U.S. vs. China

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posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 12:05 PM
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How to Destroy America -Tiger Style

1. Go to the Cumbre Vieja volcano on La Palma in the Canary Islands off the West Coast of Africa.
2. Plant a large explosive device in a main seam of the volcano, agitating an massive eruption.
3. KA~BOOOOOOOOOM

You'll now see a landslide with half a trillion tonnes of rock crashing into the sea.
A landslide triggering a mega-tsunami, which has an initial wave height of 650 metres (2,130 feet) and moves out over the ocean at speeds up to 720 km/h (450 mph)
By the time such a wave crossed the Atlantic, its power would have diminished but it would still wreak havoc up to 20 kilometers (12 miles) inland

^_^ Pretty sweet!


try it at home kids~




posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I said basically the same thing - my point was, IF they were to back one side or the other, it would be the US.


Not really. I said CHina has nothing to gain if it helps the U.S.

Why would China help a nation that it would have to bow to? Sure, China will get money and will probably have an ally. But China is not a weak nation. It has it's own sense of identity and destiny (different from those of America). Therefore, it's almost insane to even guess they would help the U.S. It has nothing to gain (besides money and a military ally), and even that's not worth it. It'll derail China's goals.


And I said China would stay out of a NK situation. On top of that - I hope you know that discussions are ALREADY underway for China to deal with NK for the US if needed. It is well known that the US wants to let China handle NK, and we have already discussed situations with them to try to get them to deal with it. This is because we do not want to be "infringing" on Asian territory. It would be Chinas deal - however, if they refused to do it, then we would.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 12:17 PM
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American Mad Man,

Interesting. However, I still think you cannot underestimate China's defensive capability. The U.S. only has so many Stealth combat aircraft, so to say it would dominated by them is an overstatement. Over 90% of the missions would be carried out by conventional aircraft, and they would be prey to China's extensive air defense system, which is one of the most concentrated in the world (forget Warsaw Pact, they don't have air defenses anymore). They also have good EW capability and the long distances required to fly would give more things to go wrong.

So U.S. aircraft would be at a huge disadvantage. A single mission would require tons of escort, which would then compete with other missions and further stretch the air power in the region. The two Gulf Wars had tons of sorties, most of which required little to no fighter escort, because the Iraqi Air Force put up almost no resistance and their air defenses were poorly set up. And U.S. fighters would be largely outnumbered, at least by a factor of 4-1. And that's a blessing, considering we would've been outnumbered by over twice that in a war with the Soviet Union.

So U.S. would get the beating here



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 12:47 PM
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I cant be bothered to read the whole thread so I'm going to reply directly to the first post.
a) Invading china would be stupid. They could easily draft in all 1-1.2 billion people. The military technology there isnt exactly stone age.
b) A country that large would require a fair bit of nuking to destroy, and I would be very surprised if the US decided to do the nuking, think about world opinion.
c) China is going to be the world Second-Largest-Economy by 2015, with Russia thought to be the largest by then (as stated by many financail experts). If they currently have enough money to put people in space, think about what they'll be able to afford in 10-ish years time.
d) Back to the space point, Russia put sputnik in space to demonstrate it had the capability to launch guided missiles.
e) China is one of the five countries allowed nuclear weapons. Do you really think they wouldnt retaliate?
f) China is communist, for all intents and purposes, Japan in World War 2 used every home as a bomb making or arms producing factory. Now convert that to China, potentially around, what, 600-million places which are producing weapons.
There is no need for food supply, as the land is plenty enough, all of the US electronics are, basically, supplied from China, so if that supply is cut then technology will have to wait a while for new factories to be built at high cost and high labour cost, thus making technology expensive...
Materials plenty in china, etc...

The US needs China to consider itself a world power, and this need will be increasingly strengthened in the future. If China invaded Taiwan, you would see little to no reaction from the US/UN because China has them wrapped around its finger.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by mrsteve


Actually I think China really wants to put a base on the moon. Then they could just drop rocks on whoever they wanted.


No nation can put a base on the Moon. They are bound by the Moon Treaty. No nation or corperation can make claim to the moon.

As for dropping rockets on anyone they wanted: they don't need the moon to do that. Any nation with ICBMs can hit any target in the world.


