Florida to be next battleground for Intelligent Design?

Florida to be next battleground for Intelligent Design?

jacksonville.com

State Sen. Stephen Wise, a Jacksonville Republican, said he plans to introduce a bill to require teachers who teach evolution to also discuss the idea of intelligent design.

Wise, the chief sponsor of the bill, expects the Senate to take it up when it meets in March. He said its intent is simple: "If you're going to teach evolution,then you have to teach the other side so you can have critical thinking."

(visit the link for the full news article)

I already sent in a "Letter to the Editor" and I'm just going to copy and paste that here as I think that sums up my thoughts on this

In response to the article about Senator Wise's introduction of a bill requiring the teaching of Intelligent Design alongside evolution in Florida schools. If we are to allow opposing arguments into Florida classrooms so students can "Hear All Sides" then I believe we should have teachers present evidence that the Holocaust never happened, the value of pi is 3, and the sun revolves around the Earth. Those would be on par with making Biology teachers teach Intelligent Design opposite evolution. Since Darwin published On the Origin of Species, mountains of evidence, including but not limited too, countless fossils, DNA, and observed speciation have helped modify and strengthen how scientists believe life has grown and adapted since first appearing on this planet. Evolution has survived being outright banned in many Southern states, some only allowing it to be taught in schools as late as the 1980's. The Intelligent Design movement, however, has been the one needing legislation and politics to be allowed into schools. I would encourage readers to watch the documentary Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on trial, which deals with The Discovery Institute, the "Origins" of the Intelligent Design movement, and the Dover, Pa trial.

jacksonville.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Originally posted by FSBlueApocalypse
then I believe we should have teachers present evidence that the Holocaust never happened, the value of pi is 3,

Sorry, mate. I have to disagree here.

The exact value of pi is not 3 and it never will be.

Read why pi is not 3 here...

Teaching topics with subjective answers may provide an opportunity to discuss alternate viewpoints. However, teaching students false facts about proven properties for numbers is wrong.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by FSBlueApocalypse
then I believe we should have teachers present evidence that the Holocaust never happened, the value of pi is 3,

Sorry, mate. I have to disagree here.

The exact value of pi is not 3 and it never will be.

Read why pi is not 3 here...

Teaching topics with subjective answers may provide an opportunity to discuss alternate viewpoints. However, teaching students false facts about proven properties for numbers is wrong.

You missed the point entirely of what I was saying. I was saying that forcing Biology teachers to teach Intelligent Design would be the same as forcing math teachers to say Pi is equal to 3. Just as there is no basis for Pi equaling 3, Intelligent Design has no basis in a Science classroom.

This Senator is correct, and the is no proof of the big bang evolution theory. The students need to hear both sides and make the decision themselves. You have to teach both sides of this.

Sorry if you don't like it, but this isn't your choice, its the students to decide what to believe.

This is a very iffy subject, but in all honesty, if we evolutionists are gonna be hammering down, the "there is no god when it comes to how we became man" theories, then IMO we should atleast be discussing the alternative theory.

Not necessarilly teach and grade children but have open ended discussions on the possibilities and the implications. This would help stimulate constructive, intelligent scientific conversations about the pros and cons of such design.

It might help some students come to terms with science if they are highly religious, and if nothing, it will make christians happy for a little bit.

That's a price i'm willing to pay. Besides it's not like kids aren't going to hear it from anybody else.

~Keeper

You miss the point of what I am stating.

Pi is a universally proven constant. Accepting the fact that pi = 3 is stupidity. There is no lattitude for pi to be anything other than its defined value.

How can you be so sure that there was not some measure of intelligent design when life spawned on Earth? You can't. There is no PROOF.

It's a funny word, proof... without it, many concepts are merely subjective, even if they are likely to be true.

Go back a couple of hundred years and many of our currently accepted scientific 'facts' had no basis in science classrooms. However, from the late 1800's it has been shown that pi is transcendental and there are many ways to generate the sequence of decimal digits for pi.

reply to post by tezzajw


Your not understand what he meant. But either way, you're argument has no proof either, we can't prove the big bang, and we can't prove intelligent design, therefore why not study both?

It makes perfect sense to speak to kids about the two most commonly accepted theories and give them the choice to make up they're own minds. Were not really being fair if we tell them that a scientists theory is correct over their faith now is it?

As much as some would disagree with religious teachings (and it would usually be me) when it comes to education, it's our job to provide students will ALL of the information regardless of personnal belief, in order for them to make informed decisions.

~Keeper

Intelligent Design has no basis in a Science classroom.

I cannot agree more with you. Intelligent Design (real name: creationism) is like cancer, unless you eradicate it completely, it will come back in a more vicious form.

That the beauty of science; someone observe, elaborate a theory, publish the results and the method used (meaning everyone is free to duplicate the experiment).

Someone can challenge the theory, but it will be made within the framework of science, using the same method, not belief or religion.

If it was not for science, we will still adore the Sun-God or some obscure beliefs.

When Obama mentioned that science will take it's rightful place, I hope he was not only thinking of science in government reports but also in the classroom.

Originally posted by PopeyeFAFL

Intelligent Design has no basis in a Science classroom.

I cannot agree more with you. Intelligent Design (real name: creationism) is like cancer, unless you eradicate it completely, it will come back in a more vicious form.

That the beauty of science; someone observe, elaborate a theory, publish the results and the method used (meaning everyone is free to duplicate the experiment).

Someone can challenge the theory, but it will be made within the framework of science, using the same method, not belief or religion.

If it was not for science, we will still adore the Sun-God or some obscure beliefs.

