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CheckpointUSA: Gestapo Internal Checkpoints Right Here in America

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posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 01:21 PM
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This is a thought provoking video. Star and flag to the OP!

The underlying point here is Freedom.

Bush has waged two wars under the banner of Freedom. First the Freedom of our citizens and later for the Freedom of the civilians of those countries. And all the while waging a silent war against the citizens of this country. What freedom has actually been gained or lost in the last 8 years?

Department of Homeland Security or Department of Fatherland Security?

My point is that every citizen, soldier and politico needs to ask the question: "Am I serving Freedom?". And finally we need to learn the lessons of circa WWII Germany and the Holocaust and keep a watchful eye on any erosion of Freedom.

This man saw that erosion and I applaud his efforts. I also applaud the civility of the DHS agents however I question their leader's application of law. I also question our need for the bewildering amount of departments serving our freedom (DHS, NSA, NRO, NGA, DIA, INR, FBI, Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, DEA etc) but that should be a different thread.

Obsidience




posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by Nonchalant
Excellent expose on the current state of events in Amerika.

Clearly, it was important for the agents that the US citizen answer the question 'are you an immigrant' than it was for him to be allowed to go without answering. Clearly, this is an infringement of the constitution.

To those in the thread who defend the agents (governments) actions and/or who accuse the citizen of 'provoking' the officers, it is also clear you are those that will be the first to lie down and do as your told when harsher infringements hit your country. And the reason they will is because you allow or make excuses for 'minor' infringements. It is the principal thats important here, not the harshness of what took place. You say its ok to infringe your constitution a little, and in doing so you open a can of worms.


God this lay down, gonna be sheep attitude really has run its course on ATS. Its old, worn out, not true..BS! 3 Illegal MEXICANS killed a woman last week in my city because she wouldn't give them money for walking down "THEIR" street! Yeah THEIR street...here in america...all 3 illegal...If you wanna call it being a sheep that we agree with trying to stop this BS..then fine...but when your wife, daughter, mom, aunt etc is raped then murdered by an illegal alien...keep your mouth shut...you got NOTHING to say in responce...because you made it quite clear...your ok with it all...if anyone is a sheep...its people who walk around high and mighty never seeing or dealing with the reality of our border problems...because others are doing what they can to make sure you don't have to deal with it.



posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by RFBurns
How old are you? They have been doing this along the boarder states for over 60 years friend. No one seems to have a problem answering a simple question, except those who think they are above everyone else and just wants to show their butts on youbloobe videos.


You're welcome to check my ATS profile page.


And you're right that these checkpoints, be they for border security, or agricultural inspection, or what have you, have been around for quite a while, especially in the southwest. That's not the point.

And I know that almost everyone has no problem with an easy question, like "are you a US citizen?". Personally, I don't have a problem answering that, either. That's not the point.

The point, again, is: to what extent do federal authorities have the right to stop everyone at a particular checkpoint, and require them to answer their questions? And what can those questions be? Sure, when it's "are you a US citizen?", it seems harmless, but how about these:

  • Do you know of anyone whom you suspect might be an illegal immigrant?
  • Do you know of anyone whom you suspect might have or current be employing illegal immigrants?
  • If so, what are their names?

    A little more intrusive, but still no problem to most people. The question is, where is the line drawn? What is the controlling legal authority, that prevents officers at such 'checkpoints' from interrogating you on, say, your views about government policy (to determine your 'terrorist threat level', perhaps).

    Note all the 'dancing around' in the video, where what the officer wants is phrased as a 'request', but delivered in the tone of voice as to make it seem an order, complete with the intimidation of the perception of 'color of authority'. Frankly, if I were staffing that checkpoint, and it was my legal duty to ensure that this guy was not an illegal immigrant, I would have had him out of the car and under control while checking his ID, after about 2 minutes of his blathering. That didn't happen.

    The point is, these limits have been spelled out, in Supreme Court decisions. And, it seems as though these officers do not have the authority to compel answers to even simple questions, such as "are you a US citizen?".

    There's no police or secondary federal agency making sure that these 'checkpoints' remain within the law and orders of the Court. It thus falls to citizens to remain vigilant, and make the effort to ensure that legal limitations are respected.

    Thank the Constitution for citizens like this.



  • posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 01:35 PM
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    when watching this video it makes me wonder why didnt the border police
    check all of the vehicles traveling right past in the backround.
    Why didnt they just let the guys in the car go ahead after Gill knew
    they were.
    The other thing is there boss didnt say much.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 01:38 PM
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    reply to post by Ian McLean
     


    Ian thanks for the THANKS of my service...as to your question. I think there is ALWAYS potential for the goofballs in DC to make laws and order our agents to dig deeper and deeper. But lets be honest...if you have been through these checkpoints you realize they are NOT digging deep unless they have that suspicion, or information that makes them want to go further. Or of course a retard with a video camera. These checkpoints are painless and quick...so they are NOT going in the direction people are fearing. But there are guys like this who don't truly understand the reality of freedom THESE DAYS! Its not 1776 anymore....or 1920...people aren't coming here for the RIGHT reasons anymore...to do the RIGHT thing...they are coming here to take advantage of this nation, abuse it, use it, and then run back home laughing. Or don't run back home..rather stay here and keep causing problems until caught...and once caught..they still use/abuse us.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 02:02 PM
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    Just to reiterate for all of you trying to rationalize this;

    * THIS IS NOT A BORDER CHECKPOINT

    * THE POLICE NEED PROBABLE CAUSE TO DETAIN CITIZENS

    * AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT FOR ANY REASON

    * THIS GUY WAS WELL WITHING HIS RIGHTS AND THE 4TH AMENDMENT GUARANTEES HIM THE RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT BEING HARASSED BY FASCIST POLICE PIGS!



    And to those of you that would advocate violence against an american citizen for exercising his god given rights, especially those of you that have fought to protect the very rights this guy was exercising, all i can say is what the hell is wrong with you?!?!

    Have you really been so brainwashed that you want to viciously assault anybody that doenst completely agree with you?! What the hell is wrong with you?! No wonder why this country is so #ed!



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 02:32 PM
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    Ok, I'm not really sure where I stand on this issue as both sides make very valid points. As a truck driver, I am often subject to boarder check points when I'm going into California or coming from southern Texas (near the boarder).

    In this guys video he stated that the check point was a DHS checkpoint, which, in a way, I suppose it is since DHS has oversight over Immigration Checkpoints.

    I believe the video was extrememly confrontational on his part. He specifically went to that checkpoint knowing they were going to ask him if he was an American Citizen and went specifically with the intention of provoking this confrontation.

    He also stated that this check point was 40 miles north of the boarder. As a previous poster mentioned, illegals don't cross *at* boarder checkpoints all the time. Alot of them sneak into the U.S. by crossing out in the middle of no where. I think it is a perfectly reasonable place to have a temporary "floating" checkpoint.

    I diffinately commend the officer for maintiaining his cool in this situation. He knew it was being video taped and the other officer knew it would be put on Youtube. Why get overly confrontational on video if you don't have to? (that's in response to the fella who said they should have had him out of his car and physically detained while they checked his ID.)

    While I would be concerned if this checkpoint had been in the middle of Missouri or Tennessee or Kansas, where it is located makes sense and imnsho should have been a total non-issue.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 02:55 PM
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    The video...

    I have been through a check point, on I-19 south of Tucson, a few times, before it became anchored near Amado. I do not see the problem.
    The personnel I've been approached by, while stopped, asked their questions, very politely... in ENGLISH!

    "Yes,sir (ma'am). I AM one of the few to state proudly, that I am an American."

    Kinda sets them back on their heels a bit.


    MADD- gotta love 'em a bunch for enabling check points.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 03:26 PM
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    Originally posted by Ian McLean

    And you're right that these checkpoints, be they for border security, or agricultural inspection, or what have you, have been around for quite a while, especially in the southwest. That's not the point.

    And I know that almost everyone has no problem with an easy question, like "are you a US citizen?". Personally, I don't have a problem answering that, either. That's not the point.

    The point, again, is: to what extent do federal authorities have the right to stop everyone at a particular checkpoint, and require them to answer their questions? And what can those questions be? Sure, when it's "are you a US citizen?", it seems harmless,


    It is harmless. So harmless that it takes less than 2 seconds to have the question posed, and answered, then move on.



    Originally posted by Ian McLean
    but how about these:

  • Do you know of anyone whom you suspect might be an illegal immigrant?
  • Do you know of anyone whom you suspect might have or current be employing illegal immigrants?
  • If so, what are their names?

    A little more intrusive, but still no problem to most people.