Tell that to the NASA space plans!
Moon base by 2015, Mars manned missions stemming from the Moon base.
The Moon Treaty is that no one can CLAIM the moon as their terroritory.
Not that you cant build a base on it.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
American Mad Man,

Interesting. However, I still think you cannot underestimate China's defensive capability. The U.S. only has so many Stealth combat aircraft, so to say it would dominated by them is an overstatement. Over 90% of the missions would be carried out by conventional aircraft, and they would be prey to China's extensive air defense system, which is one of the most concentrated in the world (forget Warsaw Pact, they don't have air defenses anymore). They also have good EW capability and the long distances required to fly would give more things to go wrong.

So U.S. aircraft would be at a huge disadvantage. A single mission would require tons of escort, which would then compete with other missions and further stretch the air power in the region. The two Gulf Wars had tons of sorties, most of which required little to no fighter escort, because the Iraqi Air Force put up almost no resistance and their air defenses were poorly set up. And U.S. fighters would be largely outnumbered, at least by a factor of 4-1. And that's a blessing, considering we would've been outnumbered by over twice that in a war with the Soviet Union.

So U.S. would get the beating here


US would get the beating. HAHAHAHA.... you are very mistaken....

Well, if you are talking all out war, more (stealth aircraft) would be built. Also, like I said - stealth aircraft would be doing the initial strikes along with thousands of cruise missles. We would be sending in the B-1s, B-52's, and F/A-18's much later. Chinas AF most likely wouldn't be able to get off the ground after a week or two. You need airstrips to take off - airstrips are very easy to find with satalites. If you can see it, you can shoot it - so all their air fields would be gone. Then they can't get aircraft in the air, so that whole 4-1 odds thing is moot. Also, there pilots suck. Little training, airtime and experience. Also, airplanes require this little thing called fuel - US prevents fuel from getting in, thus planes cannot fly.

Just so you know - Iraq had one of the most extensive air defence networks in the world in GW 1, and they still didn't do crap. China uses the same soviet built stuff, so what makes you think they would fair any better - they have MUCH more land to defend, and unlike the Iraqi military, have almost no veterans in there military.

Like I have been saying - the airwar would go to the US, the ground war might be different.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:07 PM
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look no one would win it would be the simple case of a draw america owns the sky while china controls the ground in vietnam type conditions
also i have to say i would seriosly doubt that no 1 would react to china invading taiwan the UN would stop it or NATO would get bored and just start on china
or america would go in with its allies and kick the **** outa chinas landing force



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:07 PM
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The best way how to defeat china will be simply setting a naval blockade and starve them to the death. The military support for some rebelions in Tibet and Uigur provinces would be also necessary. The next move will be attack on their huge water dams to flood the most important territories. Then destroy their infrastucture, economy, comunications. Wait a year maintaining a blocade. Then move in and seize the rest or you can simply go home - China is back in the stone age and not longer a threat.
HOPE something like this never happens.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:13 PM
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The reason why Iraq's air defense was not a threat in Gulf War I was that they were INCOMPETENT, in large measure because the military system was run by political hacks who cared mostly about making sure there wasn't a coup against the dictatorial monster.

China's military is substantially more advanced, and they aren't a bunch of idiots.

The US would still get air superiority. But then what?

Attacking China's mainland is a lose-lose proposition for everybody.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by longbow
The best way how to defeat china will be simply setting a naval blockade and starve them to the death.

You fool!
You ignorant fool!
Do you not realize that like 90% of Chinese population is farmers??
The country has more than enough open space to supply it's own, and other countries food.
They only import food because it is more financially viable to throw people into the technology production industries which can then be exported for more money than they spend on buying food!



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by browha
I cant be bothered to read the whole thread so I'm going to reply directly to the first post.
a) Invading china would be stupid. They could easily draft in all 1-1.2 billion people. The military technology there isnt exactly stone age.
b) A country that large would require a fair bit of nuking to destroy, and I would be very surprised if the US decided to do the nuking, think about world opinion.
c) China is going to be the world Second-Largest-Economy by 2015, with Russia thought to be the largest by then (as stated by many financail experts). If they currently have enough money to put people in space, think about what they'll be able to afford in 10-ish years time.
d) Back to the space point, Russia put sputnik in space to demonstrate it had the capability to launch guided missiles.
e) China is one of the five countries allowed nuclear weapons. Do you really think they wouldnt retaliate?
f) China is communist, for all intents and purposes, Japan in World War 2 used every home as a bomb making or arms producing factory. Now convert that to China, potentially around, what, 600-million places which are producing weapons.
There is no need for food supply, as the land is plenty enough, all of the US electronics are, basically, supplied from China, so if that supply is cut then technology will have to wait a while for new factories to be built at high cost and high labour cost, thus making technology expensive...
Materials plenty in china, etc...

