would help stop/slow illegal crossings - such as those on the Rancher's property. Probably not if they are drug runners. But nothing was ever said about finding drugs on them - that I'm aware of.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 04:59 PM
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If we stop the illegal immigration, then maybe their own government would finally have to come down off their high horses and finally do something for their own people. The problem with open borders is that gangsters are streaming across with the legal workers. Here in Arizona we have a real problem with this. Even with Mexican paramilitary organizations doing enforcement for the Mexican mob.

The right to protect your own property should be a given. Whether it is from people who are citizens or illegal immigrants should not matter.



posted on Feb, 13 2009 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 




The right to protect your own property should be a given. Whether it is from people who are citizens or illegal immigrants should not matter.



Everyone indeed, does have the right to protect his or her property. However there is a very important and limiting word - PROPORTIONALITY. This means the use of force must bear a direct relationship to the threat. You've heard it I'm sure, "excessive force" usually when someone has gone overboard.



posted on Feb, 15 2009 @ 05:01 PM
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And it continues! Another lawsuit.

A Mexican truck driver is suing the Pinal County

This guy did not have a license yet he is still able to sue, and has a lawyer to back his case. Unbelievable .



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