  • These are not intrusive at all. Are you aware of the term "Cyote Pyote's"??
    These are people who smuggle in or smuggle illegals on US roadways, taking them to various cities and towns and just turning them loose, like wild animals. These questions are asked because someone who is a part of these Cyote Pyote groups would not be so calm cool and collect in answering them. Those boarder officers are not dumb and know exactly who they are looking for. 99 percent of the time, they are only asking the question that has been their normal procedure for decades...and that is.."Are you an American citizen?".

    A time ago, they used to just wave you on through, not even having a stop sign or red light. But with the dramatic increase in illegals in this country and comming across the boarder each and every day, and the outcry of the public to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...well they ARE doing something about it!!!!


    Originally posted by Ian McLean
    The question is, where is the line drawn? What is the controlling legal authority, that prevents officers at such 'checkpoints' from interrogating you on, say, your views about government policy (to determine your 'terrorist threat level', perhaps).


    Got any proof that these boarder officers start asking questions about your political views or your views on government policies??? They dont interrogate anyone. None of that crackpot's videos shows ANY interrogating going on. The only thing the videos shows is this numbnut's habbit of causing a problem to official business.



    Originally posted by Ian McLean
    Note all the 'dancing around' in the video, where what the officer wants is phrased as a 'request', but delivered in the tone of voice as to make it seem an order, complete with the intimidation of the perception of 'color of authority'. Frankly, if I were staffing that checkpoint, and it was my legal duty to ensure that this guy was not an illegal immigrant, I would have had him out of the car and under control while checking his ID, after about 2 minutes of his blathering. That didn't happen.


    The video idiot avoided the question, began purposely delaying the process of the patrol officer's duty, and also causing an unecessary delay in everyone else's day. The officer was being quite paitent in waiting for that answer from this idiot. None of this bozo's problems would even be occuring if he simply answered with "yes".


    Originally posted by Ian McLean
    The point is, these limits have been spelled out, in Supreme Court decisions. And, it seems as though these officers do not have the authority to compel answers to even simple questions, such as "are you a US citizen?".


    Those Supreme Court decisions do not give the green light to cause disruption or give the officers hassle either. NO where in those decisions by the Supreme Court does it say "you have the right to refuse to answer any question posed by an official of the US Boarder Patrol, or any other peace officer". Please show us where it does say that.


    Originally posted by Ian McLean
    There's no police or secondary federal agency making sure that these 'checkpoints' remain within the law and orders of the Court. It thus falls to citizens to remain vigilant, and make the effort to ensure that legal limitations are respected.

    Thank the Constitution for citizens like this.


    No where in this idiot's videos does it show ANY abuse by ANY of these officers or check points whatsoever. The only abuse being shown is by this idiot abusing his rights and everyone elses on that road by causing interference to an official's duty.

    In effect, this idiot's videos show just the opposite of how NOT to excersise one's rights. He does not cooperate, he does not answer the question but poses more non-relevant questions right off the bat, cowering in his locked vehicle with the window barely cracked open to even hear the officer's quesitons clearly, and is the very core of why those officers end up becoming frustrated at his stupidity.

    It is people like this that make the entire country look incredibly stupid to the rest of the world. It is just someone showing off their arses, thinking they are above the law and just because they are recording video that they can deliberately interfere with official business of the boarder patrol.

    It wont surprise me one bit that one of these days this idiot will be arrested and charged with obstruction and interfereing with official boarder patrol business and end up in jail.

    It would serve him right. And he would deserve every bit of it.

    There is such a thing as honoring your rights as an American, and such a thing as being a responsible, respectful citizen.

    There is no clause in ANY document of this country that says you have the right to abuse your rights to your whim.

    This is a free country, but not to the extent of you are freely above the law.

    And this fella will find that out sooner if not later.



    Cheers!!!!



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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    reply to post by prionace glauca
     
    Someone should be asking that agent to show his papers. He can barely speak English or articulate a thought, according to what was presented in the video. Wouldn't that be something if he was actually a mexican national and he's questioning American citizens about their status?? What a country we've let this become.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 05:40 PM
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    reply to post by rcwj75
     



    Originally posted by rcwj75
    Hey call it what you want but atleast I served the country that gives me the rights and freedoms we have...


    What point would there be in serving the country to protect those rights if you then feel the need to bash in the teeth of anyone who wishes to assert or use them?