When Obama mentioned that science will take it's rightful place, I hope he was not only thinking of science in government reports but also in the classroom.

But don't you understand that all science is, is our best guess at the time??? That's all it is, we can only verify it because it is to the extent of what our brains can process and interpret, with the tools that we have designed. Therefore every one of our scientific theories...because that's what they are, could be fundementally wrong.

Just look at Quantum Physics and how many barriers that scientific theory has shattered in the past decades. You can't just go around telling kids that science is absolute truth, because then you're no better than the christians who assault you with they're religious dogma.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Your not understand what he meant. But either way, you're argument has no proof either, we can't prove the big bang, and we can't prove intelligent design, therefore why not study both?

Did you understand what I typed?

I pointed out that subjective opinions and theories can't always be proven or relied upon as being 'fact'. Discussing them in relation to other theories can be useful.

On the contrary, the OP claimed that teaching subjective opinions is similar to teaching that pi = 3. This is logically false, as pi has been defined and proven to be something different from 3.

Take a step back for a minute and read what I typed.

reply to post by tezzajw


And Evolution has mountains of evidence as well, while Intelligent Design has? Evolution happens, that's as much of a fact as Pi is 3.14. No legitimate Biologist accepts Intelligent Design just as no mathematician would accept Pi is 3. There is nothing subjective about things like DNA, fossils, and the mountains of evidence that support Evolution.

[edit on 2/8/2009 by FSBlueApocalypse]

Originally posted by FSBlueApocalypse
And Evolution has mountains of evidence as well, while Intelligent Design has? Evolution happens, that's as much of a fact as Pi is 3.14. No legitimate Biologist accepts Intelligent Design just as no mathematician would accept Pi is 3.

At this point, it's clear to me that you don't know what pi actually is.

Pi is not 3.14. It's more than that. There is more than merely 'evidence' to 'suggest' that pi is 3.14etc... There is DEFINITIVE PROOF that pi is what it is - a transcendental number.

There is no DEFINITIVE PROOF that I have seen to explain everything in the theory of evolution. Sure there is lots of evidence for it but without the rigorous proof, it's a working theory.

When you make an analogy, make sure that it is a valid analogy. Comparing this situation to pi = 3 is not a valid analogy.

reply to post by tezzajw


I know what Pi is. It was an analogy to the absurdity of teaching intelligent design, and if that's all you're going to argue then I'm done as well.

Originally posted by xstealth
This Senator is correct, and the is no proof of the big bang evolution theory. The students need to hear both sides and make the decision themselves. You have to teach both sides of this.

Sorry if you don't like it, but this isn't your choice, its the students to decide what to believe.

There is no nothing called the "Big Bang Evolution" theory so yes there is no proof. As for actual evolution, there is a lot of proof. DNA being the best. As I said, it would be equal to allowing Holocaust deniers to present their evidence to a history class.

Originally posted by FSBlueApocalypse

Originally posted by xstealth
This Senator is correct, and the is no proof of the big bang evolution theory. The students need to hear both sides and make the decision themselves. You have to teach both sides of this.

Sorry if you don't like it, but this isn't your choice, its the students to decide what to believe.

There is no nothing called the "Big Bang Evolution" theory so yes there is no proof. As for actual evolution, there is a lot of proof. DNA being the best. As I said, it would be equal to allowing Holocaust deniers to present their evidence to a history class.

Your example makes no sense, The Holocaust DID happen. There are people still alive who witnessed it. There are no people alive from the time of creation. Now i am by no means religious and fully support the views of evolution, but it remains to be said that both can be argued and neither can be disproved or proved without a doubt.

You use DNA as a veritable example. I could argue that only god could make something so complex, and that evolution was his trial and error phase. You see what i mean?

Now as i said in my previous post, i don't think we should "teach" intelligent design, because you needs experiments and theory and proven facts to teach anybody anything. But it should be discussed along with evolution to open up avenues of intelligent conversation.

This is hardly an "evidence" vs. "no evidence" argument (or rather, it is).

We actually have evidence for evolution, albeit not entirely complete. So? Tip the scales and which side is lower?

Anything else is just "Oh, the big green-fairy-dust-sandman-in-the-sky-who-sees-my-dreams-did it."

The bill to "discuss" ID seems okay. Let the students discuss it into absurdity because that's where it will always end up in a rational and intelligent discussion.

It's better than ignoring it. Ignoring ignorance is merely protecting it and letting it thrive in the shallow depths of the mind of the most vile creatures.

Originally posted by xstealth
This Senator is correct, and the is no proof of the big bang evolution theory. The students need to hear both sides and make the decision themselves. You have to teach both sides of this.

Sorry if you don't like it, but this isn't your choice, its the students to decide what to believe.

Really? So they should have to hear my theories too then right? Who says there only gets to be two sides? Who says it evolution or a god and those are the only two choices. How about the flying spaghetti monster? I cannot wait to see how much I am going to make off the text book on my beliefs that will be required reading while the kids are in biology 23 hours a day hearing all sides.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


No I don't see what you mean. And every single respectable scientist on this planet doesn't either. Only a fool would argue that God created DNA as his trail and error phase. Please look up the scientific method. Especially the experiment must be repeatable part.

reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse

I already sent in a "Letter to the Editor" and I'm just going to copy and paste that here as I think that sums up my thoughts on this

It is suprising to me that people react so strongly to the notion the universe was created by an intelligent power, perhaps even instaneously.

All we have to the contrary is about 150-years of scientific prejudice as well as our old friend the platypus, as well as other examples that the evolution of species from some sort of 'primordial soup' is nonsense.

Why the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the 'creationist' viewpoint ? I don't understand it.