The US needs China to consider itself a world power, and this need will be increasingly strengthened in the future. If China invaded Taiwan, you would see little to no reaction from the US/UN because China has them wrapped around its finger.


OK, on many points you are flat out WRONG.
A) China CAN'T "easily draft 1-1.2 billion people." That would be there whole population - women, children and elderly. They cannot draft that many people because they would only have 50 million guns. So you would have 1.15 billion people fighting with sticks and rocks against precision guided bombs, M1A2 tanks, stealth bombers, and apache helos? riiiiiiiiiiight


B) Maybe you should READ THE POST! We are assuming NO NUKING because there would be no real winner!

C) What are you smoking. You are saying that the US will be the 3rd largest economy in 15 years? Please, may I see a link? What experts? lemme give you a few FACTS. US GDP - 10.208 TRILLION dollars. Chinese GDP - 1.159 TRILLION. Russian GDP - 310 BILLION. So you are telling me that Russia will pass the US....... Riiiiiiiiiigghhhhhhhht. so you are saying that the Russian economy will multiply by 33 times in the next 15 years? Hell, even China would have to grow by nearly 9 times to pass the US, and both of those times I am assuming the US economy doesn't grow.

Largest Economies

D) I don't know that this was the reason they put it into space - but who cares - IT IS NOT RELATIVE TO THIS THREAD.

E) China only one of 5 countries ehhhh? USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Isreal - I count 6 there, and there are more such as India. Plus, no one is "allowed" to have nukes or not - you can try and build them and once you have them then people don't mess with you. Countries can try to attack you before you get them though. Also, again - read the posts - we assume "no nuking"

F) This is a joke right? First off, you assume there are 600 million places that can produce weapons. HAHAHAHAHA. you have no idea what you are talking about do you? you are just making stuff up. Where are they going to get these machines? they aren't there already. The US is not dependent on China for our high tech stuff - there are plenty of countries that would build plants and take the US money in return.

As for the US not backing Taiwan - we may or may not, depending on how far our president is willing to go in a war with them. But it doesn't matter you know why? Because China is scared of the US military. Even beyond that, they won't invade because THEY CAN'T. They simply don't have the logistics to do it.

CIA Director George Tenet - China can't take Taiwan

Washington Times
an exerpt:



A Western diplomat in Beijing speaking with United Press International on condition of anonymity said the Chinese military does not have the capabilities to back up its war of words on the battlefield.

"They've got plenty of missiles aimed at Taiwan that can do damage, but the PLA doesn't have the means of amphibious assault to take the island," the source said, adding, "without this, preventing independence is problematic."


If you need more - let me know.

Next time you come running your mouth please back up your claims, or actually know what you are talking about



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Also, there pilots suck. Little training, airtime and experience. Also, airplanes require this little thing called fuel - US prevents fuel from getting in, thus planes cannot fly.


you know that there is little training first hand?
I seem to remember China managed to put a man into space, that requires training.
China are currently producing (earlier threads about this) an aircraft which is relatively advanced, stealthy, etc, not too sure because I havent read into it much.
Experience? China manage to intercept nearly all US spy flights over the area. Heck they managed (accidently) force down a US spy plane. So much for no experience.
The only reason why Beiijing is holding the future olympics games was to secure the release of those prisoners held by China.. Believe it or not. It's fact, why do you think they were released when they were?



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:33 PM
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can i say this why would they go to war?
theres no reason and no advantage
also do u really think that america or china would be that dum as to start a war?
hey u know who is the worlds best ,largest economical country is ? japan !



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
OK, on many points you are flat out WRONG.
A) China CAN'T "easily draft 1-1.2 billion people." That would be there whole population - women, children and elderly. They cannot draft that many people because they would only have 50 million guns. So you would have 1.15 billion people fighting with sticks and rocks against precision guided bombs, M1A2 tanks, stealth bombers, and apache helos? riiiiiiiiiiight


Your point? In World War 2 British Home Guard forces were armed with spears. Did you not read my bit about the factory? Japan's home guard was -everyone- on the island. If your home country is invaded you would fight to the death to defend it. Moron.

B) Maybe you should READ THE POST! We are assuming NO NUKING because there would be no real winner!

My bad.

C) What are you smoking. You are saying that the US will be the 3rd largest economy in 15 years? Please, may I see a link? What experts? lemme give you a few FACTS. US GDP - 10.208 TRILLION dollars. Chinese GDP - 1.159 TRILLION. Russian GDP - 310 BILLION. So you are telling me that Russia will pass the US....... Riiiiiiiiiigghhhhhhhht. so you are saying that the Russian economy will multiply by 33 times in the next 15 years? Hell, even China would have to grow by nearly 9 times to pass the US, and both of those times I am assuming the US economy doesn't grow.

Largest Economies

China 2nd largest economy
Oops! Your bad!

See the link here Nuff Said

Specifically, Exports to the US: $31136800000, Imports from the US: 6466400000 YOUR BAD AGAIN!

D) I don't know that this was the reason they put it into space - but who cares - IT IS NOT RELATIVE TO THIS THREAD.

E) China only one of 5 countries ehhhh? USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Isreal - I count 6 there, and there are more such as India. Plus, no one is "allowed" to have nukes or not - you can try and build them and once you have them then people don't mess with you. Countries can try to attack you before you get them though. Also, again - read the posts - we assume "no nuking"

There is a treaty that says only; USA, Russia, France, UK, and China are ALLOWED nuclear weapons. There is no treaty allowing Israel, India, etc nuclear weapons.
Read this
F) This is a joke right? First off, you assume there are 600 million places that can produce weapons. HAHAHAHAHA. you have no idea what you are talking about do you? you are just making stuff up. Where are they going to get these machines? they aren't there already. The US is not dependent on China for our high tech stuff - there are plenty of countries that would build plants and take the US money in return.

Hmm Have you not heard of home-made weapons? E.g. Fertilizer bombs, home-made pipe guns, etc.. The age of the machine was only fairly recent, guns and gunpowder were in production wayyy before machines came about. Heck, watch Matrix 3.

As for the US not backing Taiwan - we may or may not, depending on how far our president is willing to go in a war with them. But it doesn't matter you know why? Because China is scared of the US military. Even beyond that, they won't invade because THEY CAN'T. They simply don't have the logistics to do it.

Gee, and they said there were WMDs in Iraq. And that they'd get Osama Bin Laden
If you need more - let me know.

Next time you come running your mouth please back up your claims, or actually know what you are talking about



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by devilwasp
can i say this why would they go to war?
theres no reason and no advantage
also do u really think that america or china would be that dum as to start a war?
hey u know who is the worlds best ,largest economical country is ? japan !



No, I think America needs China too much for it to start a war. Read my above post, look at the money they spend on buying stuff from China. As someone said, they can replace the source, but that too would take time and money. Financial influences at the top of the US government mean that America would not invade China because the financial cost to lots of companies would smash profits/income. Yay for corruption



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:45 PM
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Chinese National Debt
American National Debt

America is 7.2 trillion US in debt.
China is 65 billion.
Oops, your bad again American Mad Man.
Go back to school! Prefably in a country with a decent, non-egocentric education system. You might learn something about the outside world.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by mtsquad
BTW, all you poster cautioning on Chinese Dragon, Billions of people, etc. One question.....

...who has the Chinese dominated over the last 400 years?
Great Britian? Japan? North Vietnam? India? The huns? hmm?

Answer: NOBODY


Who has China tried to dominate over the last 400 years?

Answer: NOBODY.
China, (I'm 1/2 Chinese) is a very happy nation enjoying keeping to itself. The chinese word for China is, translated literally, Middle Kingdom. Maps of china dating 4000 years ago show China in the middle and the only things outside being barbarian hoards. There is no want/need in China to go around invading people. There is no honour in it, a concept I would not expect a Westener to understand..



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by browha
Who has China tried to dominate over the last 400 years?

Answer: NOBODY.


What about Taiwan?

That's right, they are just a rebellious republic that will soon be brought back into the fold.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:56 PM
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You fool!
You ignorant fool!
Do you not realize that like 90% of Chinese population is farmers??
The country has more than enough open space to supply it's own, and other countries food.
They only import food because it is more financially viable to throw people into the technology production industries which can then be exported for more money than they spend on buying food!


More than 90% chinese have been farmers in the past - that didn't help them much. You should read something about the starvation in the past. Most of the African people are also farmers. The percentange of workers in agriculture has nothing to do with the food production ( especially if you are in war ). In USA only 2% people are farmers.
Also you should look at the chinese land map. Yes it's a big country. But how many areas are suitable for food production? There is a reason why there is only one child allowed.



posted on Apr, 20 2004 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by browha
Who has China tried to dominate over the last 400 years?

Answer: NOBODY.


What about Taiwan?

That's right, they are just a rebellious republic that will soon be brought back into the fold.



True, they are just a different governmental/political view of things and they moved over to Taiwan after being kicked off the Mainland by Mao





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