    Your position is a grotesque insult to American political values. It insults the true service offered by the lives of tens of thousands before you.


    :shk:

    I hope you're really all about message board bravado and that in real life your positions are far more productive.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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    THIS IS NOT A BORDER CHECKPOINT

    Yes it is, the officer is clearly wearing the uniform of a US Border Patrol agent. IIRC the video was filmed in Minnesota.

    These checkpoints have been around since the Border Patrol was created in 1924 ...



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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    The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


    It is my understanding that DHS agents are federal law enforcement officers. These agents were well within their authority to question this person's residency status. This person flatly refused to make an oral declaration either way.

    It is apparent that this person has a flagrant disregard for law enforcement or the law. These officers have to treat everyone the same, irregardless of race or ethnicity. If they don't then they would in essence have to resort to racial profiling, which if memory serves correctly, is against the law.

    It is true that there has been an erosion of our personal rights in the name of national security. The creation of DHS is a prime example of the lengths the Bush Administration went to to better secure our borders after the events of 9/11. It's a classic case of Catch-22, where something has to give. One aspect of this is prevailing ourselves to questioning by law enforcement officers if and when the occasion arises, in this case a security checkpoint.

    Personally, I have no sympathy whatsoever for this individual. He refused to answer a question put forth by a federal law enforcement officer, and he was lucky he wasn't detained or arrested for failure to comply. This guy's attitude came across as smug, obtuse, and seemingly above the law.


    As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 07:47 PM
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    reply to post by maria_stardust
     



    Originally posted by maria_stardust
    These agents were well within their authority to question this person's residency status.


    If that were true, the law enforcement officers would have likely arrested him.

    Why didn't they?

    [edit on 8-2-2009 by loam]



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 07:54 PM
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    The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


    reply to post by loam
     


    Considering I'm NOT a law enforcement officer, I can only surmise that it was their prerogative as to whether or not to arrest or detain this individual. Apparently, they chose not to.



    As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 07:57 PM
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    Darn, I was hoping for a good pepper-spray of taser vid, not just some liberal harassing the fine people of the DHS. I certainly wouldn't have shown such professionalism and restraint.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 08:03 PM
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    reply to post by maria_stardust
     


    I went back and watched the video again.

    In addition to this:






    18.7(b) Reasonable Suspicion: Before an inspector may constitutionally detain a person (non-entry related case) the inspector must have reasonable suspicion that the person is an alien and is illegally in the United States.

    --Customs and Boarder Protection Field Manual.




    ...the citizen also mentioned United States v. Martinez-Fuerte:




    The court ruled 7 to 2 that the internal checkpoints were not a violation of the Fourth Amendment, but rather were consistent with the amendment. They went on to say that it would be impracticable for the officers to seek warrants for every vehicle searched and that to do so would eliminate any deterrent towards smuggling and illegal immigration. The court felt that any intrusion to motorists was a minimal one and that the government and public interest outweighed the constitutional rights of the individual.

    The court also ruled that the stops were Constitutional even if largely based on apparent Mexican ancestry.

    However the court added that restrictions still exist: "We have held that checkpoint searches are constitutional only if justified by consent or probable cause to search....And our holding today is limited to the type of stops described in this opinion. -[A]ny further detention...must be based on consent or probable cause. Our prior cases have limited significantly the reach of this congressional authorization, requiring probable cause for any vehicle search in the interior and reasonable suspicion for inquiry stops."



    So the citizen was correct in asserting his position, and it further explains why he was NOT arrested.

    Like I said earlier, I give kudos to both actors in this.


    [edit on 8-2-2009 by loam]



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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    as the late george carlin said: " you don't have any rights, just temporary privledges." so true, my late friend, so true.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 08:13 PM
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    The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


    reply to post by loam
     


    So, by your logic, anyone can refuse to answer a federal law enforcement officer's line of questioning at a check point and be granted immediate release. If this is the case, then all check points would be deemed moot, would they not?

    Seriously, should DHS bypass questioning people who appear to be Caucasian and concentrate their efforts on ethnic minorities? Should they only stop people who appear to be Hispanic? Where does one draw the line as to who is questioned and who isn't?


    As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



    posted on Feb, 8 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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    If these checkpoints are illegal then aren't DUI checkpoints illegal so i can drive as drunk as I want as long as I can spit out why are you detaining me. Good to know